Only French speaking persons permitted to sponsor family class immigrants in Quebec


no color
Avatar
#1
Not sure how many of you folks in the rest of Canada know about the laws here in Quebec allowing for discrimination based on language. Well, there are "recent" new laws which amount to a clear violation of civil rights.

French speaking persons living in Quebec can sponsor a close family member, while English speaking persons no longer can.

Several years ago, my Husband was able to sponsor me, an American citizen to move to Canada (Quebec). Like myself, my husband is an English speaking person, who was educated in English in his home town of Montreal, where we both now live.

We were recently looking at sponsoring another close family member, however although we qualify and will easily get approved by Immigration Canada, we cannot complete the sponsorship as the Quebec forms now need to be filled out in French. I am an American, and my husband was educated in English in Montreal, so neither of us are capable of filling out the forms in French. This law was not around 9-10 years ago as my husband did not have to fill out any French forms in order to legally sponsor me to move to Montreal, otherwise we would not be here.

My question is, why have English schools and universities in Montreal if you are going to deny civil rights to citizens who are part of the English speaking community?

We are now seriously thinking of moving to the US as I will be able to sponsor my husband and where we know our civil rights will be respected.
 
tracy
#2
I don't understand. Are they only allowing French speakers to sponsor, or are they just requiring the forms be completed in French?
 
no color
Avatar
#3
Quote: Originally Posted by tracyView Post

I don't understand. Are they only allowing French speakers to sponsor, or are they just requiring the forms be completed in French?

They are requiring the forms to be completed in French. This is a major stumbling block for us as neither me nor my husband have any proficiency in French, we are therefore excluded in the process and cannnot sponsor our family member.
 
Said1
#4
Quote: Originally Posted by no colorView Post

They are requiring the forms to be completed in French. This is a major stumbling block for us as neither me nor my husband have any proficiency in French, we are therefore excluded in the process and cannnot sponsor our family member.

Can't you get someone to help you?
 
tracy
#5
You can't just hire an interpreter? There are plenty of bilingual people in the province who could help you. I had to do that to get my living permit in the Czech republic. I guarantee you, it was a lot harder to find an English- Czech speaker in BC than it would be to find an English-French speaker in Quebec
 
tracy
#6
Better yet: why not hire an attorney who is billingual to represent you in your immigration matters?

I realize dealing with immigration is a pain in the butt. I'm the other side of the fence (a Canadian living in the US). I get treated very poorly fairly often by US immigration authorities. All I can do is suck it up and fulfill whatever ridiculous new requirement they come up with. I definitely understand your frustration, but I choose to just get over it and do what I need to do to stay. If it becomes too much I may move home like you are considering, but for now I'll suck it up.
 
Machjo
Avatar
#7
Quote: Originally Posted by no colorView Post

Not sure how many of you folks in the rest of Canada know about the laws here in Quebec allowing for discrimination based on language. Well, there are "recent" new laws which amount to a clear violation of civil rights.
French speaking persons living in Quebec can sponsor a close family member, while English speaking persons no longer can.
Several years ago, my Husband was able to sponsor me, an American citizen to move to Canada (Quebec). Like myself, my husband is an English speaking person, who was educated in English in his home town of Montreal, where we both now live.
We were recently looking at sponsoring another close family member, however although we qualify and will easily get approved by Immigration Canada, we cannot complete the sponsorship as the Quebec forms now need to be filled out in French. I am an American, and my husband was educated in English in Montreal, so neither of us are capable of filling out the forms in French. This law was not around 9-10 years ago as my husband did not have to fill out any French forms in order to legally sponsor me to move to Montreal, otherwise we would not be here.
My question is, why have English schools and universities in Montreal if you are going to deny civil rights to citizens who are part of the English speaking community?

Quote has been trimmed, See full post: View Post
I'm a Franco-Ontarian, so I'll take my own province as an example of where I stand on this, and essentially believe in a parallel policy for Quebec with regards to French.

Personally, I'm in favour of but one official language of government administration for reasons of efficiency. That being the case, even though I'm a French Canadian living in Ontario, I oppose official bilingualism. As far as I'm concerned, the Ontario government should operate in English only. Of course I believe in individual bilingualism as part of a well-rounded education, but even then I'd define individual bilingualism to mean knowledge of the official language plus an additional language of each individual school's choosing. In other words, I believe that English ought to be compulsory as either the language of instruction or the second language of the school, as per the school's decision, as long as the school can guarantee that all students will learn English well. I also believe that this should apply to all migrants (including from other parts of Canada) to Ontario. If you want to relocate to Ontario, learn English first.

