Gun Control is Completely Useless.

In Between Man · Oct 1, 2008

First of all, thank you Colpy for the great OP!

I'm finding that trying to convince others that gun control is pointless is practically impossible. I guess people don't like to lose face while debating something. But still how are we going to change attitudes across the whole country, so that these laws are reversed? How you seen the freaking world out there lately? I long for the day when I can choose to carry a handgun on person, at free will. I'm a law-abiding citizen, why can't I?

Another possible scenario:

You live in bush. You don't go anywhere without your rifle slung over your shoulder. You need to travel, thru bush, to the nearest town. Maybe you need asswipe or first aid, or something, whatever. I bet even in these small towns it wouldn't take long for the police to be called. Questioned. Rifle taken away. Maybe fined. Then you travel back thru the bush to go home, and a bear eats you. 8O8O8O:-(
Sigh.

talloola · Oct 1, 2008

alleywayzalwayz said:
First of all, thank you Colpy for the great OP!

I'm finding that trying to convince others that gun control is pointless is practically impossible. I guess people don't like to lose face while debating something.

You mean, 'be reasonable and see it my way'.?
I am 100% against , owning and carrying hand guns becoming more available and easier. I
like the fact that canada has stringent and strict laws against owning and carrying hand
guns. I believe that to be a sensible and logical position to take. I am not going to try
to convince you that gun control is wise and logical, 'it would be pointless and
practically impossible.

But still how are we going to change attitudes across the whole country, so that these laws are reversed?
I hope the laws never change.

In Between Man · Oct 2, 2008

talloola said:
alleywayzalwayz said:

You mean, 'be reasonable and see it my way'.?
I am 100% against , owning and carrying hand guns becoming more available and easier. I
like the fact that canada has stringent and strict laws against owning and carrying hand
guns. I believe that to be a sensible and logical position to take. I am not going to try
to convince you that gun control is wise and logical, 'it would be pointless and
practically impossible.

But still how are we going to change attitudes across the whole country, so that these laws are reversed?
I hope the laws never change.

Click to expand...

Gun control does not work. Criminals don't care about breaking laws. They fear citizens with guns. Why do you think the cops gotta have the best guns on the market? Cuz the bad guys do!!! There's two types of people in the world. Good guys and bad guys. Period. If your a good guy, why not have the choice to carry a weapon? You know how many times a good guy with a gun has saved the day? It's happens all the time. Bad guy snaps, tries to kill a bunch of people. Good guy kills the bad guy. That's exactly what the cops do if they have to. And that's why the poor, defenseless person calls the cops. Cuz they're part of the good guy side, and so are the boys in blue, and the boys carry guns. Do you see how that works?

I'm a good guy. I sure be allowed to carry a handgun if I want. I've been trained. I'm an avid shooter.

I'm tired of being shaken down for my ipod, or shoes, or cash. I want justice.

Guns are cool. Guns are useful.

Only the good guys should have them. Gun control laws take don't effect criminals. And never will.

Vanni Fucci · Oct 2, 2008

alleywayzalwayz said:
Gun control does not work.

Prove it

alleywayzalwayz said:
They fear citizens with guns.

Do they?

So why are the gangs not laying down their arms and adopting a policy of negotiation and diplomacy out of mutual respect for their rivals?

alleywayzalwayz said:
There's two types of people in the world. Good guys and bad guys. Period.

Oh really? What about dirty cops and the clinically insane? Are they good guys or bad guys?

alleywayzalwayz said:
If your a good guy, why not have the choice to carry a weapon?

Possibly because the concept of good and bad is subjective, and indicative of an immature world-view...

Unless, of course, we have the bad guys wear armbands to identify them as such...

alleywayzalwayz said:
You know how many times a good guy with a gun has saved the day?

Do you know how many times a "good guy" has shot an innocent dead?

alleywayzalwayz said:
It's happens all the time. Bad guy snaps, tries to kill a bunch of people. Good guy kills the bad guy. That's exactly what the cops do if they have to. And that's why the poor, defenseless person calls the cops. Cuz they're part of the good guy side, and so are the boys in blue, and the boys carry guns. Do you see how that works?

