Israel - The Right to exist as a State?


View Poll Results: Does Israel have the right to exist with secure borders free from attack
NO 6 14.29%
Yes 31 73.81%
Not sure 5 11.90%
Voters: 42. You may not vote on this poll

ironsides
No Party Affiliation
#91
An ingenious example of speech and politics occurred recently in the United Nations Assembly and made the world community smile. A representative from Israel began: 'Before beginning my talk I want to tell you something about Moses. When he struck the rock and it brought forth water, he thought, 'What a good opportunity to have a bath!' He removed his clothes, put them aside on
the rock and entered the water. When he got out and wanted to dress, his
clothes had vanished. A Palestinian had stolen them.' The Palestinian representative jumped up furiously and shouted, 'What are you talking about? The Palestinians weren't there then.'
The Israeli representative smiled and said, 'And now that we have made that clear, I will begin my speech.
 
Liberalman
Free Thinker
#92
Quote: Originally Posted by earth_as_one View Post

I disagree and think Israel should be held to their agreement.

Also this statement is another common misperception:

In 1967 Israel attacked their neighbors without warning. Israel initiated that war, not its neighbors. I suggest you read up on it:

It wasn't exactly a sneak attack since tensions had been escalating in the region for some time. But Israel initiated that war without without warning. Israeli apologists have distorted the facts regarding the 1967 war from a Pearl Harbor like attack into some sort of self defense.

Most of what people commonly believe about Israel/Zionism is not actually true. The more you dig into Israel's history, the more you discover that many commonly held beliefs regarding this conflict are actually manipulated misperceptions.

Sorry don't agree what has been fought for stays.

Maybe you should convince the Americans to give back the land to the British, Mexico and the Indians that will never happen so all Palistinians have to lay down their weapons and Israel will take them in and everybody wins
 
MHz
#93
Quote: Originally Posted by EagleSmack View Post

Really? They aren't doing a very good job then are they?


So if the history books show 10M Palestinians were all killed off in 10 years then that would be a genocide, but if 15 M are killed off in 100 years then it is not a genocide, even though they crease to exist as a people?

Surely you wouldn't people to start claiming the Jews still had more than half their population alive after WWII so that was not really a genocide, what they suffered was more like a massacre . The missing tribes of Indians in the Americas would define what genocide looks like, the greatly reduced in numbers would be a testament to what a massacre looks like.

Quote: Originally Posted by ironsides View Post

An ingenious example of speech and politics occurred recently in the United Nations Assembly and made the world community smile. A representative from Israel began: 'Before beginning my talk I want to tell you something about Moses. When he struck the rock and it brought forth water, he thought, 'What a good opportunity to have a bath!' He removed his clothes, put them aside on
the rock and entered the water. When he got out and wanted to dress, his
clothes had vanished. A Palestinian had stolen them.' The Palestinian representative jumped up furiously and shouted, 'What are you talking about? The Palestinians weren't there then.'
The Israeli representative smiled and said, 'And now that we have made that clear, I will begin my speech.


Is this the piece of land he was laying claim to? lol
The Exodus Route: Rephidim (Meribah)

That would certainly solve everything in a hurry. The rock that was struck happened during the wandering in the desert as part of the 40 yeras in the desert before trekking towards the promised land. (Exodus:17) There should have been only Israel around, Palestinians would not have been around that particular area, they would have been further north in...... wait for it ....Palestine.

Joe:3:4:
Yea,
and what have ye to do with me,
O Tyre,
and Zidon,
and all the coasts of Palestine?
will ye render me a recompence?
and if ye recompence me,
swiftly and speedily will I return your recompence upon your own head;

There were people there even when Abraham first journeyed there.
 
earth_as_one
#94
Quote: Originally Posted by Dexter Sinister View Post

Yes it is. The ancestors of today's Jews took over that territory by force of arms in biblical times and the scrapping has been going on ever since. Not constantly, I agree, but pretty steadily. You're focusing on Zionism specifically, I'm talking about ethnic and internecine conflict in that area more generally, which has indeed been going on for thousands of years.

What can I say Dexter? With all respect, you have a very common misperception about what was going on in Palestine before Zionism.

Except for a brief Egyption invasion/occupation from 1831-1841, this area saw no war or internecine conflict from 1516 until 1917. That's 400 years of peace, more or less. When the British took over this area, they made the Balfour declaration, indicating they planned to hand Palestine over to Zionists. As Jewish immigration increased so did Arab hostility until Arabs openly revolted in 1936.