Having said that, however, I believe that Ontario does have a responsibility towards those whom it has accepted already, so any such policy should not be retroactive, but merely take effect as of now. In other words, those French-speaking adult Ontarians who don't know English should still be provided with services in French at least in their own local communities. After all, it's the province that has failed to educate them properly in English, it's the province that has failed them. That being the case, the province now has a responsibility towards them while ensuring the same mistake is not repeated with their children.

I would say a parallel policy should apply to Quebec.

This being the case, it would be somewhat hypocritical of me to then support official bilingualism in Quebec. Having said that, however, I would also argue that while the province of Quebec has a duty to ensure that all of its youth learn Frech well, either as a first or second language, and has a right to refuse migrants to Quebec who don't know French, I also believe that, like Ontario with its monolingual French speakers, the Wuebec schools have failed their monolingual adult English speakers, and that being the case, Quebec now has a responsibility to provide them with services in English, and that includes immigrants it has already accepted, while ensuring it doesn't repeat the same mistake with its next generation.

What you might not realise is that official bilingualism is estimated to cost Canada 16 billion Canadian dollars per year. A regional model whereby each local community would have but one official language would certainly restrict mobility for those who don't know both English and French, but would also save money. Essentially it would be a trade off.
 
Machjo
Avatar
#8
Quote: Originally Posted by tracyView Post

I don't understand. Are they only allowing French speakers to sponsor, or are they just requiring the forms be completed in French?

They're just requiring the forms be filled out in French. Her English just wasn't clear on that one
 
Machjo
Avatar
#9
Quote: Originally Posted by no colorView Post

They are requiring the forms to be completed in French. This is a major stumbling block for us as neither me nor my husband have any proficiency in French, we are therefore excluded in the process and cannnot sponsor our family member.

As far as I'm concerned, the Quebec public school system had a duty to make sure your husband learnt French well, and Quebec immigration had a duty to make sure you knew it well too. In both cases the government failed. As such, having failed you both, the government now has a moral duty to provide you with forms in English while ensuring not to make the same mistake with your children, ensuring that at least their learn English well so as to not fall into the same mess you have.
 
Machjo
Avatar
#10
Quote: Originally Posted by Said1View Post

Can't you get someone to help you?

Seeing that the government failed to teach them the official language well and to compensate by providing them with forms in English, the government should thus provide them with the help needed.
 
tracy
#11
Quote: Originally Posted by MachjoView Post

Seeing that the government failed to teach them the official language well and to compensate by providing them with forms in English, the government should thus provide them with the help needed.

If there is one thing dealing with immigraton has taught me, it's that "should" doesn't matter
 
Tyr
Avatar
#12
Quote: Originally Posted by no colorView Post

Not sure how many of you folks in the rest of Canada know about the laws here in Quebec allowing for discrimination based on language. Well, there are "recent" new laws which amount to a clear violation of civil rights.
French speaking persons living in Quebec can sponsor a close family member, while English speaking persons no longer can.
Several years ago, my Husband was able to sponsor me, an American citizen to move to Canada (Quebec). Like myself, my husband is an English speaking person, who was educated in English in his home town of Montreal, where we both now live.
We were recently looking at sponsoring another close family member, however although we qualify and will easily get approved by Immigration Canada, we cannot complete the sponsorship as the Quebec forms now need to be filled out in French. I am an American, and my husband was educated in English in Montreal, so neither of us are capable of filling out the forms in French. This law was not around 9-10 years ago as my husband did not have to fill out any French forms in order to legally sponsor me to move to Montreal, otherwise we would not be here.
My question is, why have English schools and universities in Montreal if you are going to deny civil rights to citizens who are part of the English speaking community?

Quote has been trimmed, See full post: View Post
Discrimination has always been the basis of most quebec laws including education and employment. Sponsorship should come as no surprise
 
Machjo
Avatar
#13
Quote: Originally Posted by tracyView Post

Better yet: why not hire an attorney who is billingual to represent you in your immigration matters?

