Council Member
Posts: 1,936 
Location: china
Location: china
December 4th, 2007, 08:16 AM
You can observe this fact , that thought and time are the root of fear. Time and thought are the same, they are not two separate movements. See this fact, this actuality, that time and thought, time-thought, are the root of fear. Just observe it in yourself. Don't move away from the reality, from the truth that fear is caused by time and thought. Hold it, remain with it, don't run away from it. It is so. Then it is like holding a precious jewel in your hand. You see all the beauty of that jewel. Then you will see for yourself that fear psychologically completely ends.
You can observe this fact , that thought and time are the root of fear. Time and thought are the same, they are not two separate movements. See this fact, this actuality, that time and thought, time-thought, are the root of fear. Just observe it in yourself. Don't move away from the reality, from the truth that fear is caused by time and thought. Hold it, remain with it, don't run away from it. It is so. Then it is like holding a precious jewel in your hand. You see all the beauty of that jewel. Then you will see for yourself that fear psychologically completely ends.
Hawkings former plumber
Posts: 10,273 
Videos: 3
Location: RR1 Distopia 666 Discordia Drive Apt 911
Videos: 3
Location: RR1 Distopia 666 Discordia Drive Apt 911
December 4th, 2007, 08:42 AM
What do you mean by time?
What do you mean by time?
Council Member
Posts: 1,936
Location: china
Location: china
December 8th, 2007, 05:55 AM
darkbeaver ,
If you'll observe , the consciousness is of time - time being thought, thought being the response of memory, memory being the past, the past moving through the present to the future in a limited way or in an expansive way. The whole structure of the conscious as well as the unconscious is in the framework of time - time being not only chronological time but also psychological time. We have divided this consciousness as the superficial and the hidden. The superficial is the educated mind, the modern mind. And then there is the hidden mind. The hidden mind is all the latent factors of the past; certain parts of it are awake, other parts of it are asleep.
darkbeaver ,
Quote:
Hi darkbeaver, China
Time and thought are the same, they are not two separate movements.
Time and thought are the same, they are not two separate movements.
If you'll observe , the consciousness is of time - time being thought, thought being the response of memory, memory being the past, the past moving through the present to the future in a limited way or in an expansive way. The whole structure of the conscious as well as the unconscious is in the framework of time - time being not only chronological time but also psychological time. We have divided this consciousness as the superficial and the hidden. The superficial is the educated mind, the modern mind. And then there is the hidden mind. The hidden mind is all the latent factors of the past; certain parts of it are awake, other parts of it are asleep.
Steven Hawking's Tutor
Posts: 4,612
December 8th, 2007, 09:41 AM
China
I’m unsure of the intent behind your contribution here China but “time” isn’t consciousness any more than hunger is “life”…
If you lived on a planet with a rotational cycle longer or shorter than the one we’re all visiting today, it’s likely your sense of ‘time’ would be different. Biological triggers sometimes called the “biological clock” or “Circadian rhythm” establish human physiological responses to environment and have nothing to do with consciousness.
Well let me re-phrase that a little…
Consciousness arises for reasons for which no one has any concrete or definitive rationale available that satisfies the question of why or for that matter even ‘how’ consciousness arises in some biological matter and not in others. We observe that creatures with central nervous systems exhibit behaviours that suggest ‘consciousness’, but consciousness itself is a difficult critter to define in an absolute sense…
“The leaves of Mimosa have the capability to display thigmonasty (touch-induced movement). In the sensitive plant, the leaves respond to being touched, shaken, heated or rapidly cooled. The speed of the response depends on the magnitude of the stimulus. Hitting the leaf hard with the flick of a finger will cause the leaf to close in the blink of an eye whereas a gentle touch or modest heat source applied to leaflets at the tip of a leaf will result in a slower response and the propagation of the stimulus along the leaf can be observed.”
There are many plants that exhibit response to similui but we wouldn’t characterize these “behaviors” as consciousness….