Sounds to me like you're arguing against your previous points now...

alleywayzalwayz said:
I'm a good guy.

According to who? Your mom?

alleywayzalwayz said:
I sure be allowed to carry a handgun if I want. I've been trained. I'm an avid shooter.

From what I've seen so far, you're the last person we need on the street packing heat...

alleywayzalwayz said:
I'm tired of being shaken down for my ipod, or shoes, or cash. I want justice.

So you're going to shoot someone because they try to boost your ipod?

alleywayzalwayz said:
Guns are cool.

Uh-huh...

alleywayzalwayz said:
Guns are useful.

If you're being attacked by grizzly bears...

alleywayzalwayz said:
Only the good guys should have them. Gun control laws take don't effect criminals. And never will.

At least the cops know that if they see someone with a gun on the street, that person is a threat to society and are able to take appropriate action...

talloola · Oct 2, 2008

alleywayzalwayz said:
talloola said:

Gun control does not work. Criminals don't care about breaking laws. They fear citizens with guns. Why do you think the cops gotta have the best guns on the market? Cuz the bad guys do!!! There's two types of people in the world. Good guys and bad guys. Period. If your a good guy, why not have the choice to carry a weapon? You know how many times a good guy with a gun has saved the day? It's happens all the time. Bad guy snaps, tries to kill a bunch of people. Good guy kills the bad guy. That's exactly what the cops do if they have to. And that's why the poor, defenseless person calls the cops. Cuz they're part of the good guy side, and so are the boys in blue, and the boys carry guns. Do you see how that works?

I'm a good guy. I sure be allowed to carry a handgun if I want. I've been trained. I'm an avid shooter.

I'm tired of being shaken down for my ipod, or shoes, or cash. I want justice.

Guns are cool. Guns are useful.

Only the good guys should have them. Gun control laws take don't effect criminals. And never will.

Click to expand...

You've been watching too much TV------

Colpy · Oct 2, 2008

alleywayzalwayz said:
[
Gun control does not work. Criminals don't care about breaking laws. They fear citizens with guns. .

Vanni Fucci said:
Prove it

...

Did you read the first post in this thread and my post from yesterday, just above?

I already did prove it.

Need a little more proof? Observe UN Stats on Murder rates: 1998-2000.

Notice Jamaica (No.3) where every legal firearm on the island was seized and dumped in the sea in the late 70s. You get life in prison for possession of a bullet only in Jamaica, and it is an island, with easily controled borders.

Notice also Mexico (no. 6), with extremely strict gun control....

Notice Switzerland, at No.56.....the Swiss are encouraged to own personal arms, and every Swiss male between 18 and 45 MUST keep a fully automatic assault rifle (that's a machine gun) and 200 rounds of ammunition in his home for national defense. Hmmmm. They do not rate at the top of firearms ownership because those weapons are owned by the state.

This being a UN site, Israel does not appear, but Israel's murder rate is miniscule, about like the Swiss, and Israelis are encouraged to carry arms.......

Notice Great Britain and Australia, both of whom banned handguns, and the vast majority of long guns...........right there with Canada..........BTW both of those nations had an increase in murders after the gun bans.

Notice the USA.....not first, but 24th, close to the middle.........

Notice Finland, right in the middle, enjoys one of the highest rates of firearms ownership in the world........second only to the USA.

