#1Oct 21st, 2007
Self-deception.
#2
Re: Self-deception.
Oct 21st, 2007
Those do not even meet ones basic needs. I see Maslows as more definite.
#3
Re: Self-deception.
Oct 21st, 2007Quote: Originally Posted by china
What about love?Food, clothing and shelter -- these are the basic needs. Beyond that, if you want anything, it is the beginning of self-deception.
#4
Re: Self-deception.
Oct 21st, 2007
s_lone
Quote:
Well s_lone , I will share my food ,clothing and shelter with others, but I still don't know what love is.What about love?
#5
Re: Self-deception.
Oct 21st, 2007Quote: Originally Posted by