“Seeds are amazing. These small packages contain everything needed to make a whole plant, and many also contain tiny sensors to tell them if the time is ripe for germination. Among those sensors is phytochrome, a pigment that is sensitive to certain wavelengths of red light. Who cares? You will if you sow these seeds and cover them with soil. Seeds that need light and often they are smaller seeds will not germinate if they are buried too deeply. When a seed is struck by sunlight (or light from a regular incandesecent bulb) the phytochrome changes. If the seed has warmth moisture and oxygen the change in the phytochrome breaks the seed’s dormancy and allows germination. If the environment is not to the seed’s liking the phytochrome slowly changes back and the seed waits for a blast of light when conditions are better.”
I could go on with examples of more plants and animals from nature that manifest behaviors without consciousness. Take America for example…just kidding…
Consciousness while perhaps desirable in multi-celled complex organisms (given one argument for the occurrence of “consciousness” suggests that the capacity to observe phenomena, integrate the experience of these phenomena and dynamically adapt to the conditions arising from/through these phenomena) is a biological or evolutionary ‘advantage’, this argument fails to satisfy in the case of the broad spectrum of life forms that have survived millenia without the “advantage” of consciousness.
‘Time’ if you really need a metric for differentiating between events and phenomena is similar in a metaphorical way to “growth rings” in trees and similar kinds of signs evident throughout nature. A ‘growth ring’ is a denser cell structure created in response to environmental conditions and informs the observer of the period over which the cycles of cell reproduction have taken place. Of course “period” implies a scale, and this scale is measured among humankind as referred or implied correlation to planetary rotation and orbit cycles.
Consciousness is an entirely different phenomenon.
I’ll tell you what consciousness is…..later.
China
I’m unsure of the intent behind your contribution here China but “time” isn’t consciousness any more than hunger is “life”…
If you lived on a planet with a rotational cycle longer or shorter than the one we’re all visiting today, it’s likely your sense of ‘time’ would be different. Biological triggers sometimes called the “biological clock” or “Circadian rhythm” establish human physiological responses to environment and have nothing to do with consciousness.
Well let me re-phrase that a little…
Consciousness arises for reasons for which no one has any concrete or definitive rationale available that satisfies the question of why or for that matter even ‘how’ consciousness arises in some biological matter and not in others. We observe that creatures with central nervous systems exhibit behaviours that suggest ‘consciousness’, but consciousness itself is a difficult critter to define in an absolute sense…
“The leaves of Mimosa have the capability to display thigmonasty (touch-induced movement). In the sensitive plant, the leaves respond to being touched, shaken, heated or rapidly cooled. The speed of the response depends on the magnitude of the stimulus. Hitting the leaf hard with the flick of a finger will cause the leaf to close in the blink of an eye whereas a gentle touch or modest heat source applied to leaflets at the tip of a leaf will result in a slower response and the propagation of the stimulus along the leaf can be observed.”
There are many plants that exhibit response to similui but we wouldn’t characterize these “behaviors” as consciousness….
“Seeds are amazing. These small packages contain everything needed to make a whole plant, and many also contain tiny sensors to tell them if the time is ripe for germination. Among those sensors is phytochrome, a pigment that is sensitive to certain wavelengths of red light. Who cares? You will if you sow these seeds and cover them with soil. Seeds that need light and often they are smaller seeds will not germinate if they are buried too deeply. When a seed is struck by sunlight (or light from a regular incandesecent bulb) the phytochrome changes. If the seed has warmth moisture and oxygen the change in the phytochrome breaks the seed’s dormancy and allows germination. If the environment is not to the seed’s liking the phytochrome slowly changes back and the seed waits for a blast of light when conditions are better.”
I could go on with examples of more plants and animals from nature that manifest behaviors without consciousness. Take America for example…just kidding…
Consciousness while perhaps desirable in multi-celled complex organisms (given one argument for the occurrence of “consciousness” suggests that the capacity to observe phenomena, integrate the experience of these phenomena and dynamically adapt to the conditions arising from/through these phenomena) is a biological or evolutionary ‘advantage’, this argument fails to satisfy in the case of the broad spectrum of life forms that have survived millenia without the “advantage” of consciousness.
