Interesting Science

vista

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Time to lighten up!

"It is an establishment that persists is frenetically sweeping legitimate genres of new anomalous phenomena under its intellectual carpet, thereby denying its own well-documented heritage that anomalies are the most precious raw materials from which future science is formed." Robert Jahn, PEAR, Princeton

Rupert Sheldrake: The Sense of Being Stared At

excerpt:

Genetically Programmed

How do plants grow from simple embryos inside seed into foxgloves, or bamboos? How do leaves, flowers and fruits take up their characteristic forms? These questions are about what biologists call morphogenesis, the coming into being of form.

The same problems arise in understanding how fertilized egg cells in animals give rise to fruit flies or elephants. The naive answer is to say that everything is genetically programmed.

Somehow each developing plant or animal follow the instructions coded in its genes. The problem with this theory is that we actually know what genes do: they code for the sequence of building blocks, called amino acids, that make up protein molecules. This is a very different matter from "programming" or instinctive behaviour.

Genes enable cells to make the right proteins at the right times as the organism develops. But how does having the right proteins explain the shape of a flower or the structure of a mouse? No one knows. This is one of the major unsolved problems of biology.

To say the cells, tissues and organs simple assemble themselves automatically is like saying that if all the materials were delivered to a building site at the right times, the building would automatically assemble itself in the right shape as a result of blind physical forces.

Since the 1920s, many biologists who have studied the development of plants and animals have been convinced there must be organizing fields with the developing organism, called morphogenetic fields. These fields not only help explain normal development but also regeneration. If you cut a flatworm into pieces, each piece can regenerate to form an entire new organism. (If you cut a magnet up into parts, each part is a complete magnet with a complete magnetic field.)

The trouble is that no one knows exactly what morphogenetic fields are or how they work.

Morphogenetic fields not only shape cells, tissues, organs and living organisms but also work at the molecular level. For example, the morphogenetic fields of protein molecules shape the way that chains of amino acids fold up in the right way to give the proteins their characteristic form. Genes specify the sequence in which amino acids are strung together, but they do not determine how these chains of amino acids fold up. A given chain could potentially fold up into an astronomical number of different forms.

A typical chain of 100 amino acids has trillions of possible three-dimensional forms. If it folded up by "exploring" these at random until it found the most energetically stable form, it could take longer than the entire age of the universe to do so. (the Levinthal paradox, after molecular biologist Cyrus Levinthal.)

In fact, the folding process may take only a few seconds or at most a matter of minutes. Worse still, proteins do not have only a single possible form with a minimum energy; many alternative minimum-energy forms are possible, according to calculations. In the literature on proteins folding, this is called the "multiple minimum problem." Despite thirty-five years of intensive research, the folding of proteins is still one of the major unsolved problems in molecular biology.

Morphogenetic fields are part of [as Sheldrake puts forth] a larger class of fields, called morphic fields, all of which contain inherent memory given by morphic resonance. Other kinds of morphic fields include the behavioural fields that underlie the behaviour and instincts of animals.

[the explanation that my cats do 'that' out of instinct explains nothing]

Morphic fields also underlie our perceptions, thoughts and other mental processes. The morphic fields of mental activities are called mental fields.

Sensory communication by itself would be totally inadequate to explain how termites could build such prodigious structures, with nests up to ten feet high, filled with galleries and chambers and even equipped with ventilation shafts. These insect cities have an overall plan that far exceeds the experience of any individual insect. There is already evidence that co-ordination of the insects' activities depends on field-like influences that cannot be explained in terms of the normal senses.


The Astonishing Hypothesis

Look around now. Are the images of what you see inside your brain? Or are they outside - just where they seem to be?
The inward movement of light is familiar enough. As you look at this book, reflected light moves from the book through the electromagnetic field into your eyes. The lenses of your eyes focus the light and form upside-down images on your retinas.

The light falling on your retinal cone and rod cells causes electrical changes within them, and these trigger changes in the nerves that connect the cells to the brain. Nerve impulses move up your optic nerves and into the brain, where they give rise to complex patterns of electrical and chemical activity.

So far, so good. All these processes can be, and have been, studied in great detail by neurophysiologists and other experts on vision and brain activity.

