Mighty Intellect
Posts: 1,699 
Location: china
Location: china
April 27th, 2008, 09:50 AM
Truth or understanding comes in a flash, and that flash has no continuity; it is not within the field of time. Do see this for yourself. Understanding is fresh, instantaneous; it is not the continuity of something that has been. What has been cannot bring you understanding. As long as one is seeking a continuity - wanting permanency in relationship, in love, longing to find peace everlasting, and all the rest of it - one is pursuing something which is within the field of time and therefore does not belong to the timeless. Your thought as always .
Truth or understanding comes in a flash, and that flash has no continuity; it is not within the field of time. Do see this for yourself. Understanding is fresh, instantaneous; it is not the continuity of something that has been. What has been cannot bring you understanding. As long as one is seeking a continuity - wanting permanency in relationship, in love, longing to find peace everlasting, and all the rest of it - one is pursuing something which is within the field of time and therefore does not belong to the timeless. Your thought as always .
Steven Hawking's Tutor
Posts: 4,612 
April 27th, 2008, 10:09 AM
China
Sorry but I disagree with you. Some "truth" some "understanding" arives as epiphany but those "truthes" and "understanding" are more often than not, concepts ideas notions and hypotheses that have been offered and tested over and over again. I have some trepidation in granting the label of "truth" to notions that aren't demonstrably falsifiable and repeatable in terms of testing the veracity of a concept. For example, if sufficient numbers of people believe that the "truth" is that an extra-phenomenal being created the universe in six days...does the far reaching "popularity" of this notion translate as "truth"?
China
Sorry but I disagree with you. Some "truth" some "understanding" arives as epiphany but those "truthes" and "understanding" are more often than not, concepts ideas notions and hypotheses that have been offered and tested over and over again. I have some trepidation in granting the label of "truth" to notions that aren't demonstrably falsifiable and repeatable in terms of testing the veracity of a concept. For example, if sufficient numbers of people believe that the "truth" is that an extra-phenomenal being created the universe in six days...does the far reaching "popularity" of this notion translate as "truth"?
Mighty Intellect
Posts: 1,699
Location: china
Location: china
April 28th, 2008, 08:23 AM
Quote:
This has nothing to d0 with the thread but here it goes................"But do not ignore this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years and a thousand years like one day. That's a New Testament 2Peter- Ithink Chapter 3 :6 and I think you are wrong with your loud assumptions wherever they might be aming at , MikeyDB or you are angry at the whole world again.
For example, if sufficient numbers of people believe that the "truth" is that an extra-phenomenal being created the universe in six days...does the far reaching "popularity" of this notion translate as "truth"?
Steven Hawking's Tutor
Posts: 4,612
April 28th, 2008, 08:34 AM
China
You quote the bible...how nice. Now let's pretend there's an answer to my question that has everything to do with your OP!
You suggest that truth "comes in a flash", my response was to suggest that the idea of truth doesn't necessarily "come in a flash." The nature of "truth" is subject to perception and I pointed out that when sufficient numbers of people "think" the same way about something they're told is-the-truth that they embrace this concept as truth not a flash of insight or instantaneous realization. For a very long time many people had different ideas about the moon. Some believed it was ten thousand leagues away some thought that it was closer and otehrs thought it was further. With no way to test the "truth" of an idea...how close to one's experience of reality this notion may or may not be an idea that ostensibly makes sense is regarded as "truth". Similarly the idea that the sun revolved around the earth was regarded as truth for a very long time.
I'm sorry if you're having language difficulties but your response to my suggestion included a subtle insult and perhaps your need to insult me is indication that my efforts to discuss anything with you is a waste of time.
Bye.
China
You quote the bible...how nice. Now let's pretend there's an answer to my question that has everything to do with your OP!
You suggest that truth "comes in a flash", my response was to suggest that the idea of truth doesn't necessarily "come in a flash." The nature of "truth" is subject to perception and I pointed out that when sufficient numbers of people "think" the same way about something they're told is-the-truth that they embrace this concept as truth not a flash of insight or instantaneous realization. For a very long time many people had different ideas about the moon. Some believed it was ten thousand leagues away some thought that it was closer and otehrs thought it was further. With no way to test the "truth" of an idea...how close to one's experience of reality this notion may or may not be an idea that ostensibly makes sense is regarded as "truth". Similarly the idea that the sun revolved around the earth was regarded as truth for a very long time.
