Pre-Hysteria Climate Science From 1979 When Science Wasn't Religion

petros

petros

The Central Scrutinizer
Nov 21, 2008
109,303
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Low Earth Orbit
Heading into Solar Minimum what can we expect?
Evidence of a 22-year Rhythm of Drought in the Western United States Related to the Hale Solar Cycle since the 17th Century
Abstract
Families of Drought Area Indices (DAI) have been derived from tree-ring data for the entire U.S. west of the Mississippi River, for each year back to either 1700 or 1600 A.D., depending on the data base used. Each DAI is expressed in terms of the relative area in which the Palmer Drought Severity Index (PDSI) lies below a specified threshold value between −1 (mild drought) and −4 (extreme drought). Three families of DAI are considered in the analysis reported in this paper. Each DAI family is based on reconstructions from a selection of between 40 and 65 tree-ring sites ranging from Canada to Mexico and from the west coast to the Plains states. Variance spectrum analysis of the DAI series shows a concentration of variance at periods near 22 yr, at significance levels ranging from 5 to 0.1% (relative to a pink noise continuum). Band-pass filters tuned to periods near 22 yr are used in a form of harmonic dial analysis proposed by G. W. Brier to verify the extent of phase locking between the drought area variations and the Hale sunspot cycle since 1700 A.D. Phase locking is confirmed at significance levels of order 1 to 0.1% for all DAI families and all drought severity limits except extreme drought (PDSI < −4). A tendency is found for the amplitude of the 22 yr drought rhythm to vary systematically in parallel with the amplitude (envelope) of the Hale sunspot cycle, on the Gleissberg time scale of about 90 yr. This relationship is statistically significant between the 5 and 1% levels, and is independent of the phase locking found within the Hale cycle. The DAI series that extend back to 1600 A.D. reflect a well-defined 22 yr drought rhythm during the early stages of the Maunder Minimum of solar activity, but a very weak rhythm near the end of the Maunder Minimum. The average areal extent of drought was relatively low, and remained low for a prolonged period, during the Maunder Minimum. This analysis strongly supports earlier evidence of a 22 yr drought rhythm, or “cycle,” in the U.S. and suggests that the drought rhythm is in some manner controlled by long-term solar variability directly or indirectly related to solar magnetic effects. The solar control is best described as a modulation of terrestrial drought-inducing mechanisms, such that it alternately encourages and discourages the development of major continental droughts which are set up by evolutionary climatic processes unrelated to solar activity.
https://pageone.springer.com/pdf/preview/10.1007/978-94-009-9428-7_13
 
petros

petros

The Central Scrutinizer
Nov 21, 2008
109,303
11,389
113
Low Earth Orbit
From 1978 linking climate change to magnetic changes and solar cycles.