Then something very mysterious happens. You consciously experience what you are seeing, the pages of this book. You also become conscious of the printed words and their meanings. From the point of view of the standard theory, there is no reason why you should be conscious at all. Brain mechanisms ought to go on just as well, without consciousness.

Then comes a further problem. When you see this book, you do not experience your image of it as being inside your brain, where it is supposed to be. Instead, you experience the image of the book as being located about two feet in front of you, where the book itself is.

Your image of this book is just where it seems to be, in front of your eyes, not behind your eyes. It is not inside your brain. Your mind is projecting it outward to where it seems to be.
...
The identity theory says that mental activity is nothing but the subjective experience of brain activity. Francis Crick, a Nobel laureate and one of the found fathers of molecular biology [the DNA double helix], has called this the Astonishing Hypothesis: 'You, your joys and your sorrows, your memories and your ambitions, your sense of personal identity and free will, are in fact no more than the behaviour of a vast assembly of nerve cells and their associated molecules. This hypothesis is so alien to the ideas of most people alive today that it can truly be called astonishing.'

It makes nonsense of our social and legal systems, which hold that sane adults are responsible for their actions. In practice, people cannot be treated as mere automata with no choice or free will, nor do most people really think of themselves as choiceless mechanisms. From religious, legal, social, and personal points of view, we are not merely the automatic activity of vast assemblies of nerve cells and their associated molecules.
 

peapod

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That really lightened me up vista :) But this is what I cannot figure out, if a brain weighs 1-3kgs (so says encrata) and its nothing but a mass of pink and grey jelly like tissue, how come it can think? what up with thinking meat?
 

Reverend Blair

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Well Vista, what can Isay? Veeerrrry interesting.

As a strong supporter of Darwin's theory I wonder about this kind of thing all the time. "How the hell did we get here?"
 

peapod

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Rev,
There is a book called Mr. darwin's shooter. You might enjoy it, based on syms covington darwins shipboard assistant and later his house servant. He collected and preserved all the specimens, and according to the book was the first to grasp the seeds of Darwins theory of natural slection, for which he was never acknowledged.
 

Reverend Blair

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I'll check that out.

You (not just Peapod, but YOU!)need to read something called Darwin's Radio. A little bit of S/F by Greg Bear. There is much truth in fiction and ole Greg really nailed it with that book.
 

vista

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Peapod, you ask how can we think. This would bring us to the topic the skeptics scoff at ...

What is death? Where is consciousness? Can science find the soul?

"In the summer of 1991, Pam Reynolds learned she had a life-threatening bulge in an artery in her brain. Neurosurgeon Robert Spetzler, director of the Barrow Neurological Institute in Phoenix, told the 35-year-old Atlanta mother of three that in order to operate, he would have to stop her heart. During that time, her brain function would cease. By all clinical measures, she would be dead for up to an hour.

While under anaesthetic... Her limbs were restrained. Her eyes were lubricated and then taped shut. From a vantage point just above Spetzler’s shoulders, she looked down on the operation. She “saw” Spetzler holding something that resembled an electric toothbrush.

That cant’ be right, she thought. This is brain surgery. Reynolds then assumed that whatever they were doing inside her skull had triggered a hallucination. British researcher, Pim van Lommel comments: “You can compare the brain to a TV set. The TV program is not in your TV set.”

So where is consciousness? Is it in every cell of the body? “I think so,” says Lommel.

The NDE may force us to re-examine questions we thought we had the answers to: What is death? Where is consciousness? Can science find the soul?"

Neurophysiologist Wilder Graves Penfield (Canadian of course) in his book The Mystery of the Mind wrote, "For myself, after a professional lifetime spent i trying to discover how the brain accounts for the mind, it comes as a surprise now to discover, during this final examination of the evidence, that the dualist hypothesis seems the more reasonable of the two possible explanations. Mind comes into action and goes out of action with the highest brain-mechanism, it is true. But the mind has energy. The form of that energy is different from that of neuronal potentials that travel the axone pathways. There I must leave it."