Palestine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

But if you still believe this area was violent, I have an open mind. Convince me. List the invasions and battles which took place in Palestine while it was controlled by the Ottomans. Good luck looking for something that didn't happen!
 
ironsides
No Party Affiliation
#95
Again you present only half truths, Yes Israel launched a preemptive 6/5.67 against Egypt and Syria. What you failed to mention was that there had been many cross border raids by Egypt and Syria prior to the strike and that Egypt had amassed 1,000 tanks and nearly 100,000 on the Israeli border. Syria opened a major border clash with Israel 4/7/67. So called UN Peacekeepers the cowards they are snuck away from the Egyptian border posts they occupied that May. Leaving it open for a Egyptian attack. "On June 3, days before the war, Egypt flew to Amman two battalions of commandos tasked with infiltrating Israel's borders and engaging in attacks and bombings so as to draw IDF into a Jordanian front and ease the pressure on the Egyptians. Soviet-made artillery and Egyptian military supplies and crews were also flown to Jordan"

Jordan was drawn into the conflict because of treaties with Egypt and Syria. What everyone seems to forget is that on June 3rd 1967 Iraq, Sudan, Kuwait and Algeria, began mobilizing their armed forces. War was about to happen, Israel thru brilliant planning struck first.
 
earth_as_one
#96
Suffice to say Israel attacked first and without warning.

You accuse me of half truths IS??? I was just pointing out that Israel initiated that war which is true. If you want more details I can give it. But unlike you I'll comment on what BOTH sides did. You only mention what Israel's Arab neighbors did, which is only half the truth.

Yes there were cross border raids. Palestinian guerillas would launch small cross border raids into Israel and Israel would attack their camps on the other side of the borders. That had been going on for years. The biggest raid was when Israel attacked a series of dams in Syria in March, May, and August 1965, perpetuating a prolonged chain of border violence that linked directly to the events leading to war. Mind you Syria was diverting the Jordan river...

Yes there was a military buildup, on both sides of the border. And Egypt's President made a number of beligerent statements and threats as well as closed the straights of Tiran to all boats carrying strategic materials and goods to Israel.

But Israel was not attacked first as per the common misperception. Israel inititated the war and making it sound like self defense is plain wrong. Israel attacked with overwhleming force suddenly and without warning and kept all the land they conquered. Also consider this:

Quote:

...Nine years later, Moshe Dayan, the Israeli defense minister at the time of the war, stated in an interview not published until 1997 that Israeli policy on the Syrian border between 1949 and 1967 consisted of "snatching bits of territory and holding on to it until the enemy despairs and gives it to us." About events on the Israeli-Syrian border he said:[43][44][45][46]

After all, I know how at least 80 percent of the clashes there started. In my opinion, more than 80 percent, but let's talk about 80 percent. It went this way: We would send a tractor to plow some area where it wasn't possible to do anything, in the demilitarized area, and knew in advance that the Syrians would start to shoot. If they didn't shoot, we would tell the tractor to advance farther, until in the end the Syrians would get annoyed and shoot. And then we would use artillery and later the air force also, and that's how it was. I did that, and Laskov and Czera did that, and Yitzhak did that, but it seemed to me that the person who most enjoyed these games was Dado. We thought that we could change the lines of the ceasefire accords by military actions that were less than war. That is, to seize some territory and hold it until the enemy despairs and gives it to us.

Six-Day War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So its clear that Israel was playing games in order to provoke and justify a war. Israel planned all along to use their superior military force to invade, occupy and annex more land. Hardly an example of self defense.
Last edited by earth_as_one; Feb 2nd, 2010 at 10:03 AM..
 
EagleSmack
#97
Quote: Originally Posted by earth_as_one View Post

Suffice to say Israel attacked first and without warning.

Suffice to say that Israel was going to be attacked. You don't evict a UN Peace Keeping Force, mass 100,000 troops and 1000 tanks on a nations border for show. It is no secret that war was coming and Israel was not going to just hope that it didn't. try reading real history instead of foolish propaganda. Egypt and Syria were readying for war and the whole world knew it.

Quote:

Yes there was a military buildup, on both sides of the border. And Egypt's President made a number of beligerent statements and threats as well as closed the straights of Tiran to all boats carrying strategic materials and goods to Israel.

