The Quebec "nation" should separate... (Let Quebec Separate)


masalla
#1
The Quebec "nation" should separate, and let the rest of Canada get on with it. But don't expect subsidies from Ottawa, or money and MPs.
Do they really believe that when they are gone, that the Americans will buy their beans with ONLY French on the label?
Do they really believe that France won't rape them the minute they are 'free'?
Go for it, Quebec. Separate. Go on your own. Puleeese.
 
Andem
Free Thinker
#2
France would probably have nothing much to do with Québec after a sucession. Right now, they give money to Québec and it's strange really that the only ones who agree with giving Québec money are the right wingers. Québec is actually socialist. The French (France) socialsts want nothing to do with Québec. Strange.


Anyways, it's a fact to France would not help Québec very as they can't! France needs the money they have.
 
masalla
#3
Your opinion about France. Not mine. You weren't here when De Gaulle shouted Vive Quebec Libre! I' m not saying they would HELP Quebec, only USE them for what they wanted. The French consider Quebeckers to be backward indians in Canada.
 
Andem
Free Thinker
#4
Sorry.. Had to split this topic.



I have no doubt, though, that France would probably use Québec for their own purposes. Stuff like increased trade and further economic integration should Canada refuse to continue it's current relationship with the province.

Canada should not continue the economic relationship that the separatists want. I don't really think they will ever separate anyways. They would die.
 
Vincent_2002
#5
I agree with you andem.

Our province has seen all of the money and all of the investments fly to T. Dot. and other cities in Canada where there is no threat of seperation.

I would want Canada to continue agreements with Quebec if we seperate. I do not want us to but we will die if we dont continue something with Canada.
 
Andem
Free Thinker
#6
Vincent, have you ever considered moving to Toronto or out east, out west, wherever, if Québec separates? A lot of my friends when I lived back in Montréal said they would get up and move to Toronto if they left. I don't want them to leave... but if there's that much of a threat, it's probably the best idea to get up and leave. Especially when your job and standard of living is at risk.
 
peapod
#7
This is to funny! or is it? When I was tending to green matters of my own, another little group were doing their kind of protesting. I paid them a visit...will post pics later....on to my point! Well it just so happens this little group of tree huggers were French! thats right! they even had their little blue flag hanging! I have the picture to prove it! Well I said to them...little la belle province tree huggers, what are you doing here trying to help our trees? well they said...this is canada...they are our trees to! ....I think you got something there Pierre
 
Isengard
#8
Another useless thread about separatists in Quebec... Why do we always have to go around in circle and restart that old useless debate?? I live in Quebec btw, I'm tired of people from other provinces telling us to leave and let them alone... Speaking of De Gaulle, the man was here 40 years ago, do you think that we got stucked there and are still living in the sixties? You can't resume France to De Gaulle anyway. What that guy did was just to make people talk, we are over that speech since a long time...
 
peapod
#9
Isengard,
grumpy this morning are you? you should grab a starbucks Why don't you go over to chit chat and post some good topic! I don't see you coming up with anything to type about, except your trip to the great barrier reef. Come on lets hear something from ya.
Ever hug a tree?
 
Isengard
#10
Guess I'll go out and enjoy the weather a bit, that will be more constructive than to talk about separation. Maybe I'Ll be back with some interesting things to talk about!
 
Andem
Free Thinker
#11
I agree with Isengard, though.


The separation thing is a flawed idea and makes no sense. We all know it will never separate but it's annoying that some people from other parts of the country are like “Get the hell out!”

It's rude and uncalled for, really.

Most people don't realise that it's a minority who want to separate and the ones who do want it are for a large part, uneducated. (No, I'm not refering to you Numure.) Just a lot of them don't know what they're talking about.
 
gnuman
#12
The issue here is that De Gaulle did not mean it in that respect that Quebec should separate and its only the hardliner separatists that interpreted that way.

You do not think of the hardships people who had to go through Referendum #1 with Levesque people didn't move their money out of Quebec for the fear that they would keep it all in Quebec?
 
T. Rex
#13
Let em separate. I don't care anymore, in fact I want Alberta to separate and join the states. There is no more here for us and we are always alienated. I'm all for a stronger Canada but when Quebec gets up and goes I will vote YES if Alberta ever has a referendum. Ottawa takes and it never gives back. That is why we need change.
 
