Mighty Intellect
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Location: china
Location: china
April 16th, 2008, 05:52 AM
We think that ideals are necessary. But do ideals help to bring about ta change in us? Or do they merely enable us to postpone, to push change into the future, and thereby avoid the immediate, radical change? Surely, so long as we have ideals, we never really change but hold on to our ideals as a means of postponement, of avoiding the immediate change which is so essential. I know it is taken for granted by the majority of us that ideals are indispensible, for without them we think there would be no impetus to change, and we would rot, stagnate. But I am questioning whether ideals of any kind ever do transform our thinking. Why do we have ideals? If I am violent, need I have the ideal of nonviolence? I do not know if you have thought about this at all. If I am violent—as most of us are in different degrees—is it necessary for me to have the ideal of nonviolence? Will the pursuit of nonviolence free the mind from violence? Or is the very pursuit of nonviolence actually an impediment to the understanding of violence? After all, I can understand violence only when, with my whole mind, I give complete attention to the problem. And the moment I am wholly concerned with violence and the understanding of violence, what significance has the ideal of nonviolence? It seems to me that the pursuit of the ideal is an evasion, a postponement. If I am to understand violence, I must give my whole mind to it and not allow myself to be distracted by the ideal of nonviolence.
We think that ideals are necessary. But do ideals help to bring about ta change in us? Or do they merely enable us to postpone, to push change into the future, and thereby avoid the immediate, radical change? Surely, so long as we have ideals, we never really change but hold on to our ideals as a means of postponement, of avoiding the immediate change which is so essential. I know it is taken for granted by the majority of us that ideals are indispensible, for without them we think there would be no impetus to change, and we would rot, stagnate. But I am questioning whether ideals of any kind ever do transform our thinking. Why do we have ideals? If I am violent, need I have the ideal of nonviolence? I do not know if you have thought about this at all. If I am violent—as most of us are in different degrees—is it necessary for me to have the ideal of nonviolence? Will the pursuit of nonviolence free the mind from violence? Or is the very pursuit of nonviolence actually an impediment to the understanding of violence? After all, I can understand violence only when, with my whole mind, I give complete attention to the problem. And the moment I am wholly concerned with violence and the understanding of violence, what significance has the ideal of nonviolence? It seems to me that the pursuit of the ideal is an evasion, a postponement. If I am to understand violence, I must give my whole mind to it and not allow myself to be distracted by the ideal of nonviolence.
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April 16th, 2008, 05:57 AM
perhaps neccesary is the wrong word. Perhaps they are unavoidable. Who couldn't live their life without ever forming an idea of what they want?
perhaps neccesary is the wrong word. Perhaps they are unavoidable. Who couldn't live their life without ever forming an idea of what they want?
Steven Hawking's Hero
Posts: 6,445
April 16th, 2008, 06:32 AM
Interesting question as always - I felt some negativity attached to ideals from you as if they are part of your driven but unfinished work rather than a focus upon which to guide yourself once the decision is fully formed.
One can be a master of ideals or a slave - as with all things - we choose to react to our ideals in a positive way or not.
I think they are necessary of course and unless one is impaired, ideals are part of our reasoning process by which we make decisions over our lifetimes.
Curio
Quote:
China China writes
We think that ideals are necessary. But do ideals help to bring about ta change in us? Or do they merely enable us to postpone, to push change into the future, and thereby avoid the immediate, radical change? Surely, so long as we have ideals, we never really change but hold on to our ideals as a means of postponement, of avoiding the immediate change which is so essential. I know it is taken for granted by the majority of us that ideals are indispensible, for without them we think there would be no impetus to change, and we would rot, stagnate. But I am questioning whether ideals of any kind ever do transform our thinking. Why do we have ideals? If I am violent, need I have the ideal of nonviolence? I do not know if you have thought about this at all. If I am violent—as most of us are in different degrees—is it necessary for me to have the ideal of nonviolence? Will the pursuit of nonviolence free the mind from violence? Or is the very pursuit of nonviolence actually an impediment to the understanding of violence? After all, I can understand violence only when, with my whole mind, I give complete attention to the problem. And the moment I am wholly concerned with violence and the understanding of violence, what significance has the ideal of nonviolence? It seems to me that the pursuit of the ideal is an evasion, a postponement. If I am to understand violence, I must give my whole mind to it and not allow myself to be distracted by the ideal of nonviolence.