I realize dealing with immigration is a pain in the butt. I'm the other side of the fence (a Canadian living in the US). I get treated very poorly fairly often by US immigration authorities. All I can do is suck it up and fulfill whatever ridiculous new requirement they come up with. I definitely understand your frustration, but I choose to just get over it and do what I need to do to stay. If it becomes too much I may move home like you are considering, but for now I'll suck it up.

This is something I fully agree with. Though a Canadian myself, I'd had to deal with immigration matters for my ex-wife before, and the buraucracy was ridiculous.

In my opinion, immigration should be straightforward. If you know the official language of the local community you're moving to, have no outstanding criminal charges against you, and can prove yor ability to find a job locally, you get in no questions asked. if not, you don't even get to set foot on Canadian soil.

I believe the way it ought to be is for the government to be really bad-ass tough with you before you set foot on Canadian soil, but once you make it to Canadian soil, you should be treated like any other Canadian. Right now, it seems to be the opposite. It's easy to get to Canada, and then hell begins and gets dragged on. In my opinion, that's not fair. I wouldn't even expect cattle to be treated like that, let alone human beings.
 
Machjo
Avatar
#14
Quote: Originally Posted by tracyView Post

If there is one thing dealing with immigraton has taught me, it's that "should" doesn't matter

I fully agree. I've dealt with immigration before, too, and it's always been either corrupt or incompetent.

What I wouldn't mind seeing would be some kind of 'tough first, kind later' movement promnoting a tough approach to getting into Canada, but a kinder approach once you're in. This would give immigrants peace of mind in that though they would know that once they go to the Canadian embassy in their country the embassy will drag them through hell to make sure they meet all of the highest qualifications, they would also know that once they set foot on Canadian soil, the hell will be defenitely over and it should be smooth sailing from there, like touching base in baseball. Once in Canada, the government should just back off.

And to avoid corruption, It should be based on an objective testing system. You take the language test, present a police report, prove that you've got a guaranteed job offer already or that your spouse does, and you're in. A tough approach, but fair, objective, sensical, and ensures no more problems once you touch base. This way, fewer people would come to Canada, but fewer would leave too.
 
Machjo
Avatar
#15
Quote: Originally Posted by TyrView Post

Discrimination has always been the basis of most quebec laws including education and employment. Sponsorship should come as no surprise

I was dealing with immigration in British columbia. My ex was black, and the stories of racism that I'd heard were sickening. So it's not just Quebec. It's everywhere. It'
s part of the scourge of nationalism. If you're not a citizen, you're sub-human as far as they're concerned.
 
no color
Avatar
#16
Quote: Originally Posted by tracyView Post

Better yet: why not hire an attorney who is billingual to represent you in your immigration matters?

We've never had to hire an attorney before to fill out forms and we are not going to start now.

Explain to me how this makes sense. A French speaking Canadian anywhere in Canada can fill out sponsorship forms in French to sponsor a close family member to come live in Canada, however an English speaking Canadian is not entitled to the same rights. A person in his/her own home town can't sponsor a family member because they cannot fill out the forms as they can only be filled out in French.

When we mention note of this clear violation of civil rights to family, friends and officials in the U.S., they will probably not believe us. However, we'll just tell them to look it up for themselves at --, bottom of page 9.

I've almost convinced my husband to packup here, sell our home and move back to the U.S.
 
L Gilbert
Avatar
#17
Nocolor, it is because the policy makers in Quebec are protectionist, exclusionist, paranoid troglodytes. The answer is as simple as that. So it doesn't make any sense to those of us with a grasp on the realities of the rest of the planet.
 
tracy
#18
Being stubborn or indignant are never helpful when dealing with immigration in Canada or the US. Unfortunately for you, you live in a province whose official language is French and you live in the only province in Canada which controls its own immigration. One of the things the Quebec government looks for in immigrants is the ability to speak French. It doesn't make sense to me, I agree with you. My point is, it doesn't matter if it makes sense. A lot of things the government does don't make sense. I jump through all kinds of stupid hoops to maintain my legal immigrant status here because this is where I want to live right now. If the only problem I had was getting someone to help me fill out a form in another language, I'd be thrilled!

You have several options: fill out the forms in French, stay without your family member immigrating with you or go back to the US. If getting a translator to help you fill out a form is too much trouble, that's probably a sign you don't really want to live there that much.
Last edited by tracy; Jan 31st, 2009 at 04:20 PM..
 
Machjo
Avatar
#19
Quote: Originally Posted by no colorView Post

We've never had to hire an attorney before to fill out forms and we are not going to start now.