SYMPOSIUH/WORKSHOP CONCLUSIONS
Billy M. McCormac
Department 52-l0/B202
Lockheed Palo Alto Research Laboratory
3251 Hanover Street
Palo Alto, CA 94304 USA
Thomas A. Seliga
Atmospheric Sciences Program
The Ohio State University
2015 Neil Avenue
Columbus, OH 43210 USA
A. INTRODUCTION
The Symposium/Workshop on Solar-Terrestrial Influences on Weather and
Climate was held at The Ohio State University on 24-28 July 1978. Its
purpose was to provide an international forum for the presentation and
discussion of recent research results and ideas regarding the question
whether variations in solar outputs affect terrestrial weather and cli-
mate and, if so, to what extent and through what mechanisms. The Sym-
posium focused on the results of previous studies and consisted of both
invited and contributed papers. The Workshop, on the other hand, built
upon these deliberations to develop ideas and directions for future
research.
Over one hundred persons from eight countries attended the Symposium/
Workshop. They represented research institutes, universities, private
industry and federal agencies, and had professional interests ranging
from practicing meteorologists to solar physicists. Considerable time
was devoted to discussion; this produced important interdisciplinary
interactions and greatly enhanced the scientific benefits for all
participants.
1. MAJOR SCIENTIFIC ISSUES
Whether solar variability influences weather and climate is a fundamental
scientific question, answers to which may have important practical i"mplica-
tions for long-term weather and climate prediction. Unfortunately, we
are not yet in a position to answer this question although evidence for
significant relationships between solar variability and tropospheric
1
B.M. McCormac and T.A. Seliga (Ed8.): Solar-Terre8trialln/luence8 on Weather and Climate. 1-27.
All Right8 Re8erved. Copyright © 1979 by D. Reidel Publi8hing Company, Dordrecht, Hollllnd.
SYMPOSIUH/WORKSHOP CONCLUSIONS
Billy M. McCormac
Department 52-l0/B202
Lockheed Palo Alto Research Laboratory
3251 Hanover Street
Palo Alto, CA 94304 USA
Thomas A. Seliga
Atmospheric Sciences Program
The Ohio State University
2015 Neil Avenue
Columbus, OH 43210 USA
A. INTRODUCTION
The Symposium/Workshop on Solar-Terrestrial Influences on Weather and
Climate was held at The Ohio State University on 24-28 July 1978. Its
purpose was to provide an international forum for the presentation and
discussion of recent research results and ideas regarding the question
whether variations in solar outputs affect terrestrial weather and cli-
mate and, if so, to what extent and through what mechanisms. The Sym-
posium focused on the results of previous studies and consisted of both
invited and contributed papers. The Workshop, on the other hand, built
upon these deliberations to develop ideas and directions for future
research.
Over one hundred persons from eight countries attended the Symposium/
Workshop. They represented research institutes, universities, private
industry and federal agencies, and had professional interests ranging
from practicing meteorologists to solar physicists. Considerable time
was devoted to discussion; this produced important interdisciplinary
interactions and greatly enhanced the scientific benefits for all
participants.
1. MAJOR SCIENTIFIC ISSUES
Whether solar variability influences weather and climate is a fundamental
scientific question, answers to which may have important practical i"mplica-
tions for long-term weather and climate prediction. Unfortunately, we
are not yet in a position to answer this question although evidence for
significant relationships between solar variability and tropospheric
1
B.M. McCormac and T.A. Seliga (Ed8.): Solar-Terre8trialln/luence8 on Weather and Climate. 1-27.
All Right8 Re8erved. Copyright © 1979 by D. Reidel Publi8hing Company, Dordrecht, Hollllnd.