We think that ideals are necessary. But do ideals help to bring about ta change in us? Or do they merely enable us to postpone, to push change into the future, and thereby avoid the immediate, radical change? Surely, so long as we have ideals, we never really change but hold on to our ideals as a means of postponement, of avoiding the immediate change which is so essential. I know it is taken for granted by the majority of us that ideals are indispensible, for without them we think there would be no impetus to change, and we would rot, stagnate. But I am questioning whether ideals of any kind ever do transform our thinking. Why do we have ideals? If I am violent, need I have the ideal of nonviolence? I do not know if you have thought about this at all. If I am violent—as most of us are in different degrees—is it necessary for me to have the ideal of nonviolence? Will the pursuit of nonviolence free the mind from violence? Or is the very pursuit of nonviolence actually an impediment to the understanding of violence? After all, I can understand violence only when, with my whole mind, I give complete attention to the problem. And the moment I am wholly concerned with violence and the understanding of violence, what significance has the ideal of nonviolence? It seems to me that the pursuit of the ideal is an evasion, a postponement. If I am to understand violence, I must give my whole mind to it and not allow myself to be distracted by the ideal of nonviolence.
Interesting question as always - I felt some negativity attached to ideals from you as if they are part of your driven but unfinished work rather than a focus upon which to guide yourself once the decision is fully formed.
One can be a master of ideals or a slave - as with all things - we choose to react to our ideals in a positive way or not.
I think they are necessary of course and unless one is impaired, ideals are part of our reasoning process by which we make decisions over our lifetimes.
Curio
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April 16th, 2008, 07:36 AM
What do we really think though? I-deals, we-deals, me-deals, us-deals, you-deals, them-deals,
sweet-deals or lemon peels I will have another coffee. Like the lady says it's an interesting question as usual.
What do we really think though? I-deals, we-deals, me-deals, us-deals, you-deals, them-deals,
sweet-deals or lemon peels I will have another coffee. Like the lady says it's an interesting question as usual.
Time Out
Posts: 203
Location: Canada - Golden Triangle
Location: Canada - Golden Triangle
April 16th, 2008, 07:37 AM
I must try to understand what you are trying to get at. Perhaps the following might help:
241 Moby Thesaurus words for "ideal":
Arcadian, Edenic, Geistesgeschichte, Hegelian idea, Kantian idea,
Platonic form, Platonic idea, Utopian, absolute, abstract,
academic, acme, ambition, apotheosis, apprehension, archetypal,
archetype, archetypical, armchair, aspiration, assumption, autism,
autistic thinking, basis, beau ideal, belief, best type,
beyond all praise, brainstorm, calling, caprice, cause, celestial,
chaste, chimerical, classic, classical, complete, complex idea,
conceit, concept, conception, conceptual, conclusion, conjectural,
conjecture, consideration, consummate, conviction, criterion,
cynosure, defectless, dereism, dereistic thinking, dream, dreamery,
ego ideal, epitome, estimation, eternal object, eternal universal,
example, excellent, exemplar, exemplary, fancied, fanciful, fancy,
fantasy, faultless, feeling, fictitious, flawless, flight of fancy,
formal cause, goal, good example, ground, guess, guiding light,
guiding star, heavenly, hero, high goal, highest category,
history of ideas, hypothesis, hypothetic, hypothetical, idealism,
idealistic, ideality, idealization, idealized, ideals, ideate,
ideational, ideatum, idee-force, ideological, idyllic, illusory,
image, imaginary, imaginative exercise, imagined, immaculate,
impeccable, impractical, impracticality, impression, inclination,
indefectible, indefective, infallible, innate idea, inspiration,
intellection, intention, irreproachable, jewel, judgment,
just right, lodestar, mainspring, man of men, masterpiece,
masterwork, matter, millennial, mirror, model, moot, morals,
motive, mythic, mythical, nonesuch, nonpareil, noosphere, notion,
notional, noumenon, opinion, paradigm, paradigmatic, paradisal,
paragon, pattern, pattern of perfection, peerless, percept,
perception, perfect, persuasion, phoenix, play of fancy,
postulatory, precedential, presumption, principle, principles,