He is certainly not the first scientist to wonder of something "greater" that us may exist. Many ground-breaking scientists from Boyle to Alfred Russel Wallace (discoverer of the flawed Darwin theory - let's stir the pot) to Prime Minister Gladstone, Lord Tennyson, Crick to Einstein et. all have wondered alound as well.
 

peapod

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Vista,
Have you ever read steven pinter? I read how the mind works. I enjoyed reading your post.

From the jacket:

In this extraordinary book, Steven Pinker, one of the world's leading cognitive scientists, does for the rest of the mind what he did for language in his 1994 bestseller The Language Instinct. He explains what the mind is, how it evolved, and how it allows us to see, think, feel, laugh, interact, enjoy the arts, and ponder the mysteries of life. And he does it with the wit, clarity, and verve that earned The Language Instinct, worldwide critical acclaim and awards from major scientific societies.

Pinker explains the mind by "reverse-engineering" it -- figuring out what natural selection designed it to accomplish in the environment in which we evolved. The mind, he writes, is a system of "organs of computation" that allowed our ancestors to understand and outsmart objects, animals, plants, and each other.

How the Mind Works explains many of the imponderables of everyday life. Why does a face look more attractive with makeup? How do "Magic-Eye" 3-D stereograms work? Why do we feel that a run of heads makes the coin more likely to land tails? Why is the thought of eating worms disgusting? Why do men challenge each other to duels and murder their ex-wives? Why are children bratty? Why do fools fall in love? Why are we soothed by paintings and music? And why do puzzles like the self, free will, and consciousness leave us dizzy?

This arguments in the book are as bold as its title. Pinker rehabilitates unfashionable ideas, such as that the mind is a computer and that human nature was shaped by natural selection. And he challenges fashionable ones, such as that passionate emotions are irrational, that parents socialize their children, that creativity springs from the unconscious, that nature is good and modern society corrupting, and that art and religion are expressions of our higher spiritual yearnings.

How the Mind Works presents a big picture, but it is not a personal musing; it is a grand synthesis of the most satisfying explanations of our mental life that have been proposed in cognitive science and evolutionary biology, with insights from disciplines ranging from neuroscience to economics and social psychology. It is also fascinating, provocative, and thoroughly entertaining.

Steven Pinker is Professor of Psychology and Director of the Center for Cognitive Neuroscience at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology. He was educated at McGill and Harvard, and taught at Harvard and Stanford before moving to MIT. He has won numerous awards for his research, teaching, and books on visual cognition and language, and has written provocative articles for Time, The New Republic, the The New York Times.

"This is the best book ever written on the human mind. Here Darwin meets Turing -- the theories of evolution and computation -- and Steven Pinker effects the introduction with penetrating clarity, superb writing, and delicious wit. The science is authoritative, the style accessible, and the range astonishing. Reading this book and learning about the mind of our species, I was proud to be an owner of both."
--Helena Cronin, Director, Center for the Philosophy of the Social Sciences, London School of Economics, and author of The Ant and the Peacock.

Mr. Pinter is a canadian, born in montreal, attended mcgill university. 8)
 

vista

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Peapod, no I haven't read anything from him but I made a note of his book. Gotta' love those Canadians!

Skeptics claim there is no mind - it's just our brains neurons firing away. There is something there - just something science cannot empirically prove.

And those questions and such. The only way to ponder them well... can our BC members send me some of their finest? :wink:

Where I differ is on the issue of Darwin evolution of who and what we are. I don't believe in the creationist story either but Darwin is 19th century conjecture. Nothing more that his observations with no science behind it.

Since Darwin, all sciences have exploded with fantastic breakthroughs of thought and knowledge yet, again the skeptic community will not revisit Darwin.

I was so frustrated with a skeptic friend of mine - he wouldn't take the time to investigate - I wrote out a thorough excerpt of Shattering the Myths of Darwinism by Richard Milton. It did the trick, "perhaps the Theory of Evolution isn't so firm and factual after all."

What is the answer? No clue.

http://www.newsgateway.ca/darwin.htm

21 pages but a worthwhile read...

"The fossil record should be littered with the bodies of one-shot macromutations that did not work. For every macromutation like the hypothetical bird, there would be million of one-legged crocodiles and aardvarks with wings [there are no transitory species in the fossil record] nature would have to have had a 100 percent success record."

