Fish lovers & farmed fish haters- aquaculture done right

[Tonington]

There's been at least a few threads on this forum that take a pessimistic view of aquaculture/mariculture. To be certain, not all aquaculture is created equally. I could bore you all with the details, but some people have a better way with words.

Watch this chef, talking about two love stories he had with fish. Both farmed, one ends as some relationships do, it fizzles out as one lover loses interest. The other, it's more like the stuff fairy tales are made of.

It's from one of the TED talks.

I hope you all can enjoy it as much as I did:
YouTube - Dan Barber: How I fell in love with a fish

 

[bill barilko]

I can't take listening to that Guy's squeaky whining voice-just drives me.

It's nice that some perfect delta in a perfect [place produces perfect fish (and of course perfect opportunities for profit) but most of the real world is somewhat messier.

 

[dumpthemonarchy]

Farmed fish is an oxymoron. And they taste soft and mushy. Probably like poop. You don't farm carnivores and fish are carnivores, yet it's done because it is a moneymaker, and despite disease and sea lice they produce.

Crapola.

 

[Tonington]

It's nice that some perfect delta in a perfect [place produces perfect fish (and of course perfect opportunities for profit) but most of the real world is somewhat messier.

It wasn't a perfect delta when it was converted to a fish farm. There is no reason a messy real world can't be made less messy.

Nice defeatist attitude you have there...

Farmed fish is an oxymoron. And they taste soft and mushy. Probably like poop. You don't farm carnivores and fish are carnivores, yet it's done because it is a moneymaker, and despite disease and sea lice they produce.

Crapola.

Like I said, not all aquaculture is created equally. Did you watch the video? The difference between the farmed fish you had, and the farmed fish this chef had, is the difference between intensively farmed and extensively farmed. When a farm is intensive, all the nutrition is provided by the farmer. When the farm is extensive, all the nutrition comes from the pond the fish inhabit.

The difference is comparable to cows on a feed lot, and cows raised on natural prairie. Also, the fish he was talking about was not carnivorous, they were omnivorous. We eat omnivores all the time. Chickens and pigs.

 

[CDNBear]

And I can still taste a difference, while my wallet feels abused.

I understand it's a excellently sustainable industry and I am well aware of your connection and participation Ton, but it has a long way to go to beat the taste and price Mother Nature has.

I think I'll stick to catching my own, lol.

 

[taxslave]

And I can still taste a difference, while my wallet feels abused.

I understand it's a excellently sustainable industry and I am well aware of your connection and participation Ton, but it has a long way to go to beat the taste and price Mother Nature has.

I think I'll stick to catching my own, lol.

I think it has a lot to do with the way they are prepared. Or perhaps where they were raised.I have eaten lots of farmed fish that are every bit as good as wild. In one restaurant in Victoria I had to ask the chef if they were wild or not. It as farmed and good.
There are lots of misperceptions about farmed salmon. The anti everything crowd tells us that they cause sea lice but not a single smolt has ever hit the salt water with lice. They pick up the lice in the salt water from passing wild salmon. They are also trying to blame the poor Sockeye returns on farms but ignore the near record runs of other species of salmon in the same area.

 

[CDNBear]

I think it has a lot to do with the way they are prepared. Or perhaps where they were raised.I have eaten lots of farmed fish that are every bit as good as wild. In one restaurant in Victoria I had to ask the chef if they were wild or not. It as farmed and good.

When it comes to fish, I have an extremely well trained pallet. I can and have identified farm and wild fish on many occasions, for people who claim there is no difference and I'm full of shyte.

There is a huge difference. The process that Ton is talking about now, is tantamount to freerange fish, and I will admit I do have a hard time differentiating them from wild, but in the end I can. I spend a considerable amount of time and effort on fishing, my two main targeted species are Salmon and Trout. I have eaten them since I was a kid, in fact they have been an extensive part of my diet for the bulk of my life.

Now, even though I can tell the difference, and I much prefer wild to what we have begun to call "domestic", I still recognize the necessity to build and maintain a sustainable supply. Which is why I have followed Ton's posts on the subject for a few years now, and have always appreciated his efforts and his pursuit of an education in the field.

There are lots of misperceptions about farmed salmon.

I agree, but I'm under the influence of none of them. I actually endorse the industry and have actually been part of it to some extent in the Saugeen watershed, with regards to the Brown Trout stocks, as a volunteer.

The anti everything crowd tells us that they cause sea lice but not a single smolt has ever hit the salt water with lice. They pick up the lice in the salt water from passing wild salmon. They are also trying to blame the poor Sockeye returns on farms but ignore the near record runs of other species of salmon in the same area.

Again, misconceptions I do not delude myself with.