prototypal, prototype, pure, quintessence, quintessential,
quixotism, quixotry, reaching high, reaction, reason, reflection,
regulative first principle, representative, romance, romantic,
romanticism, sake, score, sentiment, shining example, simple idea,
sinless, source, speculation, speculative, spotless, spring,
stainless, standard, standards, subsistent form, supposition,
supreme, surmise, suspicion, taintless, the Absolute,
the Absolute Idea, the Self-determined, the realized ideal,
theoretical, theory, thought, transcendent, transcendent idea,
transcendent nonempirical concept, transcendent universal,
transcendental, typical, ulterior motive, unadulterated,
unblemished, uncontaminated, unfaultable, universal,
universal concept, universal essence, unmixed, unpracticalness,
unreal, unrealism, unreality, unspotted, untainted, upward looking,
utopian, utopianism, vagary, very, very model, view, visionariness,
visionary, vocation, whim, whimsy, wish fulfillment,
wish-fulfillment fantasy, wishful thinking.
It is not so cut and dried as you might like it to be.
Best Regards,
Johai
Quoting china
China,
We think that ideals are necessary. But do ideals help to bring about ta change in us? Or do they merely enable us to postpone, to push change into the future, and thereby avoid the immediate, radical change? Surely, so long as we have ideals, we never really change but hold on to our ideals as a means of postponement, of avoiding the immediate change which is so essential. I know it is taken for granted by the majority of us that ideals are indispensible, for without them we think there would be no impetus to change, and we would rot, stagnate. But I am questioning whether ideals of any kind ever do transform our thinking. Why do we have ideals? If I am violent, need I have the ideal of nonviolence? I do not know if you have thought about this at all. If I am violent—as most of us are in different degrees—is it necessary for me to have the ideal of nonviolence? Will the pursuit of nonviolence free the mind from violence? Or is the very pursuit of nonviolence actually an impediment to the understanding of violence? After all, I can understand violence only when, with my whole mind, I give complete attention to the problem. And the moment I am wholly concerned with violence and the understanding of violence, what significance has the ideal of nonviolence? It seems to me that the pursuit of the ideal is an evasion, a postponement. If I am to understand violence, I must give my whole mind to it and not allow myself to be distracted by the ideal of nonviolence.
I must try to understand what you are trying to get at. Perhaps the following might help:
241 Moby Thesaurus words for "ideal":
Arcadian, Edenic, Geistesgeschichte, Hegelian idea, Kantian idea,
Platonic form, Platonic idea, Utopian, absolute, abstract,
academic, acme, ambition, apotheosis, apprehension, archetypal,
archetype, archetypical, armchair, aspiration, assumption, autism,
autistic thinking, basis, beau ideal, belief, best type,
beyond all praise, brainstorm, calling, caprice, cause, celestial,
chaste, chimerical, classic, classical, complete, complex idea,
conceit, concept, conception, conceptual, conclusion, conjectural,
conjecture, consideration, consummate, conviction, criterion,
cynosure, defectless, dereism, dereistic thinking, dream, dreamery,
ego ideal, epitome, estimation, eternal object, eternal universal,
example, excellent, exemplar, exemplary, fancied, fanciful, fancy,
fantasy, faultless, feeling, fictitious, flawless, flight of fancy,
formal cause, goal, good example, ground, guess, guiding light,
guiding star, heavenly, hero, high goal, highest category,
history of ideas, hypothesis, hypothetic, hypothetical, idealism,
idealistic, ideality, idealization, idealized, ideals, ideate,
ideational, ideatum, idee-force, ideological, idyllic, illusory,
image, imaginary, imaginative exercise, imagined, immaculate,
impeccable, impractical, impracticality, impression, inclination,
indefectible, indefective, infallible, innate idea, inspiration,
intellection, intention, irreproachable, jewel, judgment,
just right, lodestar, mainspring, man of men, masterpiece,
masterwork, matter, millennial, mirror, model, moot, morals,
motive, mythic, mythical, nonesuch, nonpareil, noosphere, notion,
notional, noumenon, opinion, paradigm, paradigmatic, paradisal,
paragon, pattern, pattern of perfection, peerless, percept,
perception, perfect, persuasion, phoenix, play of fancy,
postulatory, precedential, presumption, principle, principles,