#1 Colombia:0.617847 per 1,000 people
#2 South Africa:0.496008 per 1,000 people
#3 Jamaica:0.324196 per 1,000 people
#4 Venezuela:0.316138 per 1,000 people
#5 Russia:0.201534 per 1,000 people
#6 Mexico:0.130213 per 1,000 people
#7 Estonia:0.107277 per 1,000 people
#8 Latvia:0.10393 per 1,000 people
#9 Lithuania:0.102863 per 1,000 people
#10 Belarus:0.0983495 per 1,000 people
#11 Ukraine:0.094006 per 1,000 people
#12 Papua New Guinea:0.0838593 per 1,000 people
#13 Kyrgyzstan:0.0802565 per 1,000 people
#14 Thailand:0.0800798 per 1,000 people
#15 Moldova:0.0781145 per 1,000 people
#16 Zimbabwe:0.0749938 per 1,000 people
#17 Seychelles:0.0739025 per 1,000 people
#18 Zambia:0.070769 per 1,000 people
#19 Costa Rica:0.061006 per 1,000 people
#20 Poland:0.0562789 per 1,000 people
#21 Georgia:0.0511011 per 1,000 people
#22 Uruguay:0.045082 per 1,000 people
#23 Bulgaria:0.0445638 per 1,000 people
#24 United States:0.042802 per 1,000 people
#25 Armenia:0.0425746 per 1,000 people
#26 India:0.0344083 per 1,000 people
#27 Yemen:0.0336276 per 1,000 people
#28 Dominica:0.0289733 per 1,000 people
#29 Azerbaijan:0.0285642 per 1,000 people
#30 Finland:0.0283362 per 1,000 people
#31 Slovakia:0.0263303 per 1,000 people
#32 Romania:0.0250784 per 1,000 people
#33 Portugal:0.0233769 per 1,000 people
#34 Malaysia:0.0230034 per 1,000 people
#35 Macedonia, The Former Yugoslav Republic of:0.0229829 per 1,000 people
#36 Mauritius:0.021121 per 1,000 people
#37 Hungary:0.0204857 per 1,000 people
#38 Korea, South:0.0196336 per 1,000 people
#39 Slovenia:0.0179015 per 1,000 people
#40 France:0.0173272 per 1,000 people
#41 Czech Republic:0.0169905 per 1,000 people
#42 Iceland:0.0168499 per 1,000 people
#43 Australia:0.0150324 per 1,000 people
#44 Canada:0.0149063 per 1,000 people
#45 Chile:0.014705 per 1,000 people
#46 United Kingdom:0.0140633 per 1,000 people
#47 Italy:0.0128393 per 1,000 people
#48 Spain:0.0122456 per 1,000 people
#49 Germany:0.0116461 per 1,000 people
#50 Tunisia:0.0112159 per 1,000 people
#51 Netherlands:0.0111538 per 1,000 people
#52 New Zealand:0.0111524 per 1,000 people
#53 Denmark:0.0106775 per 1,000 people
#54 Norway:0.0106684 per 1,000 people
#55 Ireland:0.00946215 per 1,000 people
#56 Switzerland:0.00921351 per 1,000 people
#57 Indonesia:0.00910842 per 1,000 people
#58 Greece:0.0075928 per 1,000 people
#59 Hong Kong:0.00550804 per 1,000 people
#60 Japan:0.00499933 per 1,000 people
#61 Saudi Arabia:0.00397456 per 1,000 people
#62 Qatar:0.00115868 per 1,000 people
Weighted average:0.1 per 1,000 people

DEFINITION: Total recorded intentional homicides, completed. Crime statistics are often better indicators of prevalence of law enforcement and willingness to report crime, than actual prevalence. Per capita figures expressed per 1,000 population.

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_percap-crime-murders-per-capita

Need more convincing?

What this shows is no relationship between the prevalence of firearms and murder rates.....therefore, a free society should allow relatively unfettered access to arms.......seen by many as a cornerstone of political freedom.

Zzarchov · Oct 2, 2008

Colpy, Gun control is an emotional issue.

Facts don't figure into it.

FACT: Gun ownership puts power in the hands of the publics at large and out of the sole domain of the elites (either criminals or cops)

In a factual manner, that means unless society a majority of crazed psychos (in which case guns are the least of your worries), Guns give power to good people.

The numbers back this up.

But that doesn't matter, its an emotional issue.

Likewise: Abortion is shown to raise the standard of living and lower poverty.

Facts support this, but that doesn't matter,

Its an emotional issue.

In the case of Gun control its simple: Who is more pure and trustworthy?