My two main areas of concern are trivial really, taste and cost. Although regular domestic Salmonoids are relatively cheap, compared to their wild cousins, the freerange variety are not. At least in these parts of the world.

 

[Tonington]

I understand it's a excellently sustainable industry and I am well aware of your connection and participation Ton, but it has a long way to go to beat the taste and price Mother Nature has.

This Spanish farm is Mother Nature...there is no fish meal, no fish oil, no soy protein, no wheat middlings...the fish feed on the same prey and forage items of a wild fish in that area.

The farmed fish taste and have that consistency because they are being fed energy dense feeds, for salmon that's high fat content. These fish from the canals in Spain wouldn't have that problem, no more than the walleye in your favourite lake would.

I think I'll stick to catching my own, lol.

The places where aquaculture is big, do not really have much in the way of natural resources like you have access to in Ontario lakes.

 

[CDNBear]

This Spanish farm is Mother Nature...there is no fish meal, no fish oil, no soy protein, no wheat middlings...the fish feed on the same prey and forage items of a wild fish in that area.

That's pretty much like they have set up out side Saugeen Shores. They don't feed the Browns, they let them run wild in an enclosed part of a watershed, on private lands. They trap them when they are big enough to be released into the Saugeen. The odd few escape capture and we sometimes fish the water body for the hell of it. I can taste the difference. You can actually see the difference in the fish. Very much like traitional farmed types, the colour is off, the nose is blunted and the taste is not quite the same. We've discussed it at great lengths, and we've yet to come to a definitive conclusion as to why.

The only thing we can think of is the fact that the smolts are raised in aquaculture tanks, because we see the same problems in the Whitefish, Rainbow and Salmon stocks. Even though they are released when they're smolts, they still don't grow the same way. Their colour is off, the flesh isn't quite right and the taste, yes even though they grow in Lake Simcoe, or Ontario, free as can be, is slightly different.

The farmed fish taste and have that consistency because they are being fed energy dense feeds, for salmon that's high fat content. These fish from the canals in Spain wouldn't have that problem, no more than the walleye in your favourite lake would.

I hope so, it would be nice to see something new in that area. I'm not alone in my opinion of the less then great flavour and texture of domestic Salmonoids.

Hey, they're getting better, hopefully one day they'll actually replicate the flavour and texture and the wild stocks can be left to heal. You know I'm all for that!!!

But I think the industry has to go back to the beginning so to speak, and start at the egg and milk stage. If the early stages of development can be achieved in a wild setting, the significant draw backs might be over come.

At what stage are the ones in Spain being released into the system?

The places where aquaculture is big, do not really have much in the way of natural resources like you have access to in Ontario lakes.

True, but I have sampled wild and domestic from various sources. That's where I get my opinion from. The fish guy at Sobey's likes me to wait until everyone else is served and gone before I start talking, lmao. I'll blame you for a bit of that too, lol.

 

[Tonington]

We've discussed it at great lengths, and we've yet to come to a definitive conclusion as to why.

If they're confined within an enclosure, they're being limited from exploiting the entire food web in the larger water body. I'd bet the enclosure doesn't have the same biodiversity as the entire lake, and I know it won't have the same niches to exploit. If you limit what the fish can feed on, of course it should taste different than the fish which aren't limited in this way.

At what stage are the ones in Spain being released into the system?

I'm not sure, but I would assume it's like most other brackish pond culture. Once they're post-larval (absorption of the yolk sac) they can be stocked into the ponds. The ponds would have higher productivity than can be achieved by growing brine shrimp, algae and rotifers in a hatchery.

 

[L Gilbert]

There's been at least a few threads on this forum that take a pessimistic view of aquaculture/mariculture. To be certain, not all aquaculture is created equally. I could bore you all with the details, but some people have a better way with words.

Watch this chef, talking about two love stories he had with fish. Both farmed, one ends as some relationships do, it fizzles out as one lover loses interest. The other, it's more like the stuff fairy tales are made of.

It's from one of the TED talks.

I hope you all can enjoy it as much as I did:

The guy makes very good points. Mixed in with some humor. Good clip, Ton.

I can't take listening to that Guy's squeaky whining voice-just drives me.

:roll: So turn it off and quit being whiny.

It's nice that some perfect delta in a perfect [place produces perfect fish (and of course perfect opportunities for profit) but most of the real world is somewhat messier.

The whole point is to learn to become less messy, Sherlock.

Farmed fish is an oxymoron.

You obviously haven't a clue what "oxymoron" means.

And they taste soft and mushy. Probably like poop. You don't farm carnivores and fish are carnivores, yet it's done because it is a moneymaker, and despite disease and sea lice they produce.

Crapola.