2 B.M. MCCORMAC AND T.A. SELIGA
phenomena has increased significantly over the last decade. Clearly, the
energetics of solar variability are too small to directly affect tropo-
spheric or stratospheric processes significantly. Therefore, it appears
that, if the correlations between solar variability and lower atmospheric
effects are indicative of actual physical linkages, the causative mech-
anism(s) would most likely be subtle, for example, trigger effects asso-
ciated with changes in 0 3 concentrations in the stratosphere and modifi-
cations of the atmosphere's electrical characteristics.
Sun-weather relationships may extend from days to thousands of years.
The Milankovitch theory of climatic variability due to changes in solar
insolation resulting from variations in the Earth's orbit over extended
time periods is one generally accepted example of how long period clima-
tic changes occur. Other much shorter, but socially significant, cycles
effects seem to involve drought, thunderstorm activity, atmospheric
vorticity, stratospheric-tropospheric exchange processes, global pres-
sure pattern variations and atmospheric kinetic energy. In particular,
22-yr periodicity in areal drought over the western United States is
very well correlated with the Hale sunspot cycle which governs the
orientation of the interplanetary magnetic field. It is very interest-
ing that the other most striking evidence for solar influences, albeit
at time scales of days, involves the correlation between solar magnetic
sector crossings at the Earth's orbit with atmospheric vorticity changes
as measured by a vorticity area index (VAl). Perhaps these discoveries
are telling us something about the role of the interplanetary magnetic
field?
Other potential solar influences include the ll-yr sunspot cycle, the
27-day solar rotation and special solar events such as flares and
coronal holes. There is a growing body of evidence that these events
may influence weather either cyclically or, in the case of special
events, on time scales of the order of days.
Practical use of solar variability as a tool for weather and climatic
forecasting, other than through empirical approaches, remains to be
developed. Nevertheless, some evidence suggests that the weather fore-
casts may depend upon solar events. Should this relationship prove to
be correct, then indeed the study of solar-weather and climate relation-
ships would have proven its worth.
2. WORKSHOP ACTIVITIES
The above issues dominated the activities of the Symposium and led to
the Workshop deliberations which concluded the meeting. These sessions
were organized to provide future directions for research into solar-
weather and climate relationships. To do this, the attendees were in-
vited to select one of six different groups to participate in the
Thursday afternoon session. They were concerned with the following
topics: 1. correlation studies; 2. solar influences on global cir-
culation and climate models; 3. lower and upper atmospheric coupling,
including electricity; 4. planetary motions and other indirect factors;
2 B.M. MCCORMAC AND T.A. SELIGA
phenomena has increased significantly over the last decade. Clearly, the
energetics of solar variability are too small to directly affect tropo-
spheric or stratospheric processes significantly. Therefore, it appears
that, if the correlations between solar variability and lower atmospheric
effects are indicative of actual physical linkages, the causative mech-
anism(s) would most likely be subtle, for example, trigger effects asso-
ciated with changes in 0 3 concentrations in the stratosphere and modifi-
cations of the atmosphere's electrical characteristics.
Sun-weather relationships may extend from days to thousands of years.
The Milankovitch theory of climatic variability due to changes in solar
insolation resulting from variations in the Earth's orbit over extended
time periods is one generally accepted example of how long period clima-
tic changes occur. Other much shorter, but socially significant, cycles
effects seem to involve drought, thunderstorm activity, atmospheric
vorticity, stratospheric-tropospheric exchange processes, global pres-
sure pattern variations and atmospheric kinetic energy. In particular,
22-yr periodicity in areal drought over the western United States is
very well correlated with the Hale sunspot cycle which governs the
orientation of the interplanetary magnetic field. It is very interest-
ing that the other most striking evidence for solar influences, albeit
at time scales of days, involves the correlation between solar magnetic
sector crossings at the Earth's orbit with atmospheric vorticity changes
as measured by a vorticity area index (VAl). Perhaps these discoveries
are telling us something about the role of the interplanetary magnetic
field?
Other potential solar influences include the ll-yr sunspot cycle, the
27-day solar rotation and special solar events such as flares and
coronal holes. There is a growing body of evidence that these events
may influence weather either cyclically or, in the case of special
events, on time scales of the order of days.
Practical use of solar variability as a tool for weather and climatic
forecasting, other than through empirical approaches, remains to be
developed. Nevertheless, some evidence suggests that the weather fore-
casts may depend upon solar events. Should this relationship prove to
be correct, then indeed the study of solar-weather and climate relation-
ships would have proven its worth.
2. WORKSHOP ACTIVITIES
The above issues dominated the activities of the Symposium and led to
the Workshop deliberations which concluded the meeting. These sessions
were organized to provide future directions for research into solar-
weather and climate relationships. To do this, the attendees were in-
vited to select one of six different groups to participate in the
Thursday afternoon session. They were concerned with the following
topics: 1. correlation studies; 2. solar influences on global cir-
culation and climate models; 3. lower and upper atmospheric coupling,
including electricity; 4. planetary motions and other indirect factors;
 
Bar Sinister

Bar Sinister

Executive Branch Member
Jan 17, 2010
8,252
19
38
Edmonton
You do realize that none of that has anything to do with modern theories on climate change. Looks like you are getting desperate. What's next, posting images of mammoth skulls to prove that it was once colder thousands of years ago?
 
petros

petros

The Central Scrutinizer
Nov 21, 2008
109,303
11,389
113
Low Earth Orbit
Because modern theories are bullshit.

This is real science. Empirical science.

No guessing, modelling or prognostications.
 
Last edited:
Bar Sinister

Bar Sinister

Executive Branch Member
Jan 17, 2010
8,252
19
38
Edmonton
petros said:
Because modern theories are bullshit.

This is real science. Empirical science.

No guessing, modelling or prognostications.
Click to expand...


Actually your "science" is pure BS. But that is hardly surprising for an oil industry spokesperson who is desperately trying to defend Big Oil.
 
petros

petros

The Central Scrutinizer
Nov 21, 2008
109,303
11,389
113
Low Earth Orbit
What the f-ck is preclimate change science?

What I posted is climate science that has never been abandoned because it's emperical. It can't be abandoned because it's the foundation of the hypothetical climate science.

I don't think you understand what that means.

That's what makes me shake my head about your type.
 
C

Cliffy

Standing Member
Nov 19, 2008
44,850
192
63
Nakusp, BC
 
Bar Sinister

Bar Sinister

Executive Branch Member
Jan 17, 2010
8,252
19
38
Edmonton
petros said:
What the f-ck is preclimate change science?

What I posted is climate science that has never been abandoned because it's emperical. It can't be abandoned because it's the foundation of the hypothetical climate science.