Explain to me how this makes sense. A French speaking Canadian anywhere in Canada can fill out sponsorship forms in French to sponsor a close family member to come live in Canada, however an English speaking Canadian is not entitled to the same rights. A person in his/her own home town can't sponsor a family member because they cannot fill out the forms as they can only be filled out in French.

When we mention note of this clear violation of civil rights to family, friends and officials in the U.S., they will probably not believe us. However, we'll just tell them to look it up for themselves at --, bottom of page 9.

I've almost convinced my husband to packup here, sell our home and move back to the U.S.

That's the scourge of nationalism. Quebec is even more so than the rest of Canada? Hard to say. I'd say it just manifests itself differently. In Quebec it manifests itself through language policy. In English Canada it manifests itself through either immigration policy, francophobia or anti-Americanism.
 
Machjo
Avatar
#20
Quote: Originally Posted by tracyView Post

Being stubborn or indignant are never helpful when dealing with immigration in Canada or the US. Unfortunately for you, you live in a province whose official language is French and you live in the only province in Canada which controls its own immigration. One of the things the Quebec government looks for in immigrants is the ability to speak French. It doesn't make sense to me, I agree with you. My point is, it doesn't matter if it makes sense. A lot of things the government does don't make sense. I jump through all kinds of stupid hoops to maintain my legal immigrant status here because this is where I want to live right now. If the only problem I had was getting someone to help me fill out a form in another language, I'd be thrilled!

You have several options: fill out the forms in French, stay without your family member immigrating with you or go back to the US. If getting a translator to help you fill out a form is too much trouble, that's probably a sign you don't really want to live there that much.

You have some good points here. I can understand why Quebec would want everyone to know French (saves government money on translation and helps to maintain cultural unity through integration). But once the government accepts you, it has an obligation towards you.

Having said that, I agree that it doesn't sound like she really wants to stay there considering that it would be quite easy in Montreal to find a friend to help her. And so she's using this as an excuse to leave Quebec. If this is the only issue, I've encountered worse in Vancouver.
 
L Gilbert
Avatar
#21
lol But, Quebec's attitude towards language HAS caused people to leave. It IS a big issue there.
 
Machjo
Avatar
#22
Quote: Originally Posted by L GilbertView Post

lol But, Quebec's attitude towards language HAS caused people to leave. It IS a big issue there.

No doubt about it. I`m not saying I agree with it, but unfortunately Quebec is excessively nationalistic, and its nationalism is mainly reflected through its language, whether we like it or not. I`m not saying English Canada is any better of course. It likewise is excessively nationalistic, and, also like Quebec, insufficiently patriotic (two very different things in my book), but in English Canada it doesn`t manifest itself through language quite ads much, but rather through anti-Americanism, francophobia, or opposition to immigration. Same problem, different manifestation.
 
Francis2004
Avatar
#23
Quote: Originally Posted by no colorView Post

Not sure how many of you folks in the rest of Canada know about the laws here in Quebec allowing for discrimination based on language. Well, there are "recent" new laws which amount to a clear violation of civil rights.
French speaking persons living in Quebec can sponsor a close family member, while English speaking persons no longer can.
Several years ago, my Husband was able to sponsor me, an American citizen to move to Canada (Quebec). Like myself, my husband is an English speaking person, who was educated in English in his home town of Montreal, where we both now live.
We were recently looking at sponsoring another close family member, however although we qualify and will easily get approved by Immigration Canada, we cannot complete the sponsorship as the Quebec forms now need to be filled out in French. I am an American, and my husband was educated in English in Montreal, so neither of us are capable of filling out the forms in French. This law was not around 9-10 years ago as my husband did not have to fill out any French forms in order to legally sponsor me to move to Montreal, otherwise we would not be here.
My question is, why have English schools and universities in Montreal if you are going to deny civil rights to citizens who are part of the English speaking community?

Quote has been trimmed, See full post: View Post
Please don't tell me these are the forms you want in English...

--

 
no color
Avatar
#24
Quote: Originally Posted by SirFrancis2004View Post

Please don't tell me these are the forms you want in English...

--


Read the note on the bottom of page 9 ... --
 
Zzarchov
Avatar
#25
Quote: Originally Posted by no colorView Post

We've never had to hire an attorney before to fill out forms and we are not going to start now.

