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Posts: 6,651 
Videos: 5
Location: Newfoundland!
Videos: 5
Location: Newfoundland!
January 30th, 2007, 01:17 PM
the thing is, we cant force muslim men to say "you can drive" because the law already provides that they can. If their man says "you must not drive" they have a choice available to them. They can either risk the wrath of their man (who will be punished if he does anything he shouldnt) and drive anyway, or they can decide not to drive, to please their man. If it were me i think i'd take the car and drive somewhere remote, start a new life.
the thing is, we cant force muslim men to say "you can drive" because the law already provides that they can. If their man says "you must not drive" they have a choice available to them. They can either risk the wrath of their man (who will be punished if he does anything he shouldnt) and drive anyway, or they can decide not to drive, to please their man. If it were me i think i'd take the car and drive somewhere remote, start a new life.
The Padre
Posts: 4,558
Location: Ontario
Location: Ontario
January 30th, 2007, 01:30 PM
Quoting tamarin
I understand the concern, but I wonder if sometimes we are reacting in such a fashion because of the events in the Middle East. After all, not all that long ago our country tried to keep out non-whites for much the same reasons.
Sanctus, that's not the point. And the question to you is easy: When do you start to react? When the horse is out of the barn or kicking in the stall? As I've said, sharia law made headlines in Ontario last year. An attempt was made to get its official sanction from the Ontario government. Wisely, it turned it down. But that's merely act one in a long play to come.
House Member
Posts: 3,381
January 30th, 2007, 03:21 PM
So what is the problem with this? They don't target any group, but they lay it out very clearly they will not pass laws forbidding people from driving (and if you think all domestic abuse gets reported your nuts), they will not pass laws to segregate children based on gender, and they will not let you decide which police officers you will let arrest you.
Which of those statements is wrong? If Muslims feels this targets them why? Are they doing any of these things? and if they are..doesn't that justify this being passed?
And if they aren't, who cares..its like someone passing a law saying you may not shove mustard in your eyes for the purposes of gambling. It doesn't affect me so what do I care?
Quoting hermanntrude
the thing is, we cant force muslim men to say "you can drive" because the law already provides that they can. If their man says "you must not drive" they have a choice available to them. They can either risk the wrath of their man (who will be punished if he does anything he shouldnt) and drive anyway, or they can decide not to drive, to please their man. If it were me i think i'd take the car and drive somewhere remote, start a new life.
So what is the problem with this? They don't target any group, but they lay it out very clearly they will not pass laws forbidding people from driving (and if you think all domestic abuse gets reported your nuts), they will not pass laws to segregate children based on gender, and they will not let you decide which police officers you will let arrest you.
Which of those statements is wrong? If Muslims feels this targets them why? Are they doing any of these things? and if they are..doesn't that justify this being passed?
And if they aren't, who cares..its like someone passing a law saying you may not shove mustard in your eyes for the purposes of gambling. It doesn't affect me so what do I care?
Clever Clogs
Posts: 634
Location: Quebec
Location: Quebec
January 30th, 2007, 03:29 PM
This town is reflecting what a lot of people are thinking. I am a Quebecer, I was raised and educated in English, and even if the English language has been restricted here it has not stopped me from living in English, raising and educating our son in English. We didn't die when this happened and neither will anybody else. What people are afraid of is that they will change our country with all their demands. Other ethnic groups have come to Canada and have adapted to living like everyone else. Also there have been a few insidents here in Quebec with Muslins and Hesidic Jews that shows how far SOME not all of them will go. If we moved to their countries we sure as hell would be obliged to live by their rules or suffer the consequences, so why can they not come to our country and live like us. How they live in their private homes (except abuse of rights) is none of our business. Outside of their homes they need to conform to our ways.
