Toronto Police Officer Charges in Connection with Streetcar Shooting

Zipperfish

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Have to wait for the details on this before I make judgment. Initial impression is that the cop does not handle stress well--someone who tazers a guy who's been hit nine times, to my mind, is not behaving very rationally. Technically speaking, agressively brandishing a knife can be legitimate grounds for lethal force though.
 
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Zipperfish

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Yeah, too many cops, in general, these days methinks. Nothing against them, mind you. I just think that the optimal number is smaller than the number we have now.
 

Cobalt_Kid

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Feb 3, 2007
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You really have to ask what was the intent of the officer or officers who shot Sammy Yatim. Special Forces and SWAT are trained to shoot hostile targets(people) two shots to the center mass and move on, it almost always eliminates the target(person) as a threat and often kills them. Yatim was shot three times at first, it's highly unlikely he was getting up again, possibly ever, the next six shots can only really be considered kill shots intended to make sure he did in fact die. That certainly does sound like murder to me.
 

Goober

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As long as he isn't armed and surrounded by peers to impress, he'll be fine.


Did the others discharge 6 more rounds after the guy was down?

I do not know. Just posting what was noted in a number of recent news articles regarding Officers charged with manslaughter.
 

SLM

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Have to wait for the details on this before I make judgment. Initial impression is that the cop does not handle stress well--someone who tazers a guy who's been hit nine times, to my mind, is not behaving very rationally. Technically speaking, agressively brandishing a knife can be legitimate grounds for lethal force though.

If I'm not mistaken it was another officer that tasered him after.
 

Goober

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Those extra six shots almost landed him first degree murder.

6 shots, pause then 3 more, pause then Tasered.
The SIU in Ontario is Freaking Useless when investigating Officers that are alleged to have committed serious crimes / abuse of authority. When Marin was there it was different.

Also 2nd degree murder has a very high standard, that the Officer intended to kill. Rather hard to prove.
Manslaughter would have been the right charge.
The Officers training is to shoot to kill. Not wound, not shoot the knife out of his hand.
I smells a rat.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/story/2013/08/19/f-forcillo-yatim-toronto-streetcar-shooting.html
Second-degree murder implies intent to kill the victim. The Crown brings a manslaughter charge when it does not believe the killing was intentional.

Selwyn Pieters, a Toronto lawyer with considerable experience representing the families of people shot by police, told CBC News that while a charge of second-degree murder does leave the judge and jury with a number of options, including opting for a less charge, he thinks the charge in Forcillo's case should have been manslaughter.

"It's going to be a more difficult hurdle for the Crown to surmount if it's second degree," Pieters said. He described prosecuting this case as a "Herculean task."

Pieters also noted that jurors have been reluctant to convict police officers acting in the line of duty. "Rarely do we have cases where police officers are charged and heard before a jury on serious offences and a verdict of guilty is returned," he said.
 
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#juan

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6 shots, pause then 3 more, pause then Tasered.
The SIU in Ontario is Freaking Useless when investigating Officers that are alleged to have committed serious crimes / abuse of authority. When Marin was there it was different.

I believe it was three shots, a pause, and six more shots, at a range of what, ten or twelve feet? The guy went down after the first three shots. I don't know why the officer fired the next six shots.
 

Cobalt_Kid

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The Officers training is to shoot to kill. Not wound, not shoot the knife out of his hand.
I smells a rat.

They're trained to shoot center of mass, not to kill. Their job isn't executioners, it's to enforce the law and protect citizens.
 

petros

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I believe it was three shots, a pause, and six more shots, at a range of what, ten or twelve feet? The guy went down after the first three shots. I don't know why the officer fired the next six shots.
That's what murders do.
 

Goober

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I believe it was three shots, a pause, and six more shots, at a range of what, ten or twelve feet? The guy went down after the first three shots. I don't know why the officer fired the next six shots.

Yes you are correct.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/toronto/toronto-officer-arrives-in-court/article13867299/

The charge is in connection to the July 26 incident when Sammy Yatim, 18, pulled out a three-inch blade on a westbound Dundas streetcar near Trinity Bellwoods Park. The passengers and driver fled the vehicle unharmed leaving Mr. Yatim behind. When police arrived, a witness video of the incident shows a verbal interaction between Mr. Yatim and officers on the ground. The teen can be seen taking a step forward at which time an officer fires three gun shots at Mr. Yatim, at which point he falls to the floor. After a pause, six more shots are fired at Mr. Yatim. Following this, an officer can be heard using a taser in the video.
 

Goober

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They're trained to shoot center of mass, not to kill. Their job isn't executioners, it's to enforce the law and protect citizens.

Center of body mass is kill. What do you think it means. Your heart is located in that very center.
 

Colpy

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Center of body mass is kill. What do you think it means. Your heart is located in that very center.

It means STOP. Kill is irrelevant.

I believe it was three shots, a pause, and six more shots, at a range of what, ten or twelve feet? The guy went down after the first three shots. I don't know why the officer fired the next six shots.

Yeah....and as purely a matter of conjecture, you are correct.

There needs to be three things present to use force.

INTENT
WEAPON
DELIVERY SYSYEM.

The guy had all three while on his feet, but when he went down, he no longer had a delivery system (one would think).....and the pause gave the officer time to reconsider.

If he is convicted, the last 6 will be what does it.

BUT...I wasn't there.......
 

petros

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colpy said:
If he is convicted, the last 6 will be what does it.
Those last 6 almost gave him a full on first degree murder. He was lucky the Crown didn't proceed with that charge.
 

JLM

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They're trained to shoot center of mass, not to kill. Their job isn't executioners, it's to enforce the law and protect citizens.

If you are shooting for centre of mass, man for all intents and purposes it's going to be fatal. Of course a real sharp shooter would just take an ear off and see if that slows him down. -:)

Those last 6 almost gave him a full on first degree murder. He was lucky the Crown didn't proceed with that charge.

Nah, to be first degree it has to be premeditated and definitely not a motive of self defense.

6 shots, pause then 3 more, pause then Tasered.
The SIU in Ontario is Freaking Useless when investigating Officers that are alleged to have committed serious crimes / abuse of authority. When Marin was there it was different.

Also 2nd degree murder has a very high standard, that the Officer intended to kill. Rather hard to prove.
Manslaughter would have been the right charge.
The Officers training is to shoot to kill. Not wound, not shoot the knife out of his hand.
I smells a rat.

Why James Forcillo was charged with murder in Yatim shooting - Canada - CBC News
Second-degree murder implies intent to kill the victim. The Crown brings a manslaughter charge when it does not believe the killing was intentional.

Selwyn Pieters, a Toronto lawyer with considerable experience representing the families of people shot by police, told CBC News that while a charge of second-degree murder does leave the judge and jury with a number of options, including opting for a less charge, he thinks the charge in Forcillo's case should have been manslaughter.

"It's going to be a more difficult hurdle for the Crown to surmount if it's second degree," Pieters said. He described prosecuting this case as a "Herculean task."

Pieters also noted that jurors have been reluctant to convict police officers acting in the line of duty. "Rarely do we have cases where police officers are charged and heard before a jury on serious offences and a verdict of guilty is returned," he said.

It was three shots before the pause followed by 6 more shots. I'm not sure what degree of deadness he was shooting for!
 

karrie

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Jan 6, 2007
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INTENT

DELIVERY SYSYEM.

The guy had all three while on his feet,

20 feet, with three stairs. There are an awful lot of people who dispute the claim that he possessed the delivery system.

And intent seems to be negated by ordering all the vulnerable people he had within arms reach, to leave the scene.

These are some serious questions that this officer will face.