prototypal, prototype, pure, quintessence, quintessential,
quixotism, quixotry, reaching high, reaction, reason, reflection,
regulative first principle, representative, romance, romantic,
romanticism, sake, score, sentiment, shining example, simple idea,
sinless, source, speculation, speculative, spotless, spring,
stainless, standard, standards, subsistent form, supposition,
supreme, surmise, suspicion, taintless, the Absolute,
the Absolute Idea, the Self-determined, the realized ideal,
theoretical, theory, thought, transcendent, transcendent idea,
transcendent nonempirical concept, transcendent universal,
transcendental, typical, ulterior motive, unadulterated,
unblemished, uncontaminated, unfaultable, universal,
universal concept, universal essence, unmixed, unpracticalness,
unreal, unrealism, unreality, unspotted, untainted, upward looking,
utopian, utopianism, vagary, very, very model, view, visionariness,
visionary, vocation, whim, whimsy, wish fulfillment,
wish-fulfillment fantasy, wishful thinking.
It is not so cut and dried as you might like it to be.
Best Regards,
Johai
Steven Hawking's Hero
Posts: 6,445
April 16th, 2008, 09:09 AM
Johai
I believe China was asking for simple personal opinion rather than a plethora of metaphorical descriptives.
Why make it more complicated than it is?
Unless you prefer a podium approach which can be a fun disguise or stunning in its ability to bring a discussion to closure.
Johai
I believe China was asking for simple personal opinion rather than a plethora of metaphorical descriptives.
Why make it more complicated than it is?
Unless you prefer a podium approach which can be a fun disguise or stunning in its ability to bring a discussion to closure.
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April 16th, 2008, 09:12 AM
johai i think you need a better understanding of your thesaurus. Those words are really mostly just related words, rather than synonyms. Although I do like the final phrase it spat out:
wishful thinking.
also a mention of Utopia, which was a concept introduced in a book, as an ideal place, a place where everything was perfect. the clever part of the word is that it was coined because it means "no place" or "nowhere", so inside the very word is the message that it is unachievable because it doesn't exist.
johai i think you need a better understanding of your thesaurus. Those words are really mostly just related words, rather than synonyms. Although I do like the final phrase it spat out:
wishful thinking.
also a mention of Utopia, which was a concept introduced in a book, as an ideal place, a place where everything was perfect. the clever part of the word is that it was coined because it means "no place" or "nowhere", so inside the very word is the message that it is unachievable because it doesn't exist.
Hawkings former plumber
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April 16th, 2008, 10:06 AM
Quoting china
The fixed ideal is as often damaging as no ideal at all. Your example of violence is a good case in point, violence is natural, nature is good, the good are non violent. Is that true?
We think that ideals are necessary. But do ideals help to bring about ta change in us? Or do they merely enable us to postpone, to push change into the future, and thereby avoid the immediate, radical change? Surely, so long as we have ideals, we never really change but hold on to our ideals as a means of postponement, of avoiding the immediate change which is so essential. I know it is taken for granted by the majority of us that ideals are indispensible, for without them we think there would be no impetus to change, and we would rot, stagnate. But I am questioning whether ideals of any kind ever do transform our thinking. Why do we have ideals? If I am violent, need I have the ideal of nonviolence? I do not know if you have thought about this at all. If I am violent—as most of us are in different degrees—is it necessary for me to have the ideal of nonviolence? Will the pursuit of nonviolence free the mind from violence? Or is the very pursuit of nonviolence actually an impediment to the understanding of violence? After all, I can understand violence only when, with my whole mind, I give complete attention to the problem. And the moment I am wholly concerned with violence and the understanding of violence, what significance has the ideal of nonviolence? It seems to me that the pursuit of the ideal is an evasion, a postponement. If I am to understand violence, I must give my whole mind to it and not allow myself to be distracted by the ideal of nonviolence.