I don't think you understand what that means.

That's what makes me shake my head about your type.
Click to expand...


I never shake my head over your posts because I know their origin. I think by now everyone in CC knows that you are nothing but an oil company shill.
 
petros

petros

The Central Scrutinizer
Nov 21, 2008
109,303
11,389
113
Low Earth Orbit
Uh oh, Emperical Science is at it again and it's the same Science as 1978 but 40 years later as in today type later.

*The fast approaching solar minimum and its potential impact on the upcoming winter season*

Overview

In the long term, the sun is the main driver of all weather and climate and multi-decadal trends in solar activity can have major impacts on oceanic and atmospheric temperatures. In addition, empirical observations have shown that the sun can have important ramifications on weather and climate on shorter time scales including those associated with the average solar cycle of around 11-years. For example, there is evidence that low solar activity during solar minimum years tend to be well-correlated with more frequent “high-latitude blocking” events compared to normal and this type of atmospheric phenomenon can play an important role in the winter season.

Discussion

Weather conditions and snowpack during the fall and winter seasons in cold air source regions such as Greenland and northeastern Canada can, in turn, have quite an impact on the conditions experienced in the eastern US. These particular regions of North America are where many cold air masses originate and the fact that Greenland, for example, has been particularly cold since late July is quite a bullish sign for the formation of deep, cold air masses. [By the way, the temperature at Summit Station, Greenland at 4 PM on Sunday was minus 38 degrees (F)].

It is not only important to monitor the potential for the formation of cold air masses in these particular regions, it is also important to determine if there will be a mechanism to bring the cold air masses southward from the northern latitudes into the mid-latitudes including the Mid-Atlantic region. “High-latitude blocking” is a phrase given to just such an atmospheric phenomenon that indeed can bring cold air masses into the eastern US from these cold air source regions and with the “block” in the atmosphere during these events, cold air can stick around for awhile which is often an important pre-requisite for accumulating snow in some places such as the big cities of the I-95 corridor. “High-latitude blocking” during the winter season is characterized by persistent high pressure in northern latitude areas such as Greenland, northeastern Canada, and Iceland. There is evidence that low solar activity during solar minimum years tend to be well-correlated with more frequent “high-latitude blocking” events compared to normal.

This plot shows the daily observations of the number of sunspots during the last four solar cycles back to 1 January 1977 according to Solar Influences Data Analysis Center (SIDC). The thin blue line indicates the daily sunspot number, while the dark blue line indicates the running annual average. The current low sunspot activity is indicated by the arrow at the lower right of the plot. Last day shown: 30 Sep 2018. Data source: climate4you.com.

In terms of solar activity, we are now at the very end of the weakest solar cycle (#24) in more than a century and are rapidly approaching the next solar minimum – usually the least active time in a given solar cycle. In truth, there is a chance that we have already entered into the solar minimum phase which is not always known until “after-the-fact”. The last solar minimum that took place from 2007-to-2009 turned out to be the quietest period in at least a century and signs point to another deep solar minimum over the next couple of years. The last time an inactive sun coincided with a moderate El Nino event – somewhat similar to expectations for this winter - was during the winter of 2009-2010 and the Mid-Atlantic region experienced quite a cold and snowy winter with, for example, Washington, DC experiencing their snowiest winter ever. Looking back to the preceding solar minimum which occurred in 1995-1996, there also was a “gangbuster” winter season in the I-95 corridor which included one of the biggest snowstorms ever on January 6-9, 1996.

Low solar activity during solar minimum years is well correlated with abnormally high heights at 500 mb (indicated by red, orange, yellow in boxed region) in the winter season over high-latitude regions such as Greenland and Iceland (i.e.,“high-latitude blocking” pattern). Data courtesy NOAA/NCAR

The 500 mb height composite anomaly plot in previous low solar activity years during solar minimum phases features a clear and strong signal of higher heights than normal over Greenland and Iceland which is often associated with “high-latitude blocking” events. Based on these observations from previous low solar activity years, odds certainly would favor frequent “high-latitude blocking” events this upcoming winter given the very strong likelihood for low solar activity. This is one of many factors discussed in the “2018-2019 Winter Outlook” that suggest a colder and snowier than normal winter season in much of the eastern half of the nation.