‘Time’ if you really need a metric for differentiating between events and phenomena is similar in a metaphorical way to “growth rings” in trees and similar kinds of signs evident throughout nature. A ‘growth ring’ is a denser cell structure created in response to environmental conditions and informs the observer of the period over which the cycles of cell reproduction have taken place. Of course “period” implies a scale, and this scale is measured among humankind as referred or implied correlation to planetary rotation and orbit cycles.
Consciousness is an entirely different phenomenon.
I’ll tell you what consciousness is…..later.
Hawkings former plumber
Posts: 10,273
Videos: 3
Location: RR1 Distopia 666 Discordia Drive Apt 911
Videos: 3
Location: RR1 Distopia 666 Discordia Drive Apt 911
December 8th, 2007, 11:25 AM
The indevisable soup of life. Fear is caused by thoughts of pain. Stop thinking and the fear goes away.Fear is a much maligned necessity of life, almost as impottant as parsnips. good stuff you write China, makes me think and that produces exquisite pain
Quoting china
Time is a concept only. Time is a derivative of consciousness.There is no future. The past is now. darkbeaver ,
Hi darkbeaver,
If you'll observe , the consciousness is of time - time being thought, thought being the response of memory, memory being the past, the past moving through the present to the future in a limited way or in an expansive way. The whole structure of the conscious as well as the unconscious is in the framework of time - time being not only chronological time but also psychological time. We have divided this consciousness as the superficial and the hidden. The superficial is the educated mind, the modern mind. And then there is the hidden mind. The hidden mind is all the latent factors of the past; certain parts of it are awake, other parts of it are asleep.
Hi darkbeaver,
If you'll observe , the consciousness is of time - time being thought, thought being the response of memory, memory being the past, the past moving through the present to the future in a limited way or in an expansive way. The whole structure of the conscious as well as the unconscious is in the framework of time - time being not only chronological time but also psychological time. We have divided this consciousness as the superficial and the hidden. The superficial is the educated mind, the modern mind. And then there is the hidden mind. The hidden mind is all the latent factors of the past; certain parts of it are awake, other parts of it are asleep.
The indevisable soup of life. Fear is caused by thoughts of pain. Stop thinking and the fear goes away.Fear is a much maligned necessity of life, almost as impottant as parsnips. good stuff you write China, makes me think and that produces exquisite pain
Council Member
Posts: 1,936
Location: china
Location: china
December 9th, 2007, 12:47 AM
MikeyDB
What is our consciousness? It is to be conscious of, to be aware of, what is going on, not only outside but inside; it is the same movement. Our consciousness is the product of our education, our culture, racial inheritance and the result of our own striving. All our beliefs, our dogmas, rituals, concepts, jealousies, anxieties, pleasures, our so-called love - all that is our consciousness. It is the structure which has evolved through millenia after millenia - through wars, tears, sorrow, depression and elation: all that makes up our consciousness.... Without the content, consciousness, as we know it, does not exist.
MikeyDB
Quote:
I’ll tell you what consciousness is…..later. 
What is our consciousness? It is to be conscious of, to be aware of, what is going on, not only outside but inside; it is the same movement. Our consciousness is the product of our education, our culture, racial inheritance and the result of our own striving. All our beliefs, our dogmas, rituals, concepts, jealousies, anxieties, pleasures, our so-called love - all that is our consciousness. It is the structure which has evolved through millenia after millenia - through wars, tears, sorrow, depression and elation: all that makes up our consciousness.... Without the content, consciousness, as we know it, does not exist.
Steven Hawking's Tutor
Posts: 4,612
December 9th, 2007, 11:47 AM
China
“Without the content, consciousness, as we know it, does not exist.”
China
I understand and appreciate the intent of many of your contributions to CC and there is certainly ‘room’ for much of what you offer.
And I heartily support and enjoy your contributions.