Time Out
Posts: 203
Location: Canada - Golden Triangle
Location: Canada - Golden Triangle
April 16th, 2008, 10:22 AM
Regards,
Johai
Quoting Curiosity
That was not my intention, for I wanted to put in some lea way, but I think that Mikey's approach was better. Johai
I believe China was asking for simple personal opinion rather than a plethora of metaphorical descriptives.
Why make it more complicated than it is?
Unless you prefer a podium approach which can be a fun disguise or stunning in its ability to bring a discussion to closure.
I believe China was asking for simple personal opinion rather than a plethora of metaphorical descriptives.
Why make it more complicated than it is?
Unless you prefer a podium approach which can be a fun disguise or stunning in its ability to bring a discussion to closure.
Regards,
Johai
Mighty Intellect
Posts: 1,774
Location: in town
Location: in town
April 16th, 2008, 10:39 AM
What is my ideal???
Hmmm... let me think ..... ??.... an ideal cholesterol level! No, forget that! Much more important is the ideal weight!!!! Aaah, now there is something to strive for!!!!
With an ideal blood pressure I might feel so much healthier! Ideal health!
I know now what I would like.... an ideal lover!!! He would be ideal for me!!
Canada is the ideal country for canoeists!!!
I have this ideal image in my head... I would like to look like Marilyn Monroe!!
Today is the ideal time to rake the lawn!
China, YOU are the ideal sh.t disturber!!!
What is my ideal???
Hmmm... let me think ..... ??.... an ideal cholesterol level! No, forget that! Much more important is the ideal weight!!!! Aaah, now there is something to strive for!!!!
With an ideal blood pressure I might feel so much healthier! Ideal health!
I know now what I would like.... an ideal lover!!! He would be ideal for me!!
Canada is the ideal country for canoeists!!!
I have this ideal image in my head... I would like to look like Marilyn Monroe!!
Today is the ideal time to rake the lawn!
China, YOU are the ideal sh.t disturber!!!
Steven Hawking's Hero
Posts: 6,445
April 16th, 2008, 03:22 PM
As I said earlier - Ideal could be based upon experiential knowledge and we humans are often predictable in listing our preferences in order, ergo, ideals as well.
Preference somehow indicates a positive tendency to regard a thought or habit - whereas we have negatives as well - and I doubt very much if we humans have preference
towards negativity in most things. Some ideals are fabrications and knowingly unattainable by some.
Quoting MikeyDB
Hi Mikey
If there is no absolute "proof" that an ideal is predicated on some basic fundamental (true for all times in all possible universes) isn't an "ideal" just a preference?
As I said earlier - Ideal could be based upon experiential knowledge and we humans are often predictable in listing our preferences in order, ergo, ideals as well.
Preference somehow indicates a positive tendency to regard a thought or habit - whereas we have negatives as well - and I doubt very much if we humans have preference
towards negativity in most things. Some ideals are fabrications and knowingly unattainable by some.
Mighty Intellect
Posts: 1,774
Location: in town
Location: in town
April 16th, 2008, 03:45 PM
I missed to answer the actual question this morning, "Are Ideals necessary?"
Yes, they are! And they seem to form themselves effortlessly, almost by themselves to navigate us through life. Ideals in many cases are like a climber's rope to hang on to, or a rubber tube for a struggling swimmer.
We would be floating in some vacuum, if we had nothing to navigate our journey on, like a light in the dark, a sound in the forest etc.
I missed to answer the actual question this morning, "Are Ideals necessary?"
Yes, they are! And they seem to form themselves effortlessly, almost by themselves to navigate us through life. Ideals in many cases are like a climber's rope to hang on to, or a rubber tube for a struggling swimmer.