"The concept of “convergence” is one of the greatest weaknesses in the theory. The weakness has to do with the geological events referred to previously, the break-up of the original supercontinent of Pangaea in to the present-day land masses, thus separating the plant and animal populations of those continents and allowing them to evolve in isolation.

Practically all the mammals that have appeared are either placental (bearing young until fully developed, like humans) or marsupial (giving birth prematurely and nurturing the young in a pouch, like kangaroos). The marsupial mammals are confined to Australia and South America, and are said to have evolved uniquely in those environments, while at the same time placental mammals were evolving elsewhere.

The key factor about the evolution of the marsupials is that a large number of modern marsupial animals exist which - apart from the pouch and child-rearing habits - are identical with placental mammals to an extraordinary degree. Almost perfect duplication of distinctive species like cats, rats, wolves, moles, flying squirrels, anteaters and others.

How can a mouselike creature have evolved into two identical wolflike creatures, (moles etc.) on two different continents? Doesn’t this coincident demand not merely highly improbable random mutations but miraculous ones?

Convergence. The stupendous inadequacy of the explanation, and the almost casual way in which Darwinists have batted aside the marsupial problem is, I think, a symptom of their uneasiness over the issue. The response reveals the theory’s inability to explain a key real-life biological problem.

But more than this, the existence of identical evolutionary outcomes in isolated environments is the strongest possible indication that random mutation and natural selection are incapable of explaining the origin of species."
 

peapod

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Vista,
This stuff makes my brain hurt, but I will give it a try..Like the reverend I lean toward Darwins theory. But theories can change when new information is learned.

The book I read before darwins was a little book called the crayfish, by T.H. huxley, stumped upon it at a book sale. In my opinion a brillant little book. He showed how you can teach the principals of science, by developing the details of a single crayfish. He shows the common sense of science and the three stages that science follows. Along the way I learned a little about linnaeus, I don't think there would have been a darwins work with linnaeus.

Most of all I loved darwins metaphors and Stephen Gould who has a book called dinosaur in a haystack,(reflections in natural history) talks alot about these metaphors. Hold on I will get his book and list them for you. They really are brillant. Here are the four that made the impression on me. Superficial appearances and deeper realities of nature

We behold the face of nature bright with gladness, we often see
superabundance of food: we do see, or we forget, that the birds which are idly singing round us mostly live on insects or seeds, and are thus constantly destroying life; or we forget how largely these songsters, or their eggs, or their nestlings; are destroyed by birds and beasts of prey.

The driving force of competition in a crowded world

In looking at nature, it is most necessary...never to forget every single organic being around us may be said to be striving to the utmost to increase numbers; that each lives by a struggle at some period of its life; the heavy destruction inevitably falls on either the young or the old, during each generation....The face of nature may be compared to a yielding surface, with then thousand sharp wedges packed close together and driven inwards by
incessant blows, sometimes one wedge being struck, and then another with greater force.

The tree of life

The affinities of all beings of the same class have sometimes been
represented as a great tree. I believe this simple largely speaks the
truth. The green and budding twigs may re-present existing species; and those produced during each former year may represent the long succession of extinct species. At each period of growth all the growing twigs have tried to branch out on all sides, and to overtop and kill the surrounding twigs and branches, in the same manner as species and groups of species have tried
to overmaster other species in the great battle for life. The limbs divided into great branches, and these into lesser and lesser branches, were themselves once, when the tree was small, budding twigs, and this connection of the former and present buds by ramifying branches may well represent the
classification of all extinct and living species in groups subordinate to groups.

Darwins central argument is based on analogy not direct evidence
As man can produce and certainly has produced a great result with his methodical and unconscious means of selection , what may not nature effect? Man can only act on external and visible characters; nature cares nothing for appearances....She can act on every internal organ, on every shade of constitutional difference, on the whole machinery of life. How fleeting are the wishes and efforts of man! how short his time! and consequently how poor
will his products be, compared with those accumulated by nature during whole geological periods.