Isengard
#14
Quote: Originally Posted by T. Rex

Let em separate. I don't care anymore, in fact I want Alberta to separate and join the states. There is no more here for us and we are always alienated. I'm all for a stronger Canada but when Quebec gets up and goes I will vote YES if Alberta ever has a referendum. Ottawa takes and it never gives back. That is why we need change.

Surely we'll move forward with speech like yours... Why wait for the separation when you can move right now?
 
Numure
#15
Quote: Originally Posted by Isengard

Another useless thread about separatists in Quebec... Why do we always have to go around in circle and restart that old useless debate?? I live in Quebec btw, I'm tired of people from other provinces telling us to leave and let them alone... Speaking of De Gaulle, the man was here 40 years ago, do you think that we got stucked there and are still living in the sixties? You can't resume France to De Gaulle anyway. What that guy did was just to make people talk, we are over that speech since a long time...

Well.. vive le Québec Libre hasnt left us... Listen to what people still say in High Schools, CÉGEPs and Universities... A full generation of majority seperatists, even the majority of immigrants. This is great, and nice for the futur. We are already collaborating with France on so many issues outside of the great Canada its amasing... Agreements still exist between France and Québec in the event of seperation.

Wanna know from where the majority of immigrants to Québec come from? France. And its growing each year. Thousands and Thousands of French citizens moving to join "Les cousins Québécois".

When you don't know what you're talking about, say nothing Andem :P.
 
Numure
#16
Quote: Originally Posted by Isengard

Quote: Originally Posted by T. Rex

Let em separate. I don't care anymore, in fact I want Alberta to separate and join the states. There is no more here for us and we are always alienated. I'm all for a stronger Canada but when Quebec gets up and goes I will vote YES if Alberta ever has a referendum. Ottawa takes and it never gives back. That is why we need change.

Surely we'll move forward with speech like yours... Why wait for the separation when you can move right now?

He has a point. The big problem, and the core reason why we wish to seperate, is the Federal Goverment of Canada. The model we live under won't work for long.
 
Rick van Opbergen
#17
Can Quebec survive if it seperates from the rest of Canada?
 
Numure
#18
Quote: Originally Posted by Rick van Opbergen

Can Quebec survive if it seperates from the rest of Canada?

I believe we can. It will be hard at first, but we can survive and even expand further and grow much more in the internationnal community. Right now, we are limited by this "Federal Union". Dominated by a culture (Anglo-Saxons) that do not have the same values as us. We do not fight for the same issues. Though we do have much in common, we hae just as much that is different.

I do think Canada still has a chance to stay United. But for that, much needs to change. Canada cannot stay as a Federal model of goverment, as that does not allow different cultures to grow and prosper together.
 
Martin Le Acadien
#19
Quote: Originally Posted by Rick van Opbergen

Can Quebec survive if it seperates from the rest of Canada?

The answer has already been written if you look to the South! The Confederate States of America tried to break away from the Central Federal Government and failed! Yes, I know there was a civil war and some old dodering fools still debate it on courthouse Lawns here in the South! But the central question is whether or not a province or state can break away from the Federal Realm and go it alone! The Tax and Military system of the South caused its own defeat as well as the lack of infastructure needed to build a nation!

Is Quebec ready to assume these functions?
1. Diplomatic infastructure (Embassies, ambassadors, treatys,
UN membership etc.)
2. Run the postal and communications systems as per the ITU?
3. Develop a currency and banking system?
4. Trade issues such as NAFTA, Hydroelectric Power, border protection and Customs.
5. Defense commitments.
6. Extra territorality issues such as traffic between the maritimes and Ontario.
7. First Nation treaties and resposibilities, especially in the North Country.

From the South looking North, the Maritimes could be politically isolated and with the economy of Maritimes never being its strong suit, what would happen if the Federal Hegemony would lead to neglect or abandonment?

The provinces of Ontario, Alberta and British Columbia could pull the new Canada's Plough with its strong economies but what about the marginally weak areas where Federal Subsidies mean the difference between profit or loss on the personal scale?