We would be floating in some vacuum, if we had nothing to navigate our journey on, like a light in the dark, a sound in the forest etc.
Hawkings former plumber
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April 16th, 2008, 04:15 PM
Quoting dancing-loon
Did you get the lawn done Marylin?
I missed to answer the actual question this morning, "Are Ideals necessary?"
Yes, they are! And they seem to form themselves effortlessly, almost by themselves to navigate us through life. Ideals in many cases are like a climber's rope to hang on to, or a rubber tube for a struggling swimmer.
We would be floating in some vacuum, if we had nothing to navigate our journey on, like a light in the dark, a sound in the forest etc.
Yes, they are! And they seem to form themselves effortlessly, almost by themselves to navigate us through life. Ideals in many cases are like a climber's rope to hang on to, or a rubber tube for a struggling swimmer.
We would be floating in some vacuum, if we had nothing to navigate our journey on, like a light in the dark, a sound in the forest etc.
Genius
Posts: 965
Location: BC
Location: BC
April 16th, 2008, 04:34 PM
Quoting china
We, as a species, derive at our ideals through the experience of our senses; our perceptions of the world around us. From these perceptions we make conclusions which in turn become our ideals. different peoples and cultures often have different ideals because their experience has been different. Sometimes it is the outright perception which is different but more often than not it is the interpretation of perceptual data that is different. So if the perception or the interpretation, of an event or thing, is different from one culture to the next, then these same cultures will derive different ideals from the same experience. So if the same experience can generate different ideals it is fair to say the humans generates the ideal. This is to say that the event is real, the experience and perception of an event may be real, but that the resulting ideal is subjective as is the interpretation. So yes, your right, while ideals serve as a glue for communities they also serve to limit our perception and interpretation of events. I think so long as people realize their ideals are subjective and the product of their interpretation of events then they can be useful; however if for some silly reason, people think their ideals have some innate truth about them then they (the ideals) are definitely a detriment. Ideals are only useful to a society as a social binding agent but have little or no bearing on reality in my opinion.
We think that ideals are necessary. But do ideals help to bring about ta change in us? Or do they merely enable us to postpone, to push change into the future, and thereby avoid the immediate, radical change? Surely, so long as we have ideals, we never really change but hold on to our ideals as a means of postponement, of avoiding the immediate change which is so essential. I know it is taken for granted by the majority of us that ideals are indispensible, for without them we think there would be no impetus to change, and we would rot, stagnate. But I am questioning whether ideals of any kind ever do transform our thinking. Why do we have ideals? If I am violent, need I have the ideal of nonviolence? I do not know if you have thought about this at all. If I am violent—as most of us are in different degrees—is it necessary for me to have the ideal of nonviolence? Will the pursuit of nonviolence free the mind from violence? Or is the very pursuit of nonviolence actually an impediment to the understanding of violence? After all, I can understand violence only when, with my whole mind, I give complete attention to the problem. And the moment I am wholly concerned with violence and the understanding of violence, what significance has the ideal of nonviolence? It seems to me that the pursuit of the ideal is an evasion, a postponement. If I am to understand violence, I must give my whole mind to it and not allow myself to be distracted by the ideal of nonviolence.
Mighty Intellect
Posts: 1,774
Location: in town
Location: in town
April 16th, 2008, 07:42 PM
but I got the blackberry patch cleaned up!
Quoting darkbeaver
No, I didn't... it was too windy!
Did you get the lawn done Marylin?
but I got the blackberry patch cleaned up!
Gobsmacked
Posts: 4,634
April 16th, 2008, 08:01 PM
love all the responses here... I think they're all absolutely correct.
Ideals are in the eye of the beholder - to me they represent something intangible - something to strive for. Are they necessary? It's an odd question to me. Are wishes necessary? Are dreams? Hopes? Ideals are a part of that realm for me.
love all the responses here... I think they're all absolutely correct.
Ideals are in the eye of the beholder - to me they represent something intangible - something to strive for. Are they necessary? It's an odd question to me. Are wishes necessary? Are dreams? Hopes? Ideals are a part of that realm for me.