As in blockade...an act of war.

Quote:

But Israel was not attacked first as per the common misperception. Israel inititated the war and making it sound like self defense is plain wrong. Israel attacked with overwhleming force suddenly and without warning and kept all the land they conquered.

It is no common misinterpetation that Israel attacked first. It is a fact. To say they attacked with overwhelming force is a misconception as the Israelis were outnumbered and outgunned.

They were not going to sit on their butts and they took the initiative. The armies of Syria and Egypt were massing for a reason...war. Israel sent it's whole air force after both countries leaving only a small CAP above Israel and seized air control and then pushed the armies of Egypt back into the Suez, the Syrian armies off the Golan Heights, and the Jordanians back from the West Bank. Jordan lost most of all and they were bullied into war.

Quote:

So its clear that Israel was playing games in order to provoke and justify a war. Israel planned all along to use their superior military force to invade, occupy and annex more land. Hardly an example of self defense.

No it was clear that the Arab countries were provoking a war.

Quote:

At the end of May 1967, Jordanian forces were given to the command of an Egyptian general, Abdul Munim Riad . [88] On the same day, Nasser proclaimed: "The armies of Egypt, Jordan and Syria are poised on the borders of Israel ... to face the challenge, while standing behind us are the armies of Iraq , Algeria , Kuwait , Sudan and the whole Arab nation. This act will astound the world. Today they will know that the Arabs are arranged for battle, the critical hour has arrived. We have reached the stage of serious action and not of more declarations. " [89]

To bad, so sad. A smaller Israeli force whipped a much larger Arab force completely. It was a rout.

Hey maybe you can talk about the Yom Kippur War! Any good propoganda on that?
 
EagleSmack
#98


Pre- war cartoon...1967.

CASE CLOSED
 
EagleSmack
#99
Six Day War Strength

Israel- 264K Troops, 800 Tanks, 300 Combat aircraft

Arab States- 577K Troops, 2,500 Tanks, 957 Combat aircraft

Overwhelming Force?
 
MHz
#100
[quote=EagleSmack;1213247
No it was clear that the Arab countries were provoking a war. [/quote]
The Nov.13 incident was not a small incident

Aug 15, 1966 Israeli patrol boat run ashore in DMZ on Eastern shore of lake Galilee is attacked by Syrian air force and artillery. Israel air force downs two MiGs, but the boat must be salvaged at night due to persistent artillery fire. Nov 9, 1966 Egypt and Syria sign defense treaty. This date is also given as Nov. 4. A secret codicil promised that Egypt would attack Israel in the south if Israel attacked Syria. Nov 10, 1966 Three Israeli soldiers are killed by a land mine on an Israeli patrol road near the the border, south of Hebron. King Hussein sends an apology via US ambassador Walworth Barbour, but Barbour fails to deliver the apology. Nov 13, 1966 Samu' raid: Israeli troops retaliate for the November 10 killing of 3 Israeli soldiers by a mine planted on a patrol road. The attack unexpectedly runs into a column of Jordan Legion soldiers, kills 15 Jordanian soldiers and 3 civilians, & dynamite 125 houses in as Samu according to UN or about 40 according to Israelis. near Hebron; in response to the Israel is censured by SCR228 (25 Nov 66), but there is no military response from Amman. This leads to recriminations in the Israeli government, which had intended a smaller scale raid, and Palestinian anger and clashes with Jordanian security forces throughout West Bank, especially in Nablus where the army had to intervene. The PLO gains support. Dec 14, 1966 Egyptian Marshal Hakim Amer cables Nasser from Pakistan, recommending closing the straits of Tiran to Israeli shipping and dismissing the UNEF force from Gaza. Jan -March 1967 Over 270 border "incidents" cause rising concern in Israel. March 3 - Landmine injures tractorist in Kibbutz Shamir. March 12, explosion on train tracks near Kibbutz Lahav. March 26, 2 Palestinians killed trying to demolish a water pump near Arad. April 7, 1967 Israelis respond to intensive Syrian shelling of DMZ and and Israeli villages and kibbutzim with IAF raid. An air battle involving about 130 aircraft developed. Israelis down 6 MiG 21 fighters, 2 over the Golan and 4 over Damascus. May 11, 1967 Israeli PM Eshkol states, "In view of the 14 incidents in the past month alone it is possible that we will have to adopt measures no less drastic than those of April 7." UPI circulated a rumor (May 12) that Israel was trying to topple the Syrian regime. The incidents included shelling, terror attacks and attempted infiltration of a Syrian agent to blow up locations in Jerusalem. May 12, 1967 Remarks by Yitzhak Rabin interpreted as provocative against Syria. Rabin is rebuked by Eshkol. May 13, 1967 Soviets inform Anwar Sadat in Moscow that Israel is massing 10-12 brigades in preparation for an attack on Syria, supposedly to take place May 17. The information is false, as were several similar previous Soviet warnings. May 14, 1967 First reports of Egyptian troop movements into Sinai. http://www.zionism-israel.com/his/six_day_war_timeline.htm