This town is reflecting what a lot of people are thinking. I am a Quebecer, I was raised and educated in English, and even if the English language has been restricted here it has not stopped me from living in English, raising and educating our son in English. We didn't die when this happened and neither will anybody else. What people are afraid of is that they will change our country with all their demands. Other ethnic groups have come to Canada and have adapted to living like everyone else. Also there have been a few insidents here in Quebec with Muslins and Hesidic Jews that shows how far SOME not all of them will go. If we moved to their countries we sure as hell would be obliged to live by their rules or suffer the consequences, so why can they not come to our country and live like us. How they live in their private homes (except abuse of rights) is none of our business. Outside of their homes they need to conform to our ways.
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Posts: 6,651
Videos: 5
Location: Newfoundland!
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Location: Newfoundland!
January 30th, 2007, 04:17 PM
as for domestic abuse not being reported i take a hard line on this. If you don't report it you can't expect any help. Police and other agencies cannot read minds or invade houses to catch the bastards who do these things. abused women need to either put up with what they get or stand up for themselves. the support networks are available to those willing to be brave.
Quoting Zzarchov
i suppose really the only objection i have is that it was unneccesary to state that women can drive and mustnt be stoned. these are both clear in the legal system. Because of this redundancy it seems obvious to whom the instructions are directed and hence seems a lot like ****-stirring.
So what is the problem with this? They don't target any group, but they lay it out very clearly they will not pass laws forbidding people from driving (and if you think all domestic abuse gets reported your nuts), they will not pass laws to segregate children based on gender, and they will not let you decide which police officers you will let arrest you.
Which of those statements is wrong? If Muslims feels this targets them why? Are they doing any of these things? and if they are..doesn't that justify this being passed?
And if they aren't, who cares..its like someone passing a law saying you may not shove mustard in your eyes for the purposes of gambling. It doesn't affect me so what do I care?
Which of those statements is wrong? If Muslims feels this targets them why? Are they doing any of these things? and if they are..doesn't that justify this being passed?
And if they aren't, who cares..its like someone passing a law saying you may not shove mustard in your eyes for the purposes of gambling. It doesn't affect me so what do I care?
as for domestic abuse not being reported i take a hard line on this. If you don't report it you can't expect any help. Police and other agencies cannot read minds or invade houses to catch the bastards who do these things. abused women need to either put up with what they get or stand up for themselves. the support networks are available to those willing to be brave.
Genius
Posts: 864
Location: windsor,ontario
Location: windsor,ontario
January 30th, 2007, 07:33 PM
Quoting Sparrow
i agree. i dont think they should be allowed to wear those silly clotes either. i always feel sorry for little girls i see with their heads covered. its cruel.
This town is reflecting what a lot of people are thinking. I am a Quebecer, I was raised and educated in English, and even if the English language has been restricted here it has not stopped me from living in English, raising and educating our son in English. We didn't die when this happened and neither will anybody else. What people are afraid of is that they will change our country with all their demands. Other ethnic groups have come to Canada and have adapted to living like everyone else. Also there have been a few insidents here in Quebec with Muslins and Hesidic Jews that shows how far SOME not all of them will go. If we moved to their countries we sure as hell would be obliged to live by their rules or suffer the consequences, so why can they not come to our country and live like us. How they live in their private homes (except abuse of rights) is none of our business. Outside of their homes they need to conform to our ways.
Genius
Posts: 864
Location: windsor,ontario
Location: windsor,ontario
January 30th, 2007, 07:34 PM
Quoting sanctus
i also was reading that in canada we didnt really want non-christians coming in, like jews or whatever.
I understand the concern, but I wonder if sometimes we are reacting in such a fashion because of the events in the Middle East. After all, not all that long ago our country tried to keep out non-whites for much the same reasons.
The Padre
Posts: 4,558
Location: Ontario
Location: Ontario
January 30th, 2007, 10:24 PM
Quoting jackd
So what is the purpose? What are they hoping to accomplish with this code of conduct?
Herouxville's thing is not a by-law, not a law, not even a rule.
It is a simple code of conduct, a declaration of what are the values of the village.
No enforcement, no fine, no legal obligations.
It is a simple code of conduct, a declaration of what are the values of the village.