Explain to me how this makes sense. A French speaking Canadian anywhere in Canada can fill out sponsorship forms in French to sponsor a close family member to come live in Canada, however an English speaking Canadian is not entitled to the same rights. A person in his/her own home town can't sponsor a family member because they cannot fill out the forms as they can only be filled out in French.

When we mention note of this clear violation of civil rights to family, friends and officials in the U.S., they will probably not believe us. However, we'll just tell them to look it up for themselves at --, bottom of page 9.

I've almost convinced my husband to packup here, sell our home and move back to the U.S.

Yep the US will always respect your language rights, as long as you speak english.

If its Spanish though, which is not less an official language than English and has been spoken in some regions longer, well lets see you pull that one off in some areas.

Or if you speak French, what was the government policy in Arcadian regions again?

Get off your high horse, its no different in the USA except you are the dominant language there.
 
Said1
Avatar
#26
Quote: Originally Posted by no colorView Post

Read the note on the bottom of page 9 ... --

Nothing stopping you from getting help. As stupid as it is, you can still proceed with your sponsorship plan - or you can leave altogether. *shrug*

I've had to pick up and drop off 'papers' at different embassies, through out the city, and a lot of them require cetain documents that will be processed by their government to be filled out in their country's official language - (of course there are exceptions)here you ususally have a choice of two. Some don't even have English forms, like China. Then the staff can hardly speak English, they point and shake their head at you and the mistake on the form, then a guard with white gloves comes out and points at you, then the door - it scares me.
 
Machjo
Avatar
#27
Quote: Originally Posted by no colorView Post

Read the note on the bottom of page 9 ... --

There is actually a point to this. It saves the government money in having to compete with the private sector for higher-salaried bilingual staff. This way it can hire lower-paid monolingual staff and thus save you, the taxpayer, a few more cents. It's a matter of efficiency. Besides, they were kind enough to include an English translation online so you can just transfer the info from the English form to the French one. So easy you should even be able to do it from English to Chinese.

Honestly, I like the efficiency of such a system and would love to see Ontario adopt the same system.
 
Machjo
Avatar
#28
Quote: Originally Posted by ZzarchovView Post

Yep the US will always respect your language rights, as long as you speak english.

If its Spanish though, which is not less an official language than English and has been spoken in some regions longer, well lets see you pull that one off in some areas.

Or if you speak French, what was the government policy in Arcadian regions again?

Get off your high horse, its no different in the USA except you are the dominant language there.

I fully agree. And just like I agree with the Quebec government adopting but one official language of administration, I'm all for the US governments to do the same. Makes government more efficient.
 
Machjo
Avatar
#29
Quote: Originally Posted by Said1View Post

Nothing stopping you from getting help. As stupid as it is, you can still proceed with your sponsorship plan - or you can leave altogether. *shrug*

I've had to pick up and drop off 'papers' at different embassies, through out the city, and a lot of them require cetain documents that will be processed by their government to be filled out in their country's official language - (of course there are exceptions)here you ususally have a choice of two. Some don't even have English forms, like China. Then the staff can hardly speak English, they point and shake their head at you and the mistake on the form, then a guard with white gloves comes out and points at you, then the door - it scares me.

I've had no such problem in China. They do in fact have forms in English, and I find it a waste of ink. Why should the Chinese taxpayer be wasting all his money for his government to print forms in English when it'll be of no use to the average Japanese resident anyway. Why the special privilege just for us? We're spoilt around the world and we still complain. Well, speak loudly and slowly in the Queen
s English while looking at them condescendingly, and who knows, maybe somebody will understand.
 
Said1
Avatar
#30
Quote: Originally Posted by MachjoView Post

I've had no such problem in China. They do in fact have forms in English, and I find it a waste of ink. Why should the Chinese taxpayer be wasting all his money for his government to print forms in English when it'll be of no use to the average Japanese resident anyway. Why the special privilege just for us? We're spoilt around the world and we still complain. Well, speak loudly and slowly in the Queen
s English while looking at them condescendingly, and who knows, maybe somebody will understand.



I've never been to China.

I also think the nature of the business we were doing was slightly different. However, as with Quebec forms, the filing instructions are available in English.
Also, a common complaint with other people waiting, was the non-existent english forms available at the embassy and the inabilty of embassy staff to communicate in english, what exactly the error on their forms, filled out in the countires official language actually was. But again, the nature of my visit was not travel related, so I don't know what was lost in translation.
 
no new posts