You also seem to be skipping the original crime, Jews making war against Arab civilians for more than 5 months prior to the war of independence way back. Do you understand that those are war-crimes and that was the start of the current conflict.
It would seem that if a crime can go 20 years without prosecution the it ceases to be a crime. Israel had been practicing for the 6 day war since '65.
 
petros
#101
Now that Christianity has been "wiped off the map" in Israel....who is to blame?

Come all you AnteSemites who is to blame?
 
ironsides
No Party Affiliation
#102
Quote: Originally Posted by MHz View Post

You also seem to be skipping the original crime, Jews making war against Arab civilians for more than 5 months prior to the war of independence way back. Do you understand that those are war-crimes and that was the start of the current conflict.
It would seem that if a crime can go 20 years without prosecution the it ceases to be a crime. Israel had been practicing for the 6 day war since '65.

"Israel had been practicing for the 6 day war since '65." Yes, and they did a pretty good job, think I'll just sit back while those who want to destroy me build up and get ready. Hardly, they cannot afford to lose even once.
Israel really did not have any other option once the mighty United Nations bugged out. Even if Israel gave all the land reclaimed since 1948 back, you would still find fault with them. Israel will destroy the Palestinians and the Arab nations totally if there is another war.

I would like to see a peaceful solution also, but not at the expense of another war that you are encouraging, because that is the only way you will see a solution, and you won't like the results again.
 
darkbeaver
Republican
#103
Quote: Originally Posted by Dexter Sinister View Post

Yes I do. You don't appear to know the difference between reason in the sense of logic, and reason in the sense of an explanation.

Yes I do. Neither the noun or verb reason is a substitute for cause.
 
darkbeaver
Republican
#104
Quote: Originally Posted by petros View Post

Now that Christianity has been "wiped off the map" in Israel....who is to blame?

Come all you AnteSemites who is to blame?

Those damn IslamoNazis?
 
petros
#105
Quote: Originally Posted by darkbeaver View Post

Those damn IslamoNazis?

Islamo nazis bombed the Church of the Nativity with an F16 too?
 
darkbeaver
Republican
#106
They don't have f16s, wait a minute you can't mean the most moral army the world has ever seen.
 
petros
#107
The one that has more UN charges than all the other nations combined in the entire history of the UN or the one that gave them the plane, ammunition, training and maintenance on the backs of their taxpayers while vetoing every legitimate UN claim filed to the Security Counsel leaving the entire world without any say?
 
Goober
Free Thinker
#108
Quote: Originally Posted by petros View Post

Now that Christianity has been "wiped off the map" in Israel....who is to blame?

Come all you AnteSemites who is to blame?

Went looking for demographics and could not find to much info -do you have stats??
 
petros
#109
Quote: Originally Posted by Goober View Post

Went looking for demographics and could not find to much info -do you have stats??

Now and then type stats? Number of Christians killed by Israel? Number of those who fled to the borderlands of Lebanon, Jordan, Egypt? Number of Christians that still try to survive under Israeli oppression and occupation in West Bank and Gaza? The number of Christians in Israeli prisons?
 
MHz
#110
Quote: Originally Posted by ironsides View Post

"Israel had been practicing for the 6 day war since '65." Yes, and they did a pretty good job, think I'll just sit back while those who want to destroy me build up and get ready. Hardly, they cannot afford to lose even once.
Israel really did not have any other option once the mighty United Nations bugged out. Even if Israel gave all the land reclaimed since 1948 back, you would still find fault with them. Israel will destroy the Palestinians and the Arab nations totally if there is another war.