In solar maximum years, while there still are higher heights than normal at 500 mb over Greenland, the overall “high-latitude blocking signal” is considerably weaker in the same January-March time period. Data courtesy NOAA/NCAR

Other impacts of the solar minimum

One of the most important ways the solar cycle affects our planet is by cooling off the thermosphere during solar minimum. The thermosphere is the part of the earth's atmosphere that begins at about 50 miles (80 kilometers) above the earth's surface, extends to outer space, and is characterized by steadily increasing temperature with height. New data from NASA’s SABER instrument confirms the notion that our atmosphere is losing heat energy near the edge of space as we approach solar minimum. In fact, if current trends continue, it could soon set a Space Age record for cold according to NASA . The SABER instrument monitors infrared radiation from carbon dioxide (CO2) and nitric oxide (NO), two substances that play a vital role in the energy output of our thermosphere, the very top level of our atmosphere.

There is good news and bad news in all of this. The good news is that when the thermosphere cools, it actually shrinks, thereby reducing drag on satellites in low Earth orbit which can increase the life of a satellite. The bad news is that this cooling aloft tends to delay the natural decay of space junk resulting in a more cluttered environment around Earth.

In addition to the impact on the thermosphere, low solar activity during solar minimum phases are usually associated with an increase in the number of galactic cosmic rays that reach the upper atmosphere as the sun’s magnetic field is weaker meaning it provides less of a shield from these highly energetic particles. The shielding action of the sun is strongest during Solar Maximum and weakest during Solar Minimum with the weakening magnetic field and solar wind. The intensity of cosmic rays varies globally by about 15% over a solar cycle because of changes in the strength of the solar wind. For more information on the recent increase in cosmic rays during this low solar activity period click here.

Meteorologist Paul Dorian
Perspecta, Inc.
perspectaweather.com


Declining solar output is giving IPCC hissy fits. They know they'll never see a 2C so they panicked and moved the goal posts to 1.5C.

Bravo!
 
MHz

MHz

Time Out
Mar 16, 2007
41,030
43
48
Red Deer AB
Bar Sinister said:
I never shake my head over your posts because I know their origin. I think by now everyone in CC knows that you are nothing but an oil company shill.
Click to expand...
Based on the knowledge shown in his very best posts that would be 'shill' as that is bottom of the pile for a human, or in this case what is left of what was once one.
 
Bar Sinister

Bar Sinister

Executive Branch Member
Jan 17, 2010
8,252
19
38
Edmonton
petros said:
Uh oh, Emperical Science is at it again and it's the same Science as 1978 but 40 years later as in today type later.

*The fast approaching solar minimum and its potential impact on the upcoming winter season*

Overview

In the long term, the sun is the main driver of all weather and climate and multi-decadal trends in solar activity can have major impacts on oceanic and atmospheric temperatures. In addition, empirical observations have shown that the sun can have important ramifications on weather and climate on shorter time scales including those associated with the average solar cycle of around 11-years. For example, there is evidence that low solar activity during solar minimum years tend to be well-correlated with more frequent “high-latitude blocking” events compared to normal and this type of atmospheric phenomenon can play an important role in the winter season.

Discussion

Weather conditions and snowpack during the fall and winter seasons in cold air source regions such as Greenland and northeastern Canada can, in turn, have quite an impact on the conditions experienced in the eastern US. These particular regions of North America are where many cold air masses originate and the fact that Greenland, for example, has been particularly cold since late July is quite a bullish sign for the formation of deep, cold air masses. [By the way, the temperature at Summit Station, Greenland at 4 PM on Sunday was minus 38 degrees (F)].

It is not only important to monitor the potential for the formation of cold air masses in these particular regions, it is also important to determine if there will be a mechanism to bring the cold air masses southward from the northern latitudes into the mid-latitudes including the Mid-Atlantic region. “High-latitude blocking” is a phrase given to just such an atmospheric phenomenon that indeed can bring cold air masses into the eastern US from these cold air source regions and with the “block” in the atmosphere during these events, cold air can stick around for awhile which is often an important pre-requisite for accumulating snow in some places such as the big cities of the I-95 corridor. “High-latitude blocking” during the winter season is characterized by persistent high pressure in northern latitude areas such as Greenland, northeastern Canada, and Iceland. There is evidence that low solar activity during solar minimum years tend to be well-correlated with more frequent “high-latitude blocking” events compared to normal.

