Open military to non citizens?

taxslave

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 25, 2008
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Canada continues to struggle to recruit people into its armed forces. Why?

Rather than answer that question the idea of recruiting non citizens into the forces is gaining some momentum. It works very well and many countries do it and always have. I was considering joining the Aussie air force at one point in the early 1990s. They were offering some good incentive to foreigners who were trained in certain areas and it was tempting.

IN Canada's case it is interesting that they have trouble recruiting in a economy where they should be flush with personnel. Why are they struggling?


Why are still at something like 16% female?

8% vis minority?

It is obvious that the military has not transformed itself for this century.

I would support foreign recruits. It would help and allow the mismanagement to continue unabated.

We have been doing this for decades. Not having much luck even though it is a guraunteed way to get citizenship. THey even let Quebecers in even though they don't speak English.

It actually goes beyond this.

The armed forces is a drain on our resources to respond to national emergencies.

We could have a wing of water bombing aircraft for the price of our F18s. We would be world leaders in that field.

Instead we are non consequential players in geopolitics.

We ought to divorce our search and rescue / first response assets from the military, such that they do not have to compete with f18s for money and people.

Do tell, how do you propose to protect our boarders with no fighting aircraft.
Hey ES quit hogging the popcorn this is going to be good. I'm thinking of making some tea to go with it.

As we bomb your infrastructure, you will deteriorate.

You would make those poor goats sleep out in the desert with no shed?

Bombs aren't cheap. They hurt the national debt.

Made in Canada ones provide jobs. And votes.
 

Retired_Can_Soldier

The End of the Dog is Coming!
Mar 19, 2006
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I love watching idiots who know nothing about our military give commentary on it, It's like watching an amoeba do bad comedy.
 

Danbones

Hall of Fame Member
Sep 23, 2015
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You'll have to wait till the kanuck is done eating the bear because he will be full for a while.
;)
but then later, after he spits out the fur, he will likely want some desert.

[youtube]JsPIzRsUtlE[/youtube]

One on one soldier Tug of War, Canada vs USA

I see why you US guys put so much faith in big magazines.
;)
 

Curious Cdn

Hall of Fame Member
Feb 22, 2015
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You'll have to wait till the kanuck is done eating the bear because he will be full for a while.
;)
but then later, after he spits out the fur, he will likely want some desert.

[youtube]JsPIzRsUtlE[/youtube]

One on one soldier Tug of War, Canada vs USA

I see why you US guys put so much faith in big magazines.
;)

The relish jars from Hell ...
 

Hoid

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 15, 2017
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all three jar heads who are getting kicked out over making the jacking off on the koran video are males.

The Ford campaign will probably scoop them up.
 

White_Unifier

Senate Member
Feb 21, 2017
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all three jar heads who are getting kicked out over making the jacking off on the koran video are males.

The Ford campaign will probably scoop them up.

How does their sex relate to this? Let's say they'd been women sticking a Koran up their crotch, how would that have been any different?

Back on topic: the US, British, French, and other armed forces accept foreign recruits. Correct me if I'm wrong, but their forces seem to be doing just fine.
 

Hoid

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 15, 2017
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How does their sex relate to this? Let's say they'd been women sticking a Koran up their crotch, how would that have been any different?

Back on topic: the US, British, French, and other armed forces accept foreign recruits. Correct me if I'm wrong, but their forces seem to be doing just fine.
It would have been somewhat less likely? Less predictable?

I believe everyone who has commented on this is for the idea. Even me.

The use of foreign born in the military is as old as the military. Certainly then Romans did it extensively.
 

DaSleeper

Trolling Hypocrites
May 27, 2007
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Northern Ontario,

Bar Sinister

Executive Branch Member
Jan 17, 2010
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There are multiple reasons for not wanting a military career. First, it pays poorly and opportunities for advancement are limited due to a system of promotion strongly based on seniority. Second it has shown itself to be intolerant of minorities and women. And Third, there is a chance you'll suffer bodily harm in which case the government will ignore you and deny you benefits.
 

White_Unifier

Senate Member
Feb 21, 2017
7,300
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There are multiple reasons for not wanting a military career. First, it pays poorly and opportunities for advancement are limited due to a system of promotion strongly based on seniority. Second it has shown itself to be intolerant of minorities and women. And Third, there is a chance you'll suffer bodily harm in which case the government will ignore you and deny you benefits.

A force that accepts foreign nationals would likely tend more towards openness of other nationalities than one that doesn't, at least relatively speaking.

Also, even if you're not physically injured, killing people must certainly have an impact on the mind. Except when the situation is crystal clear, you'd always be second-guessing yourself wondering if you had to kill that person of if you had an alternative option.
 

Hoid

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 15, 2017
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A very small percentage of military members ever see combat let alone kill anyone.

They are mostly reservists with little time in, making them cheap and easy to replace.

You will find the reserve is where they are really hurting for people.
 

Retired_Can_Soldier

The End of the Dog is Coming!
Mar 19, 2006
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Okay, let's break this down.


There are multiple reasons for not wanting a military career. First, it pays poorly and opportunities for advancement are limited due to a system of promotion strongly based on seniority.
You are right that the pay isn't the best, given the mission. Especially if you are a combat arms soldier, as I was. The infantry, artillery, armored, and engineers don't make that much money. On the second part of the above statement you are wrong. Now, in the odd case there are people who get promoted for political reasons. But seniority? Seniority doesn't play a role in promotion. The bulk of service people who get promoted because they show or have leadership qualities. I went from a no-hook gunner to a detachment commander in three years. This didn't happen because I had seniority, it happened because I showed leadership traits and my superiors saw fit to put me in training that tested and improved those traits. Seniority is a union thing, not a military thing. Promotion is afforded through hard work and the ability to advance your knowledge.



