Immanuel Velikovsky, scientist or twit?

[#juan]

Immanuel Velikovski, a Russian born psychiatrist, proposed a series of unlikely astronomical events, not the least of which was the ejection of the planet Venus from Jupiter. Now Jupiter has an escape velocity of 59.5 km/sec so the energy needed to spit out Venus would likely have blown the planet to bits but the story gets better. Venus, according to Velikovski, had several close encounters with Earth before settling into it's now near circular orbit.



Immanuel Velikovsky

What Carl Sagan has to say about Velikovsky

 

[#juan]

More on Venus:

quoting Carl Sagan
Further, the mass of Venus is more than 5 x 10^27 grams. The total kinetic energy required to propel Venus from Jupiter's escape velocity is about 10^41 ergs, which is equivalent to all the energy radiated by the Sun in one year and 100 million times more powerful than the largest solar flare ever observed. V wants us to believe that an ejection event occured on Jupiter that was vastly more powerful than anything on the Sun.

Velikovski was certainly no scientist.

 

[darkbeaver]

Too bad he's dead Juan, you and Dexter could burn him in the village square if not.

PS: His record of prediction is miles better than Hawkings who to date has failed to explain anything.

"If, occasionally, historical evidence does not square with formulated laws, it should be remembered that a law is but a deduction from experience and experiment, and therefore laws must conform with historical facts, not facts with laws." Immanuel Velikovsky

 

[#juan]

Too bad he's dead Juan, you and Dexter could burn him in the village square if not.

PS: His record of prediction is miles better than Hawkings who to date has failed to explain anything.

"If, occasionally, historical evidence does not square with formulated laws, it should be remembered that a law is but a deduction from experience and experiment, and therefore laws must conform with historical facts, not facts with laws." Immanuel Velikovsky

Interesting how Velikovski made Venus visit Earth several times in order for it to coincide with various, Biblical catasrophies.

Fortunately, most of Velikovsky's theories are so outlandish that a grade eight student could see though the errors. That a respected, real scientist took the time to critique Velikovsky's insane ramblings and pull apart 10 of the main parts of his story in a book shows Sagan's dedication to his science.

 

[Dexter Sinister]

If scientist or twit are the only options, I'll go with twit. Read this and draw your own conclusions.

 

[darkbeaver]

Interesting how Velikovski made Venus visit Earth several times in order for it to coincide with various, Biblical catasrophies.

Fortunately, most of Velikovsky's theories are so outlandish that a grade eight student could see though the errors. That a respected, real scientist took the time to critique Velikovsky's insane ramblings and pull apart 10 of the main parts of his story in a book shows Sagan's dedication to his science.

Sagan was a TV celebrity Juan his books are complete rubbish, his contribution to science was smearing Velikovsky. I just reread comet, it's total crap.

 

[#juan]

There is some good reading there Dexter. I haven't read it all but I've bookmarked it and I will get back to it.
I suppose there are a number of gradient levels between scientist and twit that might more correctly fit Mr. Velikovsy but the careless way he treated his research is not the way of a scientist.
I've read two of his books years ago; "Worlds in Collision" and "Earth in Upheaval", and I've also read Carl Sagan's critque of Velikovsky's theories. I have to admit that the more I read about the guy, the closer I drift to the attitude that he was a twit with no credentials in astronomy, geology, or any of the fields he has invaded.

 

[darkbeaver]

If scientist or twit are the only options, I'll go with twit. Read this and draw your own conclusions.

I'v read lots of refutation of Velikovsky. It always struck me how many people delighted in the task, no matter, they'll all be forgotten while a new generation will be a little kinder.

 

[darkbeaver]

Interesting how Velikovski made Venus visit Earth several times in order for it to coincide with various, Biblical catasrophies.

Fortunately, most of Velikovsky's theories are so outlandish that a grade eight student could see though the errors. That a respected, real scientist took the time to critique Velikovsky's insane ramblings and pull apart 10 of the main parts of his story in a book shows Sagan's dedication to his science.

Outlandish, like a round planet or earth circling the sun or flying machines? Sagan was dedicated to making crappy popular science docudramas with horrible mood music. He discovered nothing, made no contribution, and will be forgotten while Velikovsky will be rightly remembered, just wait and see.

 

[#juan]

Sagan was a TV celebrity Juan his books are complete rubbish, his contribution to science was smearing Velikovsky. I just reread comet, it's total crap.

You've obviously never read Sagan's books. Carl Sagan's Cosmos TV series introduced millions of young people to astronomy and many of those people are astronomers today because of Carl Sagan.
Read "Dragons of Eden". I can't think why anyone would call that book rubbish if they ever read it.

How could a real scientist do anything but smear Velikovsky?

 

[darkbeaver]

More on Venus:

Velikovski was certainly no scientist.

>> The enormous difference in strength of the electric force compared to gravity is shown in this example. The magnitude of the difference suggests that gravity is due to electric dipolar distortion of subatomic particles. Unfortunately, graduate students in astrophysics are taught that the attractive electric force between unlike charges is so huge that plasma in space must be charge neutral. Observation shows that this is only approximately so. The example above shows that even the smallest departure from charge neutrality can have significant effect! Diagram: Department of Physics & Astronomy, Georgia State University.

 

[#juan]

Sagan was a TV celebrity Juan his books are complete rubbish, his contribution to science was smearing Velikovsky. I just reread comet, it's total crap.

You've obviously never read Sagan's books. Carl Sagan's Cosmos TV series introduced millions of young people to astronomy and many of those people are astronomers today because of Carl Sagan.
Read "Dragons of Eden". I can't think why anyone would call that book rubbish if they ever read it.

How could a real scientist do anything but smear Velikovsky?