The entity of the state (Fascist leanings)

You (Anarchist leanings)

Canada leans into the concept of the state above the individual, so we lean towards gun control. States that are anti-gun control lean to the unchecked liberty of the individual.

ottawabill · Oct 2, 2008

As long as someone makes guns..there will be guns! As long as there are legit reasons to own a firearm there is no reason to rid ourselves of them.Protection purposes, hunting, rural requirements. I have no concern with keeping high power weapons away from the general public, i pesonally see no need for them. But for those how live in danger, those who protect us, hunt, need to keep preditors away from livestock or thoses wo target practice; will do they need to pay dearly for the no mind inner city yahoo who has no respect for anything?

As I drive my country roads I see 18 year olds walking along with rifles (it's duck hunting season) I fear none of them, why? because they are God citizens out getting close to nature and have a good sense of how us humans fit in with the whole scheme of life.

ut because some idiot fires shots infront of a school in Toronto or Montreal this kid should lose his gun, Or have payment after payment in licence fees..It doesn't make any sense at all

Vanni Fucci · Oct 2, 2008

Colpy said:
Need more convincing?

Kinda...

I have some statistics of my own...

http://library.med.utah.edu/WebPath/TUTORIAL/GUNS/GUNSTAT.html
Firearms Deaths by Mode of Death for Children <15 Years of Age

Top 10 Countries - Rate per 100,000

Notice number 1 and 2 for total firearms ownership per capita?

Your stats only cover gun-related death...what about firearm related injuries?

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/ss5002a1.htm

Figure 5

Figure 7

While the percentages did decline significantly during the 6 year period that was sampled, as you can see the numbers are still extremely high among young people.

Those are stats for US though...

Here's some for Alberta and Canada:

http://www.acicr.ualberta.ca/pages/facts/Firearm Facts.pdf

• Firearm-related deaths account for nearly 10% of all injury deaths in Alberta over the past five
years.1
• In 1997, 401 suicides were completed in Alberta. Nearly 20% of these involved the use of a
firearm.2
• Of Albertan homes, 39% contain guns. Nationally, Alberta ranks first among the provinces in
the percentage of homes with guns.3
• Alberta has one of the highest death rates in the country (6.2 per 100,000 population). The
national rate is 4.6 per 100,000 population.4
• A home with a gun is 5 times more likely to be the scene of a suicide and 3 times more likely
to be the scene of a murder than a home without a gun.5
• During 1997 in Alberta, more young people died as a result of an encounter with a firearm
than due to leukemia.2
• During 1997 in Alberta, 95% of all deaths involving firearms were intentional.1
• During 1996 in Alberta, more than three people are hospitalized each month with
unintentional firearm-related injuries.8
• Among 26 industrialized countries, Canada ranked 5th in firearm-related deaths among
children younger than 15 years.6
• The rate of children killed with guns in Alberta is almost twice the national average. In fact it is
comparable to the combined rates of Israel and Northern Ireland.

Colpy said:
What this shows is no relationship between the prevalence of firearms and murder rates.....therefore, a free society should allow relatively unfettered access to arms.......seen by many as a cornerstone of political freedom.

How exactly is possessing the means to shoot someone a cornerstone of political freedom?

#juan · Oct 2, 2008

Good post Vanni.

Quoting Colpy What this shows is no relationship between the prevalence of firearms and murder rates.....therefore, a free society should allow relatively unfettered access to arms.......seen by many as a cornerstone of political freedom.

I prefer a little more fettering , certainly of handgun ownership. How many young people have been shot in Toronto in the last couple years because brainless people got hold of handguns. Getting shot is not an indication of political freedom.

Colpy · Oct 2, 2008

Vanni Fucci said:
Kinda...

I have some statistics of my own...

http://library.med.utah.edu/WebPath/TUTORIAL/GUNS/GUNSTAT.html
Firearms Deaths by Mode of Death for Children <15 Years of Age

Top 10 Countries - Rate per 100,000

Notice number 1 and 2 for total firearms ownership per capita?

Your stats only cover gun-related death...what about firearm related injuries?

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/ss5002a1.htm

Figure 5

Figure 7

While the percentages did decline significantly during the 6 year period that was sampled, as you can see the numbers are still extremely high among young people.

Those are stats for US though...

Here's some for Alberta and Canada:

http://www.acicr.ualberta.ca/pages/facts/Firearm%20Facts.pdf

How exactly is possessing the means to shoot someone a cornerstone of political freedom?

interesting, but....