I don’t however wish to repeat the ‘formula’ that I feel is inherent in this particular observation.
We (humankind) have turned to mysticism and voodoo to “explain” phenomena when we lacked the more precise language and instrument of science to clarify and describe with precision, those events and conditions that were regarded as inexplicable.
Awareness isn’t consciousness. As I pointed out in my earlier contribution, plants and in fact an incredible spectrum of life exhibit a fundamental awareness of their environment. While the sensitive plant alters its interstitial pressure when stimulated (which results in the response achieved), I doubt this is the kind of “awareness’ to which you refer.
We call someone who is sleeping “unconscious”, and yet we know that this isn’t entirely true. The sleeping person continues to experience stimuli generated out of the sleep cycle which we refer to as dreams. Depending on how deeply immersed in sleep the individual may be, “awareness” of the immediate environment is quite limited. We wouldn’t describe flowers as “aware” and yet an enormous variety of flowers open when warmed by the sun and others open only when darkness falls.
“Whatever its type, the plants that bloom at night do so because they are pollinated by nocturnal insects or animals such as moths or bats. Most plants bloom during the day because they attract the insects and animals that pollinate them with vibrant colors. Night blooming plants, however, attract nocturnal insects and animals because they appeal to the highly developed nighttime senses of the nocturnal animals. Night blooming plants have evolved over time so that they release all kinds of fragrances at night to attract pollinators and so that they also secret nectar at night, which encourages visits from animals that are active only at night.”
This excerpt taken from a botany site on the web seems to suggest that an agent of some kind is at work establishing and equipping both insects and plants to conjointly offer and receive facility to pollination and replication of the plant species…at night. I don’t think you’d call the complex evolutionary development that resulted in this phenomenon as “consciousness”….or perhaps you would…
You’ve advanced the notion that our education, our culture and our “racial inheritance” are contributors to the condition of consciousness. Education, the process of both intuiting and experiential accumulation of information relevant to our experience of existence is a product of existence and when conceptualized as a formal endeavour only establishes a relationship between the “learned” and the “student” that satisfies pride and some sense of responsibility to our progeny to gird them with “knowledge”…
In fact, what we call “education” is less about disciplined dissemination of worthwile information about our world and the cornucopia of elements and components therein but is in fact means by which we may equip our children with adequate (if only sufficient) “knowledge” to participate in the human journey. It (education{of the formal variety}) is about facilitating a milieu that encourages self-examination and cultivating socially appropriate/acceptable understanding and interrelatedness critical to continued social development. Our systems of education are much more about politics and economics than they are about contributing to knowledge about the world. It’s no surprise that social change is frequently heralded by demonstrations and activism arising out of the learning environment we call our “educational institutions”. No I’m afraid that “education” isn’t a contributor to the condition of “consciousness”.
Animal evolution involves some degree of “education” through display of hunting techniques by parents to their young and while we all agree that animals are “conscious” in the sense that they are aware of a spectrum of dynamics and conditions emerging from their environment, the “consciousness” of living creatures isn’t dependent on learning much more than what’s absolutely necessary for survival.
Why do dolphins blow air ‘rings’ while at play?
Why do animals “play” at all?
Some play is arguably the process of honing physical prowess to enhance potential success at hunting and some play is testing peers and can be attributed to a process similar in many respects to “education”….
Is the capacity to experience pleasure and the entire symphony of emotional condition part of consciousness?
“Content” isn’t artefact of consiousness China. Content like the moon and stars, like gravity and fire exist, and have always existed. Consciousness is reliant not on content but on something else….
China
“Without the content, consciousness, as we know it, does not exist.”
China
I understand and appreciate the intent of many of your contributions to CC and there is certainly ‘room’ for much of what you offer.
And I heartily support and enjoy your contributions.
I don’t however wish to repeat the ‘formula’ that I feel is inherent in this particular observation.
We (humankind) have turned to mysticism and voodoo to “explain” phenomena when we lacked the more precise language and instrument of science to clarify and describe with precision, those events and conditions that were regarded as inexplicable.
