Radio frequencies help burn salt water

hermanntrude

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Jun 23, 2006
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ERIE, Pa. - An Erie cancer researcher has found a way to burn salt water, a novel invention that is being touted by one chemist as the "most remarkable" water science discovery in a century.

John Kanzius happened upon the discovery accidentally when he tried to desalinate seawater with a radio-frequency generator he developed to treat cancer. He discovered that as long as the salt water was exposed to the radio frequencies, it would burn.

The discovery has scientists excited by the prospect of using salt water, the most abundant resource on earth, as a fuel.

Rustum Roy, a Penn State University chemist, has held demonstrations at his State College lab to confirm his own observations.

The radio frequencies act to weaken the bonds between the elements that make up salt water, releasing the hydrogen, Roy said. Once ignited, the hydrogen will burn as long as it is exposed to the frequencies, he said.

The discovery is "the most remarkable in water science in 100 years," Roy said.

"This is the most abundant element in the world. It is everywhere," Roy said. "Seeing it burn gives me the chills."

Roy will meet this week with officials from the Department of Energy and the Department of Defense to try to obtain research funding.

The scientists want to find out whether the energy output from the burning hydrogen — which reached a heat of more than 3,000 degrees Fahrenheit — would be enough to power a car or other heavy machinery.

"We will get our ideas together and check this out and see where it leads," Roy said. "The potential is huge."
 

karrie

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Jan 6, 2007
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would it be perptual though? After the initial energy required to start the radio frequencies, could it burn and create enough energy to both power the frequency needed, and create extra energy?

We all know from other instances that we can use energy to break stuff down and use it for fuel, but is the energy needed greater than the energy we'd get out of it once it's fuel?
 

#juan

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Aug 30, 2005
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My first question would be "how much energy does the radio frequency generator take compared with the energy to be had by re-burning the hydrogen? An old saying,"There ain't no free lunch", might apply here.
 

karrie

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My first question would be "how much energy does the radio frequency generator take compared with the energy to be had by re-burning the hydrogen? An old saying,"There ain't no free lunch", might apply here.

Ya know juan, rewording my post and putting your name on it isn't a very nice thing to do. :angry3:
 

hermanntrude

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Jun 23, 2006
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would it be perptual though? After the initial energy required to start the radio frequencies, could it burn and create enough energy to both power the frequency needed, and create extra energy?

We all know from other instances that we can use energy to break stuff down and use it for fuel, but is the energy needed greater than the energy we'd get out of it once it's fuel?

it's definitely not perpetual. But it could be useful. Hydrogen contains a fair amount of energy in its bonds. Depending on the radio waves used they could be fairly low in energy. Whether the overall process is endothermic or exothermic, I couldn't guess as yet. It could be interesting to see if this goes anywhere. Hydrogen storage has been a difficulty for some time... it'd be freaky if it turned out that you could "store" it in water.

Of course.... if you remove hydrogen from water you're left with oxygen, which itself is pretty reactive. It could turn out that there's more energy to be had.
 

karrie

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Jan 6, 2007
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I guess I just don't really see how it's much different from being able to run electric current through water to break off and combust the hydrogen. They've been doing demos like that on Daily Planet for ages, yet it hasn't proven itself capable of practical use, and when used to extract and store hydrogen, it ends up being a negative energy source.

How jaded we've become hey?
"Look, I can light water on fire!"
"Ya? So?"
 

#juan

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Ya know juan, rewording my post and putting your name on it isn't a very nice thing to do. :angry3:

With all due respect, your post wasn't there when I wrote mine. You will notice there is four minutes separating our two posts. As a slow one finger typist, I'm not sure I could type that post in four minutes. In any case, I am an engineer and I don't need help defining the laws of thermodynamics.
 

hermanntrude

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Jun 23, 2006
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so the question really is "how much energy is required to produce a mole of hydrogen, and is it more or less energy than would be required to do it by electrolysis?"
 

karrie

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Jan 6, 2007
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With all due respect, your post wasn't there when I wrote mine. You will notice there is four minutes separating our two posts. As a slow one finger typist, I'm not sure I could type that post in four minutes. In any case, I am an engineer and I don't need help defining the laws of thermodynamics.

i was just picking on you juan... don't get too defensive. :-|
 

hermanntrude

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Jun 23, 2006
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Ya know juan, rewording my post and putting your name on it isn't a very nice thing to do. :angry3:

With all due respect, your post wasn't there when I wrote mine. You will notice there is four minutes separating our two posts. As a slow one finger typist, I'm not sure I could type that post in four minutes. In any case, I am an engineer and I don't need help defining the laws of thermodynamics.

i was just picking on you juan... don't get too defensive. :-|


FIGHT! FIGHT! FIGHT!
 

Tonington

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Oct 27, 2006
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Fascinating discovery. I wonder how far up they can scale the experiment, like for generating electricity?
 

#juan

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***Karrie circles the room, glaring down juan as he fumes away. She clenches and unclenches her hands, getting her hands loosened up and ready... to tickle the hell out of him***

The really good thing about being tickled, is that you get to tickle back.......:lol:
 

#juan

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Fascinating discovery. I wonder how far up they can scale the experiment, like for generating electricity?

Has somebody repealed the first law of thermodynamics?

the first law of thermodynamics is a statement of the conservation of energy for thermodynamic systems, and is the more encompassing version of the conservation of energy. In short, the law of conservation of energy states that energy can not be created or destroyed, it can only be changed from one form to another, such as when electrical energy is changed into heat energy.
 

Tonington

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Oct 27, 2006
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As Hermann said, there is alot of energy stored in a hydrogen bond. In this case it is turned into heat I think? I dunno, not my particularly best subject.
 

hermanntrude

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Jun 23, 2006
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and yet the source of energy for the generation of electricity has to come from somewhere. In the burning of coal it comes from the exothermic reactions involved in the combustion of carbon-based fuels. In the case of the burning of salt water, it is possible (although I feel it's unlikely) that the energy could come from the energy stored in the H-O covalent bonds in water. There's a giant supply of water, whereas the supply of electricity has its limits. If electricity can be made from water, it'd get very cheap very quickly
 

hermanntrude

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Jun 23, 2006
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As Hermann said, there is alot of energy stored in a hydrogen bond. In this case it is turned into heat I think? I dunno, not my particularly best subject.

careful with the term "hydrogen bond" it means other things.

If I read it right, though, this discovery means that the covalent bonds between hydrogen and oxygen atoms in water can be rearranged to cause hydrogen molecules (a hydrogen molecule is two hydrogen atoms bound together by a single covalent bond) to be given off, which then burn, releasing the...


ah... hang on... the resultant product of the combustion of hydrogen in air is water. I think that puts the kibosh on it.