First of all, there is a problem with your Alberta stats....

If the federal government's numbers are right, Newfoundlanders and Labradorians are Canada's most heavily armed citizens, but also its least trigger-happy.

According to the most recent numbers from the Canada Firearms Centre, the province has 70,977 registered firearms. Statistics Canada's latest numbers estimate the province's population at 508,270. That's one gun for every 7.2 people, the highest ratio of guns to people of any province in the country.

Statistics Canada's most recent numbers on gun crime also reveal the province has the lowest annual rate of victims of firearm-related crime in the country, with just 11.4 victims for every 100,000 people.

http://www.thetelegram.com/index.cfm?sid=165106&sc=79

I find some of the rst of your stats a bit misleading.....for instance, the ones on child death by firearm....

As an aside....a pet peeve of mine.....every time someone wants to restrict my freedom, it's "oh the Children!" Well, guess what, there is no freedom without risk......

Now, from what I could find on demographics, the proportion of the population under 19 years of age in 2006 was 24%. A little extrapolation shows that that would be 19% under the age of 15, the age used in your graph................which shows a death rate by firearms in this group of about .4 per 100,000.

Do the math.

That means in an average Canadian city of 100,000.....you are talking about, on average, one death every 13.1 years. Give me a break. And at least a quarter of those are suicides.........another quarter homicides. Probably neither preventable, as the perpetrators simply turn to other weapons.....AND there is no stats on legal vs illegal weapons. No matter what you do, you can not by definition, prevent the use of illegal weapons by law.......

As for the possession of arms being a cornerstone of political liberty......do you really want my extensive lecture on the parallel development of private ownership of guns.....and democracy?

Suffice to say the first battle to suppress the first successful democratic movement in modern history took place when American farmers took up their rifles and fought British troops sent into the countryside to seize arms.

That is why the Yanks are garaunteed the right in their constitution. It ain't about duck hunting.

And that Constitution sprang from the example of our own.....the British constitution, which recognizes the right to keep and bear arms as an ancient right of the people in the Magna Carta of 1215, and in the English Bill of Rights of 1689.

there is an inherent right of free people to keep arms, no matter what the gov't tells you.

anonymus · Oct 2, 2008

Colpy said:
Suffice to say the first battle to suppress the first successful democratic movement in modern history took place when American farmers took up their rifles and fought British troops sent into the countryside to seize arms.

That is why the Yanks are garaunteed the right in their constitution. It ain't about duck hunting.

And that Constitution sprang from the example of our own.....the British constitution, which recognizes the right to keep and bear arms as an ancient right of the people in the Magna Carta of 1215, and in the English Bill of Rights of 1689.

there is an inherent right of free people to keep arms, no matter what the gov't tells you.

You said it all better than I could!

Thanx

Zzarchov · Oct 2, 2008

Juan, Im all for banning handguns, all guns,

If you can find me one non-emotional reason to do so that does not apply in a greater manner to other freedoms we would never dream of ending.

(Ie, no "One kid died from a legal gun" because far more than one kid dies from other legal luxury and security devices including automatic garage doors, power tools, etc unless you can show things like garage doors and power tools are essential for every citizen to have while guns do not)

The numbers are clear though. Guns do not cause murder, nor does lack of guns prevent murder (should be clear due to murder preceeding guns anyways). Other social and evironment conditions cause murder, of which guns can be used.

1Larry · Oct 2, 2008

Death and Numbers

Got to love the uninformed. The total no of childer deads attributed to guns include undetermined causes, knifes, car accidents, just to name a few. Now if I were looking for somewhere to spend my time think about this. How many gun shoot victims die because the cloest emergency room does not accept certain victems or policy directs the injured to a specific destination father away. World wide Doctors kill more pacients in one year that guns in 20 years. Misdignosed, missed alergy complacations, drug interactions, dosage and the list goes on. My favorite is still operating on the wrong pacient, 40% of the time resulting in death. Have a nice day.