To join the US is almost impossible T. Rex considering what it would take to create an Organic Act! With the National Debt of the US approaching 7 Trillion Dollars we have some tough decisions to make here and the assumption of any more territory is highly unlikely. (IRAQ is being cut loose as fast as we can put the tanks in reverse and get some govt trained to take over, we don't need 95 million Iraqi-americans) Our Trust Territory in the Pacific, The Republic of the Marshall Islands has been given its freedom as per the UN mandate and they still want to be part of the US, boy are we having PUMP money in those islands! They still use the US Postal system, US currency and the Prime Minister of the Republic has sent Washington a letter asking for Continued Status as a Trust Territory, please send money.

I hate to dispel the notion the US is looking for more territory, but the sense on the street says we have enough and Canada would probably have to merge to take us over if anything went terribly wrong. We don't need more politicians just added to our woes and especially if Quebec decides to break up the 2 country system which keeps North America in check with a system that has worked for 200 years+.
 
Rick van Opbergen
#20
That were some great answers! Next question: does a majority of the Québecois support independence from Canada?
 
Numure
#21
Quote: Originally Posted by Rick van Opbergen

That were some great answers! Next question: does a majority of the Québecois support independence from Canada?

Since the last referendum, it stays between 40-55%. The seperatists party (The PQ), has won many elections in the past 30 years though. They've been in power for 2 terms, then usually another party gets elected, then they come back again for 2 more terms.


The PQ lost the last elections (Pretty much expected). But they will most likely won the next ones (In about 2 years).
 
Rick van Opbergen
#22
Interesting. I wasn't aware of the large numbers of Québecois who support the seperatist party (PQ - Parti Québecois I assume? Or Parti Québec?). But does that also mean that these people who voted for the PQ all support independence? I mean, it sounds weird, but I assume that the PQ also presents itself as a party which comes up for the rights of Québec, which could mean that not all people vote for the PQ as in wanting independence, as well wanting that Québec is treated better in the federation called Canada. So what is the number of people who have literally said "I want Québec to become independent"? And another question: does Québec as a province areally has an undermined position in Canada, financially, socially, politically speaking?
 
Reverend Blair
#23
A lot more Quebec residents vote for the Parti Quebecois than support separation, Rick. They are a valid political party that leans to left (much like the New Democrats policy-wise) and have done a lot for the province.

The last referdum it was decided, by a narrow margin, that Quebec would stay in Canada. There were some serious reservations expressed about the wording of the question and it is generally felt more Quebecois would have voted to stay in Canada if the wording was more clear. I don't believe that to be so...the issue was so highly publicised that anybody with a television or radio could have voted without reading the question.

Something that has not been properly addressed in Quebec or the rest of Canada is exactly what separation would mean. Would all of Quebec separate or would parts that wanted to remain in Canada have that right? What would become of federal crown lands? How would it impact native issues? Would Quebec be required to take a percentage of Canada's debt with it? How would that percentage be calculated? Would passports be required between Quebec and Canada? What about trade between Quebec and Canada? Would Quebec citizens be allowed to use Canadian passports? What about out money?

These are all contentious issues and nobody on either side seems interested in discussing them openly and frankly so that everybody...inside and outside of Quebec...can make an informed decision.

It is a huge failing of politicians on both sides of the issue and that failing is causing at least as many problems as the issue itself.
 
Numure
#24
Quote: Originally Posted by Rick van Opbergen

Interesting. I wasn't aware of the large numbers of Québecois who support the seperatist party (PQ - Parti Québecois I assume? Or Parti Québec?). But does that also mean that these people who voted for the PQ all support independence? I mean, it sounds weird, but I assume that the PQ also presents itself as a party which comes up for the rights of Québec, which could mean that not all people vote for the PQ as in wanting independence, as well wanting that Québec is treated better in the federation called Canada. So what is the number of people who have literally said "I want Québec to become independent"? And another question: does Québec as a province areally has an undermined position in Canada, financially, socially, politically speaking?

Last referendum, 49% said yes. That was 1995. Probably the only fact that could tell you how much people have said "I want an independant Québec".
 
Numure
#25
Quote: Originally Posted by Reverend Blair

A lot more Quebec residents vote for the Parti Quebecois than support separation, Rick. They are a valid political party that leans to left (much like the New Democrats policy-wise) and have done a lot for the province.

The last referdum it was decided, by a narrow margin, that Quebec would stay in Canada. There were some serious reservations expressed about the wording of the question and it is generally felt more Quebecois would have voted to stay in Canada if the wording was more clear. I don't believe that to be so...the issue was so highly publicised that anybody with a television or radio could have voted without reading the question.