No enforcement, no fine, no legal obligations.
House Member
Posts: 3,167
January 30th, 2007, 11:15 PM
Well, for one thing the town's getting national attention. Free. And I wouldn't doubt it's spilling across the border as well. Some key American network evening opinion shows are caught in the throes of anti-Muslim rhetoric at the moment. H is arriving just at the right time.
Well, for one thing the town's getting national attention. Free. And I wouldn't doubt it's spilling across the border as well. Some key American network evening opinion shows are caught in the throes of anti-Muslim rhetoric at the moment. H is arriving just at the right time.
The Padre
Posts: 4,558
Location: Ontario
Location: Ontario
January 31st, 2007, 04:33 AM
A Muslim man and wife came to see me to complain about the fact that they are not able to enroll their son in the local Catholic grade school. This is the school I pastor. Anyway, even when I explained that entrance into an Ontario Catholic grade school is confined only to Roman Catholic children, or children of a Roman Catholic parent, they insisted this was discrimination and are threatening to sue the Roman Catholic Seperate School Board.
Very odd, in my opinion.
Quoting tamarin
Good point. i had the strangest experience with Muslims yesterday, almost as if they wanted to confirm what some of the people here have been writting!
Well, for one thing the town's getting national attention. Free. And I wouldn't doubt it's spilling across the border as well. Some key American network evening opinion shows are caught in the throes of anti-Muslim rhetoric at the moment. H is arriving just at the right time.
A Muslim man and wife came to see me to complain about the fact that they are not able to enroll their son in the local Catholic grade school. This is the school I pastor. Anyway, even when I explained that entrance into an Ontario Catholic grade school is confined only to Roman Catholic children, or children of a Roman Catholic parent, they insisted this was discrimination and are threatening to sue the Roman Catholic Seperate School Board.
Very odd, in my opinion.
Senate Member
Posts: 6,500
January 31st, 2007, 02:11 PM
Just saw this write up from the BBC - probaby just a rehash but posting it anyway to compare...
BBC: No stoning, Canada migrants told ~ immigrants shocked....
BBC ^| Wednesday, 31 January 2007, 10:09 GMT | BBC Staff
Herouxville has one immigrant family in its 1,300 population
Don't stone women to death, burn them or circumcise them, immigrants wishing to live in the town of Herouxville in Quebec, Canada, have been told.
The rules come in a new town council declaration on culture that Muslims have branded shocking and insulting.
Quebec is in the midst of a huge debate on integrating immigrant cultures.
Montreal police are investigating an officer who wrote a song called That's Enough Already, which says immigrants are undermining Quebec culture.
'Not racist'
Herouxville, which has one immigrant family in its population of about 1,300, is 160km (100 miles) north-east of Montreal.
Its council published the new rules on the town's website.
I was shocked and insulted to see these kinds of false stereotypes and ignorance about Islam and our religion 
Salam Elmenyawi,
Muslim Council of Montreal
"We wish to inform these new arrivals that the way of life which they abandoned when they left their countries of origin cannot be recreated here," the declaration reads.
"We consider it completely outside norms to... kill women by stoning them in public, burning them alive, burning them with acid, circumcising them etc."
It points out that women are allowed to drive, vote, dance and own their own homes.
The rules ban Sikh children from carrying ceremonial daggers to school, even though the Supreme Court has ruled they can.
The man behind the declaration, councillor Andre Drouin, told the National Post newspaper the rules were not racist.
"We invite people from all nationalities, all languages, all sexual orientations, whatever, to come live with us, but we want them to know ahead of time how we live," he said.
Mr Drouin said there had been a number of recent incidents of culture clashes that meant the new rules were needed.
In one a Toronto judge ordered a Christmas tree removed from a court so as not to offend non-Christians. In another a Montreal gym installed frosted windows after a Hasidic synagogue complained the sight of adults exercising was offensive.