Second it has shown itself to be intolerant of minorities and women.
I love this one. I served with the first two female combat soldiers in Canada's army back in 1989 and remain friends with both today. When they came on board, there was skepticism, but before long they were adopted and part of the, for lack of a better word, brotherhood, in a very short time. I also served with a Fernandez, Sharma, Singh and a bunch of others who might fit into your limited view of intolerance. Here's something you might want to consider when developing your opinions. It was passed on to me by a regimental sergeant major. When a guy who works at the Royal Bank does something stupid, like says something racist or gets an impaired charge, it reflects on him. The general public doesn't say, "Oh look at that, the Royal Bank employees are at it again!" In the case of a soldier, or even a handful of soldiers, a broad brush of judgment is applied to all. The incident in Somalia is a fine example of how everyone gets tarred and feathered by the actions of a few idiots. When Master Corporal Mache and Private Kyle Brown killed that Somali kid they had in custody, we all bore the brunt of that. Every soldier in my combat unit that I knew was disgusted by what they did and didn't buy Kyle Brown's version of events. Being that he was a victim and was scared and following orders. Bullshit. He had a choice. He chose to involve himself in a murder.



And Third, there is a chance you'll suffer bodily harm in which case the government will ignore you and deny you benefits.
On this you are absolutely correct. That's the deal with the military. It's objective is national defense and it is works with both Nato and the UN. I've lost friends, seen people injured and was medically released after sustaining injuries to my legs over the course of my career. I spent the first five years I was out fighting veterans affairs and never got compensation or treatment for my injuries. Eventually, after dusting myself off, I decided that my mental health and my family was more important than the very public battle I fought with a tone deaf bureaucracy.


But this problem is as much the fault of the Canadian public as it is the Government of Canada. Canadians love to put stickers and license plates on their cars or wear poppies on Remembrance Day, but that is all they do. Canadians have the ability to change this, but choose to shake their heads then forget about it.



Anyway, that is all I've got to say.
 
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Tecumsehsbones

Hall of Fame Member
Mar 18, 2013
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I'm real sorry you got treated like that, RCS.

Do you have the faintest idea how much admiration I have for the way you rose above it and pressed on?
 

Curious Cdn

Hall of Fame Member
Feb 22, 2015
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The tradition of promoting competence and "uptraining" ranks (corporals to perform as sergeants, etc.) Is a hundred years old in the Canadian army and it goes straight back to Aurthur Currie's Canadian Corps at Vimy. The flexibility and adaptability of the rank structure is a hallmark of our army. We have some of the best soldiers on the planet in our forces, just not nearly enough of them.

By the way, recruiting foreigners is nothing new. Early in WWII, thousands of Americans came up here to enlist in our forces. Conversly, aproxximately 20,000 Canadians want south to enlist there during the Vietnam war. The British have their Ghurka Rifles, the French still have their Foreign Legion. It's not a new concept.
 

Bar Sinister

Executive Branch Member
Jan 17, 2010
8,252
19
38
Edmonton
Okay, let's break this down.


You are right that the pay isn't the best, given the mission. Especially if you are a combat arms soldier, as I was. The infantry, artillery, armored, and engineers don't make that much money. On the second part of the above statement you are wrong. Now, in the odd case there are people who get promoted for political reasons. But seniority? Seniority doesn't play a role in promotion. The bulk of service people who get promoted because they show or have leadership qualities. I went from a no-hook gunner to a detachment commander in three years. This didn't happen because I had seniority, it happened because I showed leadership traits and my superiors saw fit to put me in training that tested and improved those traits. Seniority is a union thing, not a military thing. Promotion is afforded through hard work and the ability to advance your knowledge.



I love this one. I served with the first two female combat soldiers in Canada's army back in 1989 and remain friends with both today. When they came on board, there was skepticism, but before long they were adopted and part of the, for lack of a better word, brotherhood, in a very short time. I also served with a Fernandez, Sharma, Singh and a bunch of others who might fit into your limited view of intolerance. Here's something you might want to consider when developing your opinions. It was passed on to me by a regimental sergeant major. When a guy who works at the Royal Bank does something stupid, like says something racist or gets an impaired charge, it reflects on him. The general public doesn't say, "Oh look at that, the Royal Bank employees are at it again!" In the case of a soldier, or even a handful of soldiers, a broad brush of judgment is applied to all. The incident in Somalia is a fine example of how everyone gets tarred and feathered by the actions of a few idiots. When Master Corporal Mache and Private Kyle Brown killed that Somali kid they had in custody, we all bore the brunt of that. Every soldier in my combat unit that I knew was disgusted by what they did and didn't buy Kyle Brown's version of events. Being that he was a victim and was scared and following orders. Bullshit. He had a choice. He chose to involve himself in a murder.



On this you are absolutely correct. That's the deal with the military. It's objective is national defense and it is works with both Nato and the UN. I've lost friends, seen people injured and was medically released after sustaining injuries to my legs over the course of my career. I spent the first five years I was out fighting veterans affairs and never got compensation or treatment for my injuries. Eventually, after dusting myself off, I decided that my mental health and my family was more important than the very public battle I fought with a tone deaf bureaucracy.


But this problem is as much the fault of the Canadian public as it is the Government of Canada. Canadians love to put stickers and license plates on their cars or wear poppies on Remembrance Day, but that is all they do. Canadians have the ability to change this, but choose to shake their heads then forget about it.



Anyway, that is all I've got to say.


Recent news reports do not jive with your beliefs. There are dozens of online reports from a variety of sources describing problems of discrimination and the current military is so top heavy with officers that the promotion queue is being held up all down the line.