Something that has not been properly addressed in Quebec or the rest of Canada is exactly what separation would mean. Would all of Quebec separate or would parts that wanted to remain in Canada have that right? What would become of federal crown lands? How would it impact native issues? Would Quebec be required to take a percentage of Canada's debt with it? How would that percentage be calculated? Would passports be required between Quebec and Canada? What about trade between Quebec and Canada? Would Quebec citizens be allowed to use Canadian passports? What about out money?

These are all contentious issues and nobody on either side seems interested in discussing them openly and frankly so that everybody...inside and outside of Quebec...can make an informed decision.

It is a huge failing of politicians on both sides of the issue and that failing is causing at least as many problems as the issue itself.

Because before addressing does, the party needs a mandate from the people. That is why the question, in each referendum, was asking if the people gave that mandate to the goverment. The mandate to negotiate the seperation of our province. All does questions, would be answered after. It has been quite clear that becoming independant, resolving every issue around it, would take at least 2 years. It wouldnt be the next day after a succesful referendum.
 
Numure
#26
And might I note, it took 3 referendums before newfoundland joined Canada. And even when they did, the yes side only won with 51% I believe? It wasnt part of Newfoundland that joined, but all of it.
 
Reverend Blair
#27
There are still plenty of people in Newfoundland that feel joining Canada was a bad idea, Numure. That's after 55 years.

I really do think that at least some issues should be clarified before the next referendum takes place. Native issues are a major problem...can you imagine Oka without the presence of the Canadian forces? It very likely would have turned into a blood bath.

Natural resources are a major issue too. That ties right back into native issues...a lot of proposed projects are on disputed land, the money and jobs created by those projects could allow for ongoing native self-determination, and their treaties are with the Canadian government. Quebec governments, PQ and Liberal, have been less than fair and honest with the natives, especially when money is at stake.

Sovereignty association is another major issue. There is a lot of feeling in English Canada that if you go, then you go. No sharing passports or money. Trade deals to be negotiated as they would be with any other sovereign nation. The PQ tend to take sovereignty association as a given, but that is simply not the case...especially in a government that would no longer have any representatives from Quebec.

If you want people to make an informed decision, then the stances of both sides need to clearly understood. Some things are on the table for later negotiation and others aren't. Still others, like Native issues, will be decided by people not as yet heard from in any significant way. Without the knowledge of which is which nobody can make a truly informed decision. Just saying that it can all be negotiated later is not good enough.
 
Andem
Free Thinker
#28
To clarify what the people of Quebec really want, you have to explore the mentality and some of the brainwash which the separatists throw down the throats of (especially) the people in rural areas who are not exactly exposed to the rest of Canada.

Secondly, to know what Quebecois really want, you also have to ask the question plain and simple. Not ask them if they would like some things sovereign and other things still attached to Canada. The last referendum would not have gotten more than 30% of the vote if you asked the question upfront. It was all a play on words.

A majority of "separatists" that I've met aren't exactly the most political type of people who certainly don't have any answers when it comes to economic reform and International agreements. Any high numbers presented as separatists are usually inflated or taken at high points when there's been a scandal in the federal government (like sponsorship).
 
Andem
Free Thinker
#29
Just wanted to add:

I do not support monitary or social unions with Québec should the province ever get enough "Oui" votes for separation.

I also believe that if there was a separation between the province and the country that there would be a mass exodus of people from (especially) Montréal. I don't think Montréal could sustain it's self with the amount of people who I know personally that would get up and move to (these are not my words) Toronto. I kind of see it as an Ostberlin/Westberlin type of situation. Who is going to stay on the side which has an economy going bankrupt? Who obviously didn't make the right choice for the people?

There are many outstanding questions on how Quebec would sustain it's self and how it would deal with it's share of the federal debt.
 
Rick van Opbergen
#30
How many people are currently living in Québec who are not "French" (or should I say Québecois? Having troubles with the definition)? Are they likely to leave Québec if it becomes an independent country? And what about the Canadian provinces of New Brunswick, Prince Edward Island and Nova Scotia? They will be cut off from the rest of Canada right (OK there is a line which runs by Newfoundland)? And what about the fact the entrance of the St. Lawrence will be in the hands of Québec?