Not all farms are the same. You have a single-sided viewpoint because that is all you've heard about. There are some responsible farms around and the farm the guy was talking about in Tonington's clip proves that, Einstein.

And I can still taste a difference, while my wallet feels abused.

I understand it's a excellently sustainable industry and I am well aware of your connection and participation Ton, but it has a long way to go to beat the taste and price Mother Nature has.

I think I'll stick to catching my own, lol.

At the present rate of destruction, there may not be much wild left after a couple decades. (google "BC salmon news ", for instance)

I think it has a lot to do with the way they are prepared. Or perhaps where they were raised.I have eaten lots of farmed fish that are every bit as good as wild. In one restaurant in Victoria I had to ask the chef if they were wild or not. It as farmed and good.
There are lots of misperceptions about farmed salmon. The anti everything crowd tells us that they cause sea lice but not a single smolt has ever hit the salt water with lice. They pick up the lice in the salt water from passing wild salmon.

Yes, but the problem is that in the wild the salmon are not concentrated in one area and there are predators that feed on the lice to keep the population down. In the intensive farms, the lice breed like crazy.
The issue is a little more complicated than you seem to realize.

They are also trying to blame the poor Sockeye returns on farms but ignore the near record runs of other species of salmon in the same area.

Like which other subspecies?

 

[Risus]

Farmed fish is an oxymoron. And they taste soft and mushy. Probably like poop. You don't farm carnivores and fish are carnivores, yet it's done because it is a moneymaker, and despite disease and sea lice they produce.

Crapola.

I gotta agree with you on this one...

 

[relic]

You lads better get used to the taste of "farmed" fish,{me,I eat the char from the farm I work at part time,and they'er very good,and I've eaten a lot of fish}'cause it won't be long 'till that's all there is

 

[Liberalman]

More oil spills and chemicals are ending up in the oceans and the fish are disappearing and fish farming will be the only way to get fish.

As the price goes up more farmers will get into the business.

One can raise fish anywhere in Canada all is required is a couple of concrete tanks, equipment and fish food.

With the push for local products this is a win/win solution.

Since this is a new industry solutions will be found for the problems.
.
.

 

[Tonington]

You lads better get used to the taste of "farmed" fish,{me,I eat the char from the farm I work at part time,and they'er very good,and I've eaten a lot of fish}'cause it won't be long 'till that's all there is

Millbrook charr?

One can raise fish anywhere in Canada all is required is a couple of concrete tanks, equipment and fish food.

Not quite all. You will also need an environmental impact assessment. There's a whole slew of regulatory affairs to go through.

Also, concrete isn't a good material to use, unless you want to have fish with no fins left. Much harder to keep clean also.

 

[taxslave]

Like which other subspecies?
I believe that it was pinks in the Johnstone Straight area last winter as well as a good run of springs. I would have to find the news paper article again to be sure.

 

[Johnnny]

im with CDNbear on this one, the fish ive caught personally have been better tasting than the fish ive bought at the store...... I know how to cook fish too, i learned to fish before i learned to ride a bike.... Its just i find theres a wild game taste that the fish have after eating a wide variety of stuff like crayfish, other fish, blood worms etc... Also too, no farmed fish can beat the lake trout, walleye or northern pike from deep cold water where they swim freely... Deep cold water makes a huge difference on the meat... Most working class heroes know this its not being stubborn

 

[Tonington]

Well, sockeye harvest rates were in the region of 75 to 80% of the Frasier river return rate from 1980-1994. That's simply not a sustainable level of harvest. It didn't work for the Grand Banks, it didn't work for peruvian anchovies, it didn't work for the whale harvests, it isn't working for bluefin tuna, it's not working period.

I have no idea why to this day (rhetorical, it's politics of course) most regulatory agencies continue to use proven faulty models for forecasting population and what is truly a sustainable harvest level. There are better models out there. Proven models. But they require an investment, which comes as lower quotas now, for sustained higher quotas in the long run. Eliminate the maximum sustainable yield, and replace it with the optimum sustainable yield or maximum economic yield.

 

[pgs]

I don't neccesarily disagree with your assecement of earlier catch allocations
But please explain how transfering quota from tax paying private citizens to nontaxpaying status natives is helping the plight of the sokeye?

 

[Tonington]

I don't neccesarily disagree with your assecement of earlier catch allocations
But please explain how transfering quota from tax paying private citizens to nontaxpaying status natives is helping the plight of the sokeye?

I don't think I ever said that transfering quota from anyone is helping. I said the entire quota needs to come down, that is regardless of who your ancestors are. In totality, the quota has to come down, or it won't really matter if you're tax exempt or not. When the fish are gone they don't normally come back.