I'm sorry if you're having language difficulties but your response to my suggestion included a subtle insult and perhaps your need to insult me is indication that my efforts to discuss anything with you is a waste of time.
Bye.
Mighty Intellect
Posts: 1,699
Location: china
Location: china
April 28th, 2008, 09:07 AM
Mikey DB ,|
I have stated numerous times that I love you , so why would I wany to insult you.
PS I don,t realy care what other people say Mikey ,what do you say?
Mikey DB ,|
I have stated numerous times that I love you , so why would I wany to insult you.
Quote:
Ok Mikey The thread is about Truth,an entity ,truth which you can't find. You might think that you can; you can look for it all you want and if you think that you found it,it will be your self projection . What "kind " of truth are you talking about ?
I'm sorry if you're having language difficulties but your response to my suggestion included a subtle insult and perhaps your need to insult me is indication that my efforts to discuss anything with you is a waste of time.
PS I don,t realy care what other people say Mikey ,what do you say?
Member
Posts: 186
Location: the boondocks of Malaysia
Location: the boondocks of Malaysia
April 28th, 2008, 09:31 AM
IMHO, some truths do strike you down dead like a lightning flash, whilst others come after years of simmering experiences that have come to a boil.
Again truth to me, is very subjective, like art. One man's truth is another's hole in the wall. Your president may have one sense of truth which is manifested in his policies and becomes the staple diet of the nation through the media, while another country prefers rats for breakfast.
Maybe right now, my truth is my feeling of disconnectedness, tomorrow who knows what it's going to be?
The more I think about the truth and where we all like to think it's coming from, perhaps the real truth is that it's all false to begin with and maybe it only exists because of our beliefs.
Just thinking out loud....that's all....
IMHO, some truths do strike you down dead like a lightning flash, whilst others come after years of simmering experiences that have come to a boil.
Again truth to me, is very subjective, like art. One man's truth is another's hole in the wall. Your president may have one sense of truth which is manifested in his policies and becomes the staple diet of the nation through the media, while another country prefers rats for breakfast.
Maybe right now, my truth is my feeling of disconnectedness, tomorrow who knows what it's going to be?
The more I think about the truth and where we all like to think it's coming from, perhaps the real truth is that it's all false to begin with and maybe it only exists because of our beliefs.
Just thinking out loud....that's all....
Steven Hawking's Tutor
Posts: 4,612
April 28th, 2008, 10:10 AM
Good morning Jellyfarm!
(It's morning where I am but I realize it might not be morning where you are!)
China talks about "truth" and I'm uncertain what he means. If he means that the sun is in the sky then yes this is "truth". If he means that rain falls from the sky then yes this is "truth"..... when we can experience the "truth" of a thing we perhaps have that instantaneous insight that he talks about but there are a great many "truths" that aren't as readily available to moments of briliance and readily recognizeable. We "learn" un-truths about so much that goes on in our world...and sometimes these "un-truths" are embraced as "truth".
If we think of truth as concept, we have to recognize that "truth" is not an absolute commonality throughout the universe."Truth" is a local phenomenon and temporal in nature. For example we might say...If I'm standing on my front porch and I drop my coffee cup that cup will fall, accelerating at a rate of 32ft per second per second until it impacts the floor, if on the other hand we were standing on the moon, our notion of "truth" regarding the nature of falling objects would have to be revised!
This is I would agree a rather fantastic example since few of us will ever stand on the moon, but the conceptual "gist" the "hard-and-fast" meaning of the word "truth" simply doesn't exist. We use an idea of truth present in the here and now to describe a situation that our experience informs our consiousness is a reliable predictor of future events or phenomenon. We can say for example that a red rose is "red" but what do we mean by "red"? Is the qualia of "red" exactly the same for every being that experiences that rose?