This plot shows the daily observations of the number of sunspots during the last four solar cycles back to 1 January 1977 according to Solar Influences Data Analysis Center (SIDC). The thin blue line indicates the daily sunspot number, while the dark blue line indicates the running annual average. The current low sunspot activity is indicated by the arrow at the lower right of the plot. Last day shown: 30 Sep 2018. Data source: climate4you.com.

In terms of solar activity, we are now at the very end of the weakest solar cycle (#24) in more than a century and are rapidly approaching the next solar minimum – usually the least active time in a given solar cycle. In truth, there is a chance that we have already entered into the solar minimum phase which is not always known until “after-the-fact”. The last solar minimum that took place from 2007-to-2009 turned out to be the quietest period in at least a century and signs point to another deep solar minimum over the next couple of years. The last time an inactive sun coincided with a moderate El Nino event – somewhat similar to expectations for this winter - was during the winter of 2009-2010 and the Mid-Atlantic region experienced quite a cold and snowy winter with, for example, Washington, DC experiencing their snowiest winter ever. Looking back to the preceding solar minimum which occurred in 1995-1996, there also was a “gangbuster” winter season in the I-95 corridor which included one of the biggest snowstorms ever on January 6-9, 1996.

Low solar activity during solar minimum years is well correlated with abnormally high heights at 500 mb (indicated by red, orange, yellow in boxed region) in the winter season over high-latitude regions such as Greenland and Iceland (i.e.,“high-latitude blocking” pattern). Data courtesy NOAA/NCAR

The 500 mb height composite anomaly plot in previous low solar activity years during solar minimum phases features a clear and strong signal of higher heights than normal over Greenland and Iceland which is often associated with “high-latitude blocking” events. Based on these observations from previous low solar activity years, odds certainly would favor frequent “high-latitude blocking” events this upcoming winter given the very strong likelihood for low solar activity. This is one of many factors discussed in the “2018-2019 Winter Outlook” that suggest a colder and snowier than normal winter season in much of the eastern half of the nation.

In solar maximum years, while there still are higher heights than normal at 500 mb over Greenland, the overall “high-latitude blocking signal” is considerably weaker in the same January-March time period. Data courtesy NOAA/NCAR

Other impacts of the solar minimum

One of the most important ways the solar cycle affects our planet is by cooling off the thermosphere during solar minimum. The thermosphere is the part of the earth's atmosphere that begins at about 50 miles (80 kilometers) above the earth's surface, extends to outer space, and is characterized by steadily increasing temperature with height. New data from NASA’s SABER instrument confirms the notion that our atmosphere is losing heat energy near the edge of space as we approach solar minimum. In fact, if current trends continue, it could soon set a Space Age record for cold according to NASA . The SABER instrument monitors infrared radiation from carbon dioxide (CO2) and nitric oxide (NO), two substances that play a vital role in the energy output of our thermosphere, the very top level of our atmosphere.

There is good news and bad news in all of this. The good news is that when the thermosphere cools, it actually shrinks, thereby reducing drag on satellites in low Earth orbit which can increase the life of a satellite. The bad news is that this cooling aloft tends to delay the natural decay of space junk resulting in a more cluttered environment around Earth.

In addition to the impact on the thermosphere, low solar activity during solar minimum phases are usually associated with an increase in the number of galactic cosmic rays that reach the upper atmosphere as the sun’s magnetic field is weaker meaning it provides less of a shield from these highly energetic particles. The shielding action of the sun is strongest during Solar Maximum and weakest during Solar Minimum with the weakening magnetic field and solar wind. The intensity of cosmic rays varies globally by about 15% over a solar cycle because of changes in the strength of the solar wind. For more information on the recent increase in cosmic rays during this low solar activity period click here.

Meteorologist Paul Dorian
Perspecta, Inc.
perspectaweather.com


Declining solar output is giving IPCC hissy fits. They know they'll never see a 2C so they panicked and moved the goal posts to 1.5C.

Bravo!
Click to expand...


Yawn.
 
Bar Sinister

Bar Sinister

Executive Branch Member
Jan 17, 2010
8,252
19
38
Edmonton
petros said:
The only oil company I shill for is CO-OP. Are you a member? If no, why not?
Click to expand...


Co-op pretty much ceased to exist in Edmonton about three decades ago. All we have left are a few gas bars. However, I would like to point that when you oppose green energy and deny climate change you are shilling for all oil companies.
 
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