I would like to see a peaceful solution also, but not at the expense of another war that you are encouraging, because that is the only way you will see a solution, and you won't like the results again.

You might but your country sure doesn't. The Jews have been at continuous war sine the UN came up with their partition plan. (Nov, 47)You don't need a world class army to go raiding tiny villages in the middle of the night. My may of '48 the Israeli military controlled a certain amount of area already. That means they were cleansed of Arabs. The 'war' was because Israel declared that any Arabs that were made refugees in that time frame lost all rights to return home. A war-crimes trial would have given the land back to the refugees. The 'War of Independance' was more of the same but on a larger scale. The UN document was in breech (not to the benefit of the Jews) the moment the terrorizing of Arab villagers began the lost their right to the land .... again.



Palestine 1947 District And District Centers
 
petros
#111
Too much **** just ain't right. When will there be justice?

Quote:

On 29 March 2002, Israel began what it called "Operation Defensive Shield", an unprecedented invasion of Palestinian towns to "defeat the infrastructure of Palestinian terror in all its parts and components" according to the Israeli Cabinet Communique that announced the massive military operation.

At approximately 2:00 a.m. on 2 April 2002, Israeli occupation forces invaded the neighbouring towns of Bethlehem, Beit Jala, and Beit Sahour, according to the Palestinian Center for Human Rights:

"using approximately 250 tanks and armored personnel carriers, F-16 fighter jets, and Apache gunships. At approximately 04:30, they seized full control over the three cities, except the Old Town. In the invasion, which was accompanied by indiscriminate shelling, 60-year-old �Aaboud al-�Ameri, from Bethlehem, a guard of a building in Beit Sahour, was killed.

At approximately 10:15, Israeli occupation forces fired three artillery shells at the house of Khaled Ibrahim �Aabda, 38. He and his mother, Sumaia Hussein �Aabda, 60, were killed by shrapnel. Israeli forces did not allow the evacuation of the bodies to hospital or their burial. The bodies remained with other residents of the house, including children, in the same room.

At approximately 11:30, Israeli occupation forces shelled Santa Maria Church in al-Madbasa neighborhood. A number of priests and nuns were wounded, including Father Jack As�ad, a Palestinian who holds the Italian citizenship, who was seriously wounded.

In the afternoon, three Palestinian gunmen were killed while confronting an invasion by Israeli occupation forces of a small neighborhood in Bethlehem... In addition, 18-year-old 'Eissa Da'bous, from Bethlehem, was killed by a live bullet in the head, while he was in front of his house in the same area."
Trapped between advancing Israeli forces in the center of Bethlehem, approximately 200 Palestinians -- mostly civilians and policeman, along with some gunmen from local Fatah militias and Christian clergy -- took refuge in the Church of the Nativity, the Christian holy site built over the traditional location where Jesus Christ was born. Palestinians had last sought refuge in the church during Israel's occupation of the West Bank in 1967.

Anton Salman, a member of the Antonius Society, a humanitarian group in Bethlehem, spoke to CNN about the motivations of those who sought refuge in the church:

CNN/KAGAN: How many people are inside the church?

SALMAN: It's around 200.

CNN/KAGAN: Are we talking men, women, children?

SALMAN: Yes, mostly men.

CNN/KAGAN: Are they Palestinian gunmen?

SALMAN: They are from the Palestinian police and ... mostly from the Palestinian Authority police, who ran away to the Church of the Nativity to implore protection inside the church after [unintelligible] was bombed and shot at by Israeli tanks and soldiers. And they saw their mosque, Umar, which is across from the Church of the Nativity, bombed. They were afraid, and they looked for a place to be secure. So they found the only way; they ran to the church and found a place to stay.

CNN/KAGAN: They not only picked a secure place, they picked one of most holy places in the world to Christians and put that in peril. Do they realize that?

SALMAN: We here understand our history, and that the Church of the Nativity [has been a sacred] place to the people during all wars. ... So from this point, they thought that the Church of the Nativity was a safer place to enter and ... entered the church looking for protection. They are still inside the church.

( Man details situation in Church of the Nativity , CNN.com, 3 April 2002.)

 
Goober
Free Thinker
#112
Quote: Originally Posted by petros View Post

Now and then type stats? Number of Christians killed by Israel? Number of those who fled to the borderlands of Lebanon, Jordan, Egypt? Number of Christians that still try to survive under Israeli oppression and occupation in West Bank and Gaza? The number of Christians in Israeli prisons?