Linnaeus coined homo sapiens...a thinking machine, I prefer the botanical metaphor thinking reed... yes vista this can really stir the pot! Hey that was funny...I am listening to lonely planet cd, there is a song called maroc dance, Ian comes on and says "you sell hashish?, you hashish farmers? your hashish is it good? ahah....I love that show and Ian...Try the book out vista Dinosaur in a haystack, reflections in natural history by stephen jay gould.

PS: When I am out fishng, or skimming across a piece of water with my kayak, nature whispers to me, that everything darwin said is true, I can't prove it, but I can feel it. When you live in a liquid luxurious piece of the planet, everything in nature is liquid, everything is connected, I can follow the dots..by the way don't mention any of this to my mother...she figures she taught me better....now I gotta have something to eat!!!
 

vista

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Peapod, yes I have some of Stephen Gould around the house. In one of his essays he comments how interesting it is that animals seem to produce almost a perfect 50/50 male/female ratio. The perfect equilibrium.

Fascinating.

There is something going on here, bigger than you or I.

As with 'evolution', there are too many holes in the theory but something is happening.

A program is being executed.

Something...
 

peapod

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Yes Vista I really like Stephen Gould essays. He writes so that anyone can understand him. You have picked an interesting topic. Have you read any Oliver Sacks?
 

peapod

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Vista, I heard this guy on the CBC show the current. he was so interesting I bought the guys book. I have not read it yet. You might find it interesting also. Here is a little about the book.

'Mind Wide Open': This Is Your Brain
By JONATHAN WEINER
MIND WIDE OPEN
Your Brain and the Neuroscience of Everyday Life.
By Steven Johnson.

n Page 1 of ''Mind Wide Open,'' Steven Johnson quotes Franz Kafka: ''How pathetically scanty my self-knowledge is compared with, say, my knowledge of my room. . . . There is no such thing as observation of the inner world, as there is of the outer world.''

On the facing page, Johnson shows us an image of his own brain, as seen in an M.R.I. scan.

Until recently, introspective people could lie on a couch and free-associate, or sit at a desk and write ''The Metamorphosis.'' People couldn't look into themselves directly to explore what Gerard Manley Hopkins called, wistfully, our ''inscapes.'' But now we can. With M.R.I.'s, PET scans and many other high-tech mirrors that neuroscientists are holding up in front of us, we can see right through our own foreheads and begin to watch our mental apparatus in action.

In ''Mind Wide Open,'' Johnson makes himself his own test subject to see what the neuroscientists can show us about our attention spans, talents, moods, thoughts and drives -- our selves. He got the idea for this voyage of self-discovery a few years ago while he was hooked up to a biofeedback machine. Lying on a couch with sensors attached to his palms, fingertips and forehead made him feel nervous, and he started cracking jokes with the biofeedback guy. The machine was designed to monitor adrenaline levels, like a lie detector. With each joke he made, the monitor displayed a huge spike of adrenaline: ''I found myself wondering how many of these little chemical subroutines are running in my brain on any given day? At any given moment? And what would it tell me about myself if I could see them, the way I could see those adrenaline spikes on the printout?''

Johnson writes the monthly Emerging Technology column for Discover magazine, and is a contributing editor at Wired. He knows how to make complicated science clear and easy to follow, and his style is cheerful, honest, friendly, self-deprecating -- and laced with those nervous jokes. He also knows how to find what he calls ''long-decay ideas,'' ideas that will stay with us a long time before the last traces vanish from our minds. In his last book, ''Emergence,'' he explored the ways in which the complicated behavior of brains, software, cities and ant heaps can emerge from the vastly simpler behavior of their smallest working parts -- from collections of nerve cells, bits and bytes, citizens and ants. Here he writes about some of the ways that the behavior of what we like to call our selves emerges moment by moment from all kinds of separate tools and workshops in the brain, which neuroscientists call modules.

Johnson begins with a gift that most of us take for granted: mind reading. Even before we can talk, almost all of us know how to read subtle hints in the faces, voices and gestures of the people who hover around our cribs. That is, we can do by instinct what neuroscientists are just learning to do with scanners and monitors. Normally we're aware of this gift only when we meet people who don't have it -- those who are severely or partly autistic and may be more or less mind-blind.