Of course it isn't! To a person suffering from a form of color-blindness the appearance of that red-rose may appear purple or some other color. "Truth" inheres to a subjective evaluation of reality. It is "true" in the broader sense that our estimates of what "truth" might be in any given situation is the satisfaction of a pre-concieved notion about that thing event or situation. For example, a clever lawyer would question a group of people who were standing beside the road at an intersection and witnessed an automobile collision..."What color was the car coming down Orchid Avenue...?" Some people might say "The car travelling down Orchid Avenue was green." Another person at the same moment observing the same event might say "The car travelling down Orchid Avenue was blue."
What is the truth?
China goes further and suggests that the way human beings intuit the concept of truth is instantaneous and I think that sometimes that might be true but it's also true that until you eduate and open the eyes and minds of some people, they only think they know the "truth".
This becomes very important when we consider things like love and respect, tolerance and morality. Our pre-conceived notions about right and wrong may lead us in the "wrong" direction, and our sense of the "truth" may be inaccurate becasue we've "learned" the "truth" at the knee of our parents or our teachers and they may have either intentionally or unintentionally misguided our perceptions of "truth".
It's easy to throw out a concept and unfurl some rhetoric like a flag waving in the breeze but it's another thing altogether to strip away the potential for misunderstanding and mis-perception and try to deal with the essence of a notion or a concept.
Good morning Jellyfarm!
(It's morning where I am but I realize it might not be morning where you are!)
China talks about "truth" and I'm uncertain what he means. If he means that the sun is in the sky then yes this is "truth". If he means that rain falls from the sky then yes this is "truth"..... when we can experience the "truth" of a thing we perhaps have that instantaneous insight that he talks about but there are a great many "truths" that aren't as readily available to moments of briliance and readily recognizeable. We "learn" un-truths about so much that goes on in our world...and sometimes these "un-truths" are embraced as "truth".
If we think of truth as concept, we have to recognize that "truth" is not an absolute commonality throughout the universe."Truth" is a local phenomenon and temporal in nature. For example we might say...If I'm standing on my front porch and I drop my coffee cup that cup will fall, accelerating at a rate of 32ft per second per second until it impacts the floor, if on the other hand we were standing on the moon, our notion of "truth" regarding the nature of falling objects would have to be revised!
This is I would agree a rather fantastic example since few of us will ever stand on the moon, but the conceptual "gist" the "hard-and-fast" meaning of the word "truth" simply doesn't exist. We use an idea of truth present in the here and now to describe a situation that our experience informs our consiousness is a reliable predictor of future events or phenomenon. We can say for example that a red rose is "red" but what do we mean by "red"? Is the qualia of "red" exactly the same for every being that experiences that rose?
Of course it isn't! To a person suffering from a form of color-blindness the appearance of that red-rose may appear purple or some other color. "Truth" inheres to a subjective evaluation of reality. It is "true" in the broader sense that our estimates of what "truth" might be in any given situation is the satisfaction of a pre-concieved notion about that thing event or situation. For example, a clever lawyer would question a group of people who were standing beside the road at an intersection and witnessed an automobile collision..."What color was the car coming down Orchid Avenue...?" Some people might say "The car travelling down Orchid Avenue was green." Another person at the same moment observing the same event might say "The car travelling down Orchid Avenue was blue."
What is the truth?
China goes further and suggests that the way human beings intuit the concept of truth is instantaneous and I think that sometimes that might be true but it's also true that until you eduate and open the eyes and minds of some people, they only think they know the "truth".
This becomes very important when we consider things like love and respect, tolerance and morality. Our pre-conceived notions about right and wrong may lead us in the "wrong" direction, and our sense of the "truth" may be inaccurate becasue we've "learned" the "truth" at the knee of our parents or our teachers and they may have either intentionally or unintentionally misguided our perceptions of "truth".
It's easy to throw out a concept and unfurl some rhetoric like a flag waving in the breeze but it's another thing altogether to strip away the potential for misunderstanding and mis-perception and try to deal with the essence of a notion or a concept.