Demographics over the past 50 -100 years based upon religion - How many jews, Muslims, Druze, Christians -
 
petros
#113
Quote:

You don't need a world class army to go raiding tiny villages in the middle of the night.

Just make sure to paint your door with lamb's blood.
 
MHz
#114
Quote: Originally Posted by Goober View Post

Went looking for demographics and could not find to much info -do you have stats??

If they have made us extinct there why would there be any stats?

You may have heard the propaganda that God will curse those who curse Israel (the reality is that was said to Abraham not Israel) ... if not oh well, there is one in the NT about a Christian being killed though being revenged by God. That would seem to mean that if a Jew (who has a promise to be alive when Christ returns) would seem to lose that gift if he saw himself having immunity to having sins forgiven.

2Th:1:5:
Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God,
that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:
2Th:1:6:
Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
2Th:1:7:
And to you who are troubled rest with us,
when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th:1:8:
In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God,
and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th:1:9:
Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord,
and from the glory of his power;

I'm not sure how a Jew could be exempted really, especially since this was written when Jewish persecution of Christians was already going strong.
 
petros
#115
Quote: Originally Posted by Goober View Post

Demographics over the past 50 -100 years based upon religion - How many jews, Muslims, Druze, Christians -

Recent history
See also: Bethlehem#Christian_population

Palestinian Christians celebrating the Eve of the Epiphany (Paramony) at Bethabara , on the Western bank of the Jordan River ( West Bank , near Jericho ), in Eastern Orthodox tradition.


The proportions of Christians in the Palestinian territories is such that they only constitute around one in seventy-five residents. [11] In May, Reuters reported that 33,000 - 40,000 Christians remained in the West Bank, with around 17,000 following the Roman Catholic tradition and most of the rest following the Greek Orthodox church. [12] Both Bethlehem and Nazareth , which were once overwhelmingly Christian, now have strong Muslim majorities. Today about three-quarters of all Bethlehem Christians live abroad, and more Jerusalem Christians live in Sydney , Australia than in Jerusalem. Indeed, Christians now comprise just 2.5 percent of the population Jerusalem, they once comprised around 40%, those remaining include a few born in the Old City when Christians there constituted a majority. [13]
In a 2007 letter from Congressman Henry Hyde to President George W. Bush , Hyde stated that "the Christian community is being crushed in the mill of the bitter Israeli-Palestinian conflict" and that expanding Jewish settlements in the West Bank and East Jerusalem were "irreversibly damaging the dwindling Christian community." [14] [15]
Most Christians in Gaza blame the Israeli occupation pre-2005, the current siege on the city and the war on Gaza 2009 to be the reason for their Exodus from Gaza. During the recent war on Gaza, two churches, Baptist and Catholic, were slightly damaged by Israeli shelling, and many Christians including 15 year old Christine Turk [16] , lost their lives during the Gaza offensive. There had been reported attacks on Palestinian Christians in Gaza from small Muslim extremist groups, most notably Ramy Ayyad, but Gaza Pastor Manuel Musallam doubts the attacks were religiously motivated [17]
 
MHz
#116
Quote: Originally Posted by petros View Post

Just make sure to paint your door with lamb's blood.

They painted the villages with blood all right.
 
Goober
Free Thinker
#117
Quote: Originally Posted by MHz View Post

They painted the villages with blood all right.

I will post this again as I had no replies - Open question I see The statement by Canaduh as clearly Racist - Am I wrong, right or prejudiced? Canaduh

Your quote "the fact they dont own the media like the jews do. Every time the Israels do something or someone speaks out against them they play the holocaust get out of jail free card".
The Native American "holocaust" happened before the media could latch onto it, not to mention the fact they dont own the media like the jews do. Every time the Israels do something or someone speaks out against them they play the holocaust get out of jail free card.
 
Colpy
Conservative
#118
Quote: Originally Posted by earth_as_one View Post

Suffice to say Israel attacked first and without warning.

You accuse me of half truths IS??? I was just pointing out that Israel initiated that war which is true. If you want more details I can give it. But unlike you I'll comment on what BOTH sides did. You only mention what Israel's Arab neighbors did, which is only half the truth.