To learn about his own mindreading abilities, Johnson takes a famous test devised by the British psychologist Simon Baron-Cohen. In the test, you are shown a series of 36 different pairs of eyes on a computer screen. Each pair has a distinctive expression. For each, you have to choose one adjective from a set of four that Baron-Cohen provides. Multiple choice: is this pair of eyes despondent, preoccupied, cautious or regretful? Johnson finds that he has an instant gut reaction to each pair of eyes. But when he looks harder, he feels less and less sure what he sees. (''I am going to flunk this test,'' he writes. He decides to go with his hunches and gets an A.)

Our innate ability to read people's faces is outside conscious thought. As with breathing or swallowing, we can't explain how we do it. Baron-Cohen and others believe that the skill depends partly on the amygdala, one of the brain's emotional centers. He has made brain scans of people taking his reading-the-eyes test using functional M.R.I., which reveals which parts of the brain are working hardest from moment to moment. When most people try to decode the emotion in a pair of eyes, their amygdalae light up. When autistic patients do it, their amygdalae are much dimmer.

In other chapters, Johnson explores some of the fear messages that are controlled by his amygdala: traumatic fears that were triggered by a near catastrophe when a storm blew in the picture window of his apartment above the Hudson River. He explores our brain chemistry, describing some of the natural drugs with which we dose ourselves without knowing it: adrenaline, oxytocin, serotonin, dopamine, cortisol. He learns how to recognize which natural high he is riding, or which bad trip he is enduring, hour by hour, along with some useful lessons about the ways our brains' drugs affect our memories. There's also a chapter about his sojourn in a $2 million functional M.R.I. machine, in which he reads a passage by the Nobel Prize-winning neuroscientist Eric Kandel, and then a passage of his own. The test proves that nothing makes a writer's brain light up like reading his own words.

Johnson's preoccupations, the weather systems of his own inner life, keep cycling back chapter after chapter: his horror when that window blew in and almost killed his wife; his moments of tenderness gazing at their sleeping newborn son. As he explores his inner world and the mental modules that help to shape it, we begin to feel that we are right in there with him -- and we have a new sense of what it means to be human.

The best chapter is the last, when Johnson takes stock of the current view of the mind. It is obvious now that Freud's most basic insight was correct -- there is more going on in there than we are aware of. There is much more going on than even Freud guessed, with his simple schematics of ego, superego, id. This is not new news, but Johnson brings it all alive. He concludes, ''Even the sanest among us have so many voices in our heads, all of them competing for attention, that it's a miracle we ever get anything done.''

This is an entertaining and instructive ride inward to a place that looks less familiar the better we get to know it. As Johnson says, ''It's a jungle in there.'' ''If a lion could talk we would not understand him,'' Wittgenstein said. ''Mind Wide Open'' takes the point closer to home. If every part of our brain could talk, we would not understand ourselves
 

vista

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Peapod. Yes all very interesting stuff. As far as the mind-reading goes, Sheldrake addresses these issues in The Sense of Being Stared At. How dogs know when their owners are coming home. Phantom limbs. Anticpating a call from someone - I knew you where going to call.

Various experiments performed to the scientific method. The skeptics don't like that.

Further, this maybe of interest. Candace Pert...

There's a saying that goes, "If you're not on the edge, you're taking up too much room." By that standard, neuroscientist Candace Pert has occupied minimal space during her 26-year career. But in reality, Pert's presence has loomed large in the scientific community. The iconoclastic researcher has a knack for stirring up controversy. One minute she's making jaw-dropping pronouncements such as "Science, at its core, is a spiritual endeavor."

The next, she's declaring that the body and the mind are actually part of a linked system she calls the bodymind. Pert is best known for her pivotal role in the discovery of opiate receptors-molecules that unlock cells in the brain so that morphine and other opiates, including the body's natural opiate, endorphins, can enter.

But it's her continuing research into the biochemical substances called neuropeptides that have placed her at odds with conventional scientific thinking about illness and healing. After years of studying the form and function of neuropeptides (tiny bits of protein that consist of strings of amino acids), Pert has concluded that they are responsible for our emotions -- not only the familiar feelings of anger, fear, sadness, joy, contentment, and courage, but also spiritual inspiration, awe, bliss, and other states of consciousness that scientists have never physiologically explained.