Mighty Intellect
Posts: 1,699
Location: china
Location: china
April 30th, 2008, 03:50 AM
MikeyDB
Your life is shaped, controlled by the society which you have created. You have created the wars, the leaders; you have created the organized religions or philosophies of which you are now slave. So your life is predetermined. And to be free, you must first be aware that your life is predetermined, that it is conditioned, that all your responses are more or less the same as those of everybody else throughout the world. Superficially your responses may be different; you may respond one way in India or in China, and so on, but fundamentally you are held in the framework of your particular conditioning, and you are never an individual. Therefore it is absurd to talk about freedom . You can choose between blue cloth and red cloth, and that is about all; your freedom is on that level. If you go into it very deeply, you will find that you are not an individual at all.
So Mikey, in going into it very deeply, you will also find that you can be free from all this conditioning—as a Chinese, Canadian , as a Catholic, as a Hindu, as a believer or a nonbeliever. You can be free from it all. Then you will know what it is to have an Innocent mind, and it is only such a mind that can find out what is truth.
MikeyDB
Your life is shaped, controlled by the society which you have created. You have created the wars, the leaders; you have created the organized religions or philosophies of which you are now slave. So your life is predetermined. And to be free, you must first be aware that your life is predetermined, that it is conditioned, that all your responses are more or less the same as those of everybody else throughout the world. Superficially your responses may be different; you may respond one way in India or in China, and so on, but fundamentally you are held in the framework of your particular conditioning, and you are never an individual. Therefore it is absurd to talk about freedom . You can choose between blue cloth and red cloth, and that is about all; your freedom is on that level. If you go into it very deeply, you will find that you are not an individual at all.
So Mikey, in going into it very deeply, you will also find that you can be free from all this conditioning—as a Chinese, Canadian , as a Catholic, as a Hindu, as a believer or a nonbeliever. You can be free from it all. Then you will know what it is to have an Innocent mind, and it is only such a mind that can find out what is truth.
Steven Hawking's Tutor
Posts: 4,612
April 30th, 2008, 08:08 AM
China
Your most recent post is so full of fallacies and errors I wouldn't know where to begin.
So I won't.
You have all the answers and you've demonstrated repeatedly that you're not particularly open to considering any other point of view that those you've embraced and regurgitate as ultimate "truth".
Have a nice day.
China
Your most recent post is so full of fallacies and errors I wouldn't know where to begin.
So I won't.
You have all the answers and you've demonstrated repeatedly that you're not particularly open to considering any other point of view that those you've embraced and regurgitate as ultimate "truth".
Have a nice day.
Mighty Intellect
Posts: 1,699
Location: china
Location: china
April 30th, 2008, 08:29 AM
What I,m doing is inviting you to an intelligent discussion Mr.
Quote:
Your most recent post is so full of fallacies and errors I wouldn't know where to begin.
Please show me one error and explain why it is an error- thats where you can begin MikeyDBYour most recent post is so full of fallacies and errors I wouldn't know where to begin.
What I,m doing is inviting you to an intelligent discussion Mr.
Super Genius
Posts: 1,053
Location: BC
Location: BC
May 6th, 2008, 06:19 AM
Quoting china
I nihilate myself so that I can be myself, which is the deception required so that I can see myself reflected on that which I have nihilated as myself. In this way, I am both In-myself and Of-myself, which is the only way I can truly see myself - that does not exist.
Scott Free
Yes , and with that kind of an attitude you have bin deceiving yourself for a long time and obviously you are'nt that free of a scott ....Free Scott
Yes , and with that kind of an attitude you have bin deceiving yourself for a long time and obviously you are'nt that free of a scott ....Free Scott
Mighty Intellect
Posts: 1,699
Location: china
Location: china
May 6th, 2008, 06:25 AM
Quote:
Terrific, Scott ,as long as you 're free .
I nihilate myself so that I can be myself, which is the deception required so that I can see myself reflected on that which I have nihilated as myself. In this way, I am both In-myself and Of-myself, which is the only way I can truly see myself.
Super Genius
Posts: 1,053
Location: BC
Location: BC
May 6th, 2008, 06:35 AM
Quoting china
We are all free. Limitation is in the imagining of contrast.
Terrific, Scott ,as long as you 're free .