Yes there were cross border raids. Palestinian guerillas would launch small cross border raids into Israel and Israel would attack their camps on the other side of the borders. That had been going on for years. The biggest raid was when Israel attacked a series of dams in Syria in March, May, and August 1965, perpetuating a prolonged chain of border violence that linked directly to the events leading to war. Mind you Syria was diverting the Jordan river...

Yes there was a military buildup, on both sides of the border. And Egypt's President made a number of beligerent statements and threats as well as closed the straights of Tiran to all boats carrying strategic materials and goods to Israel.

But Israel was not attacked first as per the common misperception. Israel inititated the war and making it sound like self defense is plain wrong. Israel attacked with overwhleming force suddenly and without warning and kept all the land they conquered. Also consider this:

So its clear that Israel was playing games in order to provoke and justify a war. Israel planned all along to use their superior military force to invade, occupy and annex more land. Hardly an example of self defense.

Crap.

Israel is TINY. Egypt telegraphed her intention of invasion in numerous ways.....including massing "overwhelming force" on Israel's border. Israel decided to attack for two reasons:

1. Much better to meet the enemy in Sinai and fight on their territory, than to do the fighting in Israel itself. This avoids destruction of most of the nation.....

2. Hopefully a surprize attack would manage to destroy enemy air assets on the ground.....which would simply not have happened had they waited to be attacked.

3. Israel simply can not mobilize and then wait around for days or weeks for the war to start on the enemy's timetable......in a conventional total war in Israel.....EVERYTHING grinds to a halt because everybody is defending the nation.

Israel's pre-emptive strike was just that.........and absolutely a legitimate action, necessary to the preservation of the state.

Which is, of course, why you hate it so much.

If i see someone charging at me, gun in hand, I don't have to wait until they step on my property or shoot me before I respond......
 
TenPenny
#119
Quote: Originally Posted by Colpy View Post

Israel's pre-emptive strike was just that.........and absolutely a legitimate action, necessary to the preservation of the state.
.

I seem to recall reading the autobiography of Queen Noor, of Jordan, who mentioned the pre-emptive strike in her book; apparently, the Jordanians had some reports that the Egyptian forces had been decimated, and were thinking of not attacking, but the official sources from Egypt insisted that the Israelis were slaughtered, so the Jordanians went ahead with their part...only to be hammered in return.
 
petros
#120
Quote: Originally Posted by Goober View Post

I will post this again as I had no replies - Open question I see The statement by Canaduh as clearly Racist - Am I wrong, right or prejudiced? Canaduh

Your quote "the fact they dont own the media like the jews do. Every time the Israels do something or someone speaks out against them they play the holocaust get out of jail free card".
The Native American "holocaust" happened before the media could latch onto it, not to mention the fact they dont own the media like the jews do. Every time the Israels do something or someone speaks out against them they play the holocaust get out of jail free card.

Should the Ukrainian Govt alter historic Soviet documents and remove the names the the Jews who planned and partook in the Holodomor just because it will look bad for Jews?


Quote:

KIEV, Ukraine (JTA) – A Jewish group in Ukraine is objecting to a criminal case brought over the “Great Famine” committed in the 1930s.
The nation’s security service is pressing the case against a list of former Soviet officials accused of committing the Holodomor, which caused the deaths of millions in Ukraine in 1932-33. Most of the names on the list were Jewish.

Ukrainian lawmaker Aleksandr Feldman, leader of the Ukrainian Jewish Committee, said last week that it was “a farce” to press the case.
“All organizers of the Great Famine are dead,” he said.
Last July, the Ukrainian Security Service released a list of high-ranking Soviet state and Communist Party officials – as well as officials from NKVD, the police force of Soviet Russia – that essentially blamed Jews and Latvians responsible for perpetrating and executing the famine because most of the names on the list were Jewish.
The Ukrainian Jewish Committee called on the secret service to revise the list, which incited interethnic hatred, in order to clear up the “inaccuracy.”
Feldman believes there is a danger that the “Holodomor Affair” materials are being used for political purposes.
In late May, security service head Valentin Nalivaychenko claimed at a meeting with representatives of the World Congress of Ukrainians that “Ukraine has collected enough evidence to bring a criminal case regarding the famine, which was artificially created by the Bolshevik regime and caused mass death of citizens.”
Through the World Congress of Ukrainians, Nalivaychenko turned to leading foreign lawyers with a request to help find out the circumstances connected with preparing and committing the genocide.

 

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