Avro · Oct 2, 2008

1Larry said:
Got to love the uninformed. The total no of childer deads attributed to guns include undetermined causes, knifes, car accidents, just to name a few. Now if I were looking for somewhere to spend my time think about this. How many gun shoot victims die because the cloest emergency room does not accept certain victems or policy directs the injured to a specific destination father away. World wide Doctors kill more pacients in one year that guns in 20 years. Misdignosed, missed alergy complacations, drug interactions, dosage and the list goes on. My favorite is still operating on the wrong pacient, 40% of the time resulting in death. Have a nice day.

Could please either slow down or learn to spell, this is very difficult to read.

Also could you please link the stats you used.

#juan · Oct 2, 2008

Zzarchov said:
Juan, Im all for banning handguns, all guns,

If you can find me one non-emotional reason to do so that does not apply in a greater manner to other freedoms we would never dream of ending.

(Ie, no "One kid died from a legal gun" because far more than one kid dies from other legal luxury and security devices including automatic garage doors, power tools, etc unless you can show things like garage doors and power tools are essential for every citizen to have while guns do not)

The numbers are clear though. Guns do not cause murder, nor does lack of guns prevent murder (should be clear due to murder preceeding guns anyways). Other social and evironment conditions cause murder, of which guns can be used.

Zzarchov

I grew up in a house full of rifles and shotguns, and so did most of my friends. There was never a problem. We didn't have handguns. IMO, handguns are only useful to police and guards who use them in their work. I can't think of a handgun I would want to take hunting.

1Larry · Oct 2, 2008

Avro

If you want to give spelling lessons I think you might try a more apporiate time and place. As for statistics just check the medical jurnal anual report to the Surgen General. I am not here to write a thesus and I have other things to do. If you have a problem with that you can ask me to go and I have no problem with that. However unless you have a real comment that has some meaning on the subject in reply, keep it to yourself. You have waisted enought of my time already. Also by the way go to NRA, I am a member, then go to the Insurance Anual Statistics Reports and between the three of them chose what ever numbers you want. If you do not like those go to the ACLU and try their numbers. I delibertly left out the Senates' Report on Violence in the Streets and only God knows where those numbers come from.

1Larry · Oct 2, 2008

Who's on first.

The sad fact is that people die every day from our stupidy. The childern die from being left in a car unattended or even worse, forgotten, children deliberty placed in a car alive and shoved into a lake, doctors are to busy to look at a chart to see what medications are being given and which are the child allergic to, children die in large numbers because a safety seat is install wrong, installed in the front seat or not used at all. Anyone could go on for hours. The gun issue is not about child safety, it is about government supremacy. My issue is simple, I will not give up my rights to protect myself and that includes protection from the government. The government is not will to pick that fight because it dose not like the odds. And if you do not believe this just take a look at the things that government officiles do with no fear of the public. To really understand to understand the smoke and mirrors, one only needs to understand that over 90% of the deaths caused by hand guns are done with illegal weapons. Hand gun control is not the solution because the hand guns are not really the problem. It does not matter the weapon, the problem is social and goes back as far as man can remember. It is just like drugs, what were the youths abusing before speed, cocane, ect.? Panit fumes, alcohal, berries, ect. The only solution to conflict is social change. We need to change us and that will fix all the worlds problems and fix them perminately.

talloola · Oct 2, 2008

Avro said:
Could please either slow down or learn to spell, this is very difficult to read.

A good reader can understand his post just fine, maybe english is his second language, so
cut him some slack.

1Larry · Oct 2, 2008

Traps.

The governments spend an amazing amount of money to generate these types of issues and to keep them going as long and strong as possible. There is no rational way to blame a tool for death unless it is defective. This is a fact and facts simply are. And I would say that well made tools that rarely cause death due to a defect. No matter how you look at life, untimely death is not caused, for the most part with the exception of defect, by tools. It is caused by the people who use those tools. And if you look back threw time, even with the lack of guns existed. The numbers by percentiages do not vary that much however the total size of the the numbers varies exponetuly as does the population which makes more visable but percapata, very little change. I am not trying to minimize the pain or horror of children dying by hand guns. But the problem is not the tool, it is us.

Gun Control is Completely Useless.

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