Mr Drouin said most e-mails were supportive of the new declaration
However, the president of the Muslim Council of Montreal, Salam Elmenyawi, condemned the council, saying it had set back race relations decades.
He told Reuters news agency: "I was shocked and insulted to see these kinds of false stereotypes and ignorance about Islam and our religion."
A poll in a Montreal newspaper this month revealed that 59% of Quebecers admitted to some kind of racist feelings.
Montreal police are considering disciplinary action against the 37-year-old officer who wrote the song urging immigrants in Quebec to assimilate.
The song includes the lines: "We want to accept ethnics, but not at any price... if you're not happy with your fate, there's a place called the airport."
Police spokesman Yan Lafreniere said the song did not uphold the values of the Montreal police force and that the officer would be questioned as to his motives.
Just saw this write up from the BBC - probaby just a rehash but posting it anyway to compare...
BBC: No stoning, Canada migrants told ~ immigrants shocked....
BBC ^| Wednesday, 31 January 2007, 10:09 GMT | BBC Staff
Herouxville has one immigrant family in its 1,300 population
Don't stone women to death, burn them or circumcise them, immigrants wishing to live in the town of Herouxville in Quebec, Canada, have been told.
The rules come in a new town council declaration on culture that Muslims have branded shocking and insulting.
Quebec is in the midst of a huge debate on integrating immigrant cultures.
Montreal police are investigating an officer who wrote a song called That's Enough Already, which says immigrants are undermining Quebec culture.
'Not racist'
Herouxville, which has one immigrant family in its population of about 1,300, is 160km (100 miles) north-east of Montreal.
Its council published the new rules on the town's website.
I was shocked and insulted to see these kinds of false stereotypes and ignorance about Islam and our religion Salam Elmenyawi,
Muslim Council of Montreal
"We wish to inform these new arrivals that the way of life which they abandoned when they left their countries of origin cannot be recreated here," the declaration reads.
"We consider it completely outside norms to... kill women by stoning them in public, burning them alive, burning them with acid, circumcising them etc."
It points out that women are allowed to drive, vote, dance and own their own homes.
The rules ban Sikh children from carrying ceremonial daggers to school, even though the Supreme Court has ruled they can.
The man behind the declaration, councillor Andre Drouin, told the National Post newspaper the rules were not racist.
"We invite people from all nationalities, all languages, all sexual orientations, whatever, to come live with us, but we want them to know ahead of time how we live," he said.
Mr Drouin said there had been a number of recent incidents of culture clashes that meant the new rules were needed.
In one a Toronto judge ordered a Christmas tree removed from a court so as not to offend non-Christians. In another a Montreal gym installed frosted windows after a Hasidic synagogue complained the sight of adults exercising was offensive.
Mr Drouin said most e-mails were supportive of the new declarationHowever, the president of the Muslim Council of Montreal, Salam Elmenyawi, condemned the council, saying it had set back race relations decades.
He told Reuters news agency: "I was shocked and insulted to see these kinds of false stereotypes and ignorance about Islam and our religion."
A poll in a Montreal newspaper this month revealed that 59% of Quebecers admitted to some kind of racist feelings.
Montreal police are considering disciplinary action against the 37-year-old officer who wrote the song urging immigrants in Quebec to assimilate.
The song includes the lines: "We want to accept ethnics, but not at any price... if you're not happy with your fate, there's a place called the airport."
Police spokesman Yan Lafreniere said the song did not uphold the values of the Montreal police force and that the officer would be questioned as to his motives.
Genius
Posts: 864
Location: windsor,ontario
Location: windsor,ontario
February 1st, 2007, 05:03 AM
i dont get whay muslims want to come here anyway. they get here and than complain about our morals and the way our people are. one of ouyr neighbours is muslim and the wife is always yapping at my mom about "loose canadian women". i wish theyd stay home/
i dont get whay muslims want to come here anyway. they get here and than complain about our morals and the way our people are. one of ouyr neighbours is muslim and the wife is always yapping at my mom about "loose canadian women". i wish theyd stay home/
Genius
Posts: 864
Location: windsor,ontario
Location: windsor,ontario
February 1st, 2007, 05:04 AM
Quoting sanctus
typical. they come here and were supposed to change our customs and ways to suit them.