 

[darkbeaver]

You've obviously never read Sagan's books. Carl Sagan's Cosmos TV series introduced millions of young people to astronomy and many of those people are astronomers today because of Carl Sagan.
Read "Dragons of Eden". I can't think why anyone would call that book rubbish if they ever read it.

How could a real scientist do anything but smear Velikovsky?

Read Comet again read Brochas brain again he died without knowing what a comet was made of Juan. You started the thread trashing someone you may not have read or understood. I can say with comfort that Sagan contributed nothing to science.
I wonder how many more people were introduced to science by Velikovsky, even there I bet he's done service to science.
Where is this going anyway? While it may be fun to dig up the dead and drag thier bones arround it has no purpose. If you find modern astrophysics beyond your imagination why is it Velikovskys fault or Sagans for that matter. The big bang and every derivitive is dead in the sky Juan. Comets aren't snowballs and the universe didn't start from nothing.

 

[#juan]

Read Comet again read Brochas brain again he died without knowing what a comet was made of Juan. Seems to me Sagan called Halley's Comet a big, dirty, snowball, which is precisely what it is. You started the thread trashing someone you may not have read or understood. I can say with comfort that Sagan contributed nothing to science.
I wonder how many more people were introduced to science by Velikovsky, even there I bet he's done service to science. I wonder how many people Velikovsky turned off of science because of all his errors.
Where is this going anyway? While it may be fun to dig up the dead and drag thier bones arround it has no purpose. If you find modern astrophysics beyond your imagination why is it Velikovskys fault or Sagans for that matter. The big bang and every derivitive is dead in the sky Juan. Comets aren't snowballs and the universe didn't start from nothing. I think you are wrong there db. I'll stick with the big bang until I see something better.

I think we'll have to agree to disagree darkbeaver. Meanwhile people will be watching this for years to come. YouTube - We Are Here: The Pale Blue Dot

 

[#juan]

Carl Sagan's scientific achievements

Carl Sagan's contributions were central to the discovery of the high surface temperatures of the planet Venus. In the early 1960s no one knew for certain the basic conditions of that planet's surface and Sagan listed the possibilities in a report later depicted for popularization in a Time-Life book, Planets. His own view was that Venus was dry and very hot as opposed to the balmy paradise others had imagined. He had investigated radio emissions from Venus and concluded that there was a surface temperature of 500 °C (932 °F). As a visiting scientist to NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory, he contributed to the first Mariner missions to Venus, working on the design and management of the project. Mariner 2 confirmed his conclusions on the surface conditions of Venus in 1962.

Sagan was among the first to hypothesize that Saturn's moon Titan might possess oceans of liquid compounds on its surface and that Jupiter's moon Europa might possess subsurface oceans of water. This made Europa potentially habitable for life.[7] Europa's subsurface ocean of water was later indirectly confirmed by the spacecraft Galileo. Sagan also helped solve the mystery of the reddish haze seen on Titan, revealing that it is composed of complex organic molecules constantly raining down onto the moon's surface.

He further contributed insights regarding the atmospheres of Venus and Jupiter as well as seasonal changes on Mars. Sagan established that the atmosphere of Venus is extremely hot and dense with pressures increasing steadily all the way down to the surface. He also perceived global warming as a growing, man-made danger and likened it to the natural development of Venus into a hot, life-hostile planet through a kind of runaway greenhouse effect. Sagan and his Cornell colleague Edwin Ernest Salpeter speculated about life in Jupiter's clouds, given the planet's dense atmospheric composition rich in organic molecules. He studied the observed color variations on Mars’ surface and concluded that they were not seasonal or vegetational changes as most believed but shifts in surface dust caused by windstorms.

Sagan is best known, however, for his research on the possibilities of extraterrestrial life, including experimental demonstration of the production of amino acids from basic chemicals by radiation.

He is also the 1994 recipient of the Public Welfare Medal, the highest award of the National Academy of Sciences for "distinguished contributions in the application of science to the public welfare.

 

[Dexter Sinister]

I'v read lots of refutation of Velikovsky. It always struck me how many people delighted in the task, no matter, they'll all be forgotten while a new generation will be a little kinder.

I doubt that. Did you actually read what's at that link? It's by a man who spent a lifetime studying the primary sources of the information Velikovsky used to create his timeline of ancient history. Velikovsky had to use secondary and tertiary sources because he couldn't read the primary sources, things like cuneiform and heiroglyphic scripts, and he got it wrong. It really is that simple: Velikovsky was wrong.

 

[Spade]

Immanuel Velikovsky The Bonds of the Past

 

[Dexter Sinister]

I actually watched that video all the way through. Yes, Velikovsky was right about a few things, usually for the wrong reasons. Venus' high surface temperature, for instance, is not due its recently being molten, it's a runaway greenhouse effect. The fact remains though, that the earth does not show the signs it should if Velikovsky's postulated catastrophes happened. The evidence available from ancient ice cores, tree rings, sedimentology, plate tectonics, and a host of other studies, shows no signs of such massive global disturbances in historical times. They didn't happen. Velikovsky's wrong.

 

[Spade]

I agree.

 

[darkbeaver]

http://plasmascience.net/tpu/downloadsCosmo/PerattTPSv31-2003clr.pdf

Velikovsky dosen't need my defence or for that matter does Sagan. The catyclismic past of the earth is recorded on the rocks and in the histories of it's people and verified in the labs and by the predictions of those scientists engaged in the exploration of the universe.
Resistance to change is a human constant very well studied and very well understood, those who resist the new serve us well nevertheless through thier stubborn adherance to the obsolete they drive the new ideas forward to acceptance. Through thier counterargument they quite literally actualize what they thought to bury, we owe them our gratitude.

They will leave thier bones for posterity and science of the future will wonder at thier simplistic mechanisms.