Awareness isn’t consciousness. As I pointed out in my earlier contribution, plants and in fact an incredible spectrum of life exhibit a fundamental awareness of their environment. While the sensitive plant alters its interstitial pressure when stimulated (which results in the response achieved), I doubt this is the kind of “awareness’ to which you refer.
We call someone who is sleeping “unconscious”, and yet we know that this isn’t entirely true. The sleeping person continues to experience stimuli generated out of the sleep cycle which we refer to as dreams. Depending on how deeply immersed in sleep the individual may be, “awareness” of the immediate environment is quite limited. We wouldn’t describe flowers as “aware” and yet an enormous variety of flowers open when warmed by the sun and others open only when darkness falls.
“Whatever its type, the plants that bloom at night do so because they are pollinated by nocturnal insects or animals such as moths or bats. Most plants bloom during the day because they attract the insects and animals that pollinate them with vibrant colors. Night blooming plants, however, attract nocturnal insects and animals because they appeal to the highly developed nighttime senses of the nocturnal animals. Night blooming plants have evolved over time so that they release all kinds of fragrances at night to attract pollinators and so that they also secret nectar at night, which encourages visits from animals that are active only at night.”
This excerpt taken from a botany site on the web seems to suggest that an agent of some kind is at work establishing and equipping both insects and plants to conjointly offer and receive facility to pollination and replication of the plant species…at night. I don’t think you’d call the complex evolutionary development that resulted in this phenomenon as “consciousness”….or perhaps you would…
You’ve advanced the notion that our education, our culture and our “racial inheritance” are contributors to the condition of consciousness. Education, the process of both intuiting and experiential accumulation of information relevant to our experience of existence is a product of existence and when conceptualized as a formal endeavour only establishes a relationship between the “learned” and the “student” that satisfies pride and some sense of responsibility to our progeny to gird them with “knowledge”…
In fact, what we call “education” is less about disciplined dissemination of worthwile information about our world and the cornucopia of elements and components therein but is in fact means by which we may equip our children with adequate (if only sufficient) “knowledge” to participate in the human journey. It (education{of the formal variety}) is about facilitating a milieu that encourages self-examination and cultivating socially appropriate/acceptable understanding and interrelatedness critical to continued social development. Our systems of education are much more about politics and economics than they are about contributing to knowledge about the world. It’s no surprise that social change is frequently heralded by demonstrations and activism arising out of the learning environment we call our “educational institutions”. No I’m afraid that “education” isn’t a contributor to the condition of “consciousness”.
Animal evolution involves some degree of “education” through display of hunting techniques by parents to their young and while we all agree that animals are “conscious” in the sense that they are aware of a spectrum of dynamics and conditions emerging from their environment, the “consciousness” of living creatures isn’t dependent on learning much more than what’s absolutely necessary for survival.
Why do dolphins blow air ‘rings’ while at play?
Why do animals “play” at all?
Some play is arguably the process of honing physical prowess to enhance potential success at hunting and some play is testing peers and can be attributed to a process similar in many respects to “education”….
Is the capacity to experience pleasure and the entire symphony of emotional condition part of consciousness?
“Content” isn’t artefact of consiousness China. Content like the moon and stars, like gravity and fire exist, and have always existed. Consciousness is reliant not on content but on something else….
Steven Hawking's Tutor
Posts: 4,612
December 10th, 2007, 07:49 AM
Les you old tick on a hound.....
Imagine my surprise and my delight when I googled 'the brights' as you suggested elsewhere and found Dan Dennett!
If you've read any of Dennet's theses you'll be familiar with his work in philosophy and in fact regarding the nature of consciousness....
A most pleasant surprise!
Peace to you Les..
Les you old tick on a hound.....
Imagine my surprise and my delight when I googled 'the brights' as you suggested elsewhere and found Dan Dennett!
If you've read any of Dennet's theses you'll be familiar with his work in philosophy and in fact regarding the nature of consciousness....
A most pleasant surprise!
Peace to you Les..