Good point. i had the strangest experience with Muslims yesterday, almost as if they wanted to confirm what some of the people here have been writting!
A Muslim man and wife came to see me to complain about the fact that they are not able to enroll their son in the local Catholic grade school. This is the school I pastor. Anyway, even when I explained that entrance into an Ontario Catholic grade school is confined only to Roman Catholic children, or children of a Roman Catholic parent, they insisted this was discrimination and are threatening to sue the Roman Catholic Seperate School Board.
Very odd, in my opinion.
A Muslim man and wife came to see me to complain about the fact that they are not able to enroll their son in the local Catholic grade school. This is the school I pastor. Anyway, even when I explained that entrance into an Ontario Catholic grade school is confined only to Roman Catholic children, or children of a Roman Catholic parent, they insisted this was discrimination and are threatening to sue the Roman Catholic Seperate School Board.
Very odd, in my opinion.
The Padre
Posts: 4,558
Location: Ontario
Location: Ontario
February 1st, 2007, 07:05 AM
Well, of course there will be a period in which Muslim immigrants will be settling in and getting used to us, and we to them. By the time their grandchildren are born, these grandchildren will be totally Canadian and the "problems" with Muslims all over.
Quoting mapleleafgirl
i dont get whay muslims want to come here anyway. they get here and than complain about our morals and the way our people are. one of ouyr neighbours is muslim and the wife is always yapping at my mom about "loose canadian women". i wish theyd stay home/
Well, of course there will be a period in which Muslim immigrants will be settling in and getting used to us, and we to them. By the time their grandchildren are born, these grandchildren will be totally Canadian and the "problems" with Muslims all over.
Bright Spark
Posts: 435
Location: St. John's
Location: St. John's
February 1st, 2007, 10:04 AM
I don't see anything wrong with posting a reminder that certain things are not allowed in our country. People always assume that immigrants will toss out their sharia law mindsets and embrace secular liberalism as soon as they step into canada, but it's far from the truth. We've had enough "honour" killings among canadian immigrants to prove that not every would be Canadian holds Canadian values.
Hooray for Heureuxville
Quoting hermanntrude
they dont really need to insist upon not stoning women, as that in itself would be a crime. and preventing a woman from driving would be dodgy too, after all how would u do it? She's allowed by law to get a lisence and a car, the only way you can stop her is by physically forcing her which would be assault or imprisonment.
If someone tells someone else not to do something (like driving a car) it's their business to say "i'm allowed to do that, and you can't stop me"
If someone tells someone else not to do something (like driving a car) it's their business to say "i'm allowed to do that, and you can't stop me"
I don't see anything wrong with posting a reminder that certain things are not allowed in our country. People always assume that immigrants will toss out their sharia law mindsets and embrace secular liberalism as soon as they step into canada, but it's far from the truth. We've had enough "honour" killings among canadian immigrants to prove that not every would be Canadian holds Canadian values.
Hooray for Heureuxville
House Member
Posts: 3,167
February 1st, 2007, 10:09 AM
Sanctus, recent studies indicate the children of non-traditional immigrants are not doing well at assimilating or fitting in. It is wishful thinking to assume everyone is the same at integration. As we've seen in Europe, Muslims especially like to stay segregated and like to maintain old belief systems and rituals. Not a positive start on a great multicultural future for the West.
But one that should have been anticipated. That is the job of policy makers. They've really screwed up.
Sanctus, recent studies indicate the children of non-traditional immigrants are not doing well at assimilating or fitting in. It is wishful thinking to assume everyone is the same at integration. As we've seen in Europe, Muslims especially like to stay segregated and like to maintain old belief systems and rituals. Not a positive start on a great multicultural future for the West.
But one that should have been anticipated. That is the job of policy makers. They've really screwed up.