Scientists have found neuropeptide receptors throughout the nervous system, and Pert's research has shown that the immune system also produces its own. She has come to believe that the brain and the nervous, endocrine, and immune systems are interlocked in a "psychoimmunoendocrine" network that serves as a multidirectional, body-wide system in which every part communicates with every other part.

This concept nullifies the prevailing idea that the mind has power over the body. "Instead, emotions are the nexus between mind and matter, going back and forth between the two and influencing both," says Pert.

Neuropeptides, Emotion and the BodyMind

The article is too long to post...

http://www.newsgateway.ca/Candace_Pert.htm
 

Reverend Blair

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I think I really suck at figuring emotions by looking at people's eyes...I only scored 19.

Back to Darwin though. What he wrote has been changed and adapted over the years. Details filled in, errors corrected, ets. That will continue. Darwin was right at the base though...nothing has contradicted the basic theory. Things become other things over time.

We have found plenty of failed species too...just looking at hominids, there are many examples (that we know of) of species that went extinct. They were not successful.

Do we find the one-legged, four-eyed aborted fetus? No. That one got eaten before it could procreate. The chances of finding a one-off, an unsuccessful freak, are incredibly tiny. It is doubtful that they would have reached maturity in a harsh, primitive world and becoming a fossil is a matter of chance.

We have no physical proof of the aquatic ape theory either, and many (most) evolutionists don't believe it as a result, but the circumstantial evidence...hair growth, fat distribution, etc makes it a real possibility.

None of that automatically negate things like near death experiences, ESP, etc. There is no reason why those things could not have evolved, we just haven't found ways to prove or disprove, explain, quantify, and reliably describe them.

There is a program at work though, Vista. It's our DNA. It will continue to try new things and, if those things are successful, pass them on.

Again I suggest reading Darwin's Radio. It deals with a rather bizarre mutation and recessive (junk) genes and so on. It also has an all too real take on the likely reaction to such a mutation in the modern (and not so modern) world.
 

peapod

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Trying to stir the pot eh rev :lol: Have you read william hamilton, Kin slection? For me darwins theory is complicated, but the concept is simple and almost elgent in a way. He is coming from a natural world, where everything is related and connected in time. Life comes from itself....and that life is all bound up in one evolutionary process....Darwin gave music to time and order..his theory is very spiritual to me....just my opinion only 8) Who says science does not have its own theology :D
 

vista

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Reverend, yes there is a good example of a failed species - homo sapiens. :wink:

Really, read the excerpt of Milton's book - all the areas are covered off.

Every other disipline of science has progressed immeasurable with advances of thought and techniques. When looking at evolution through the eyes of 21st century science, the antiquated19th century idea doesn't stand up.

Milton:
In the baffling new world of modern physics, scientists find themselves observing and examining a cosmos that has become less and less like a clockwork machine and more like an intelligence.

Whether the intelligence is that of ourselves, the observers, or that of the world we examine is not yet clear and perhaps may never become clear. But it would surely be absurd to bestow intelligent characteristics upon the behaviour of nuclear particles yet fail to accord such characteristics to living structures.

Thomas Huxley, Darwin’s champion, observed that the great tragedy of science is the slaying of a beautiful idea by an ugly fact.

Darwin’s original conception was a beautiful idea. It seemed to offer an elegantly economical solution to the greatest mystery of all: the origin of life on Earth and the descent of humankind. Sadly, it has received too many mortal blows from the ugly facts of scientific enquiry to remain viable.

It is a strange aspect of science in the twentieth century that while physics has had to submit to the indignity of a principle of uncertainty and physicists have become accustomed to such strange entities as matter-waves and virtual particles, many of their colleagues down the corridor in biology seem not to have noticed the revolution of quantum electrodynamics. As far as many biologists are concerned, matter is made of billiard balls which collide with Newtonian certainty, and they carry on building
molecular models out of coloured ping-pong balls.

One of the twentieth century's most distinguished scientists and Nobel laureates, physicist Max Planck, observed that; 'A new scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents and making them see the light, but rather because its opponents eventually die, and a new generation grows up that is familiar with it.'

It may be another decade or more before such a new generation grows up and restores intellectual rigour to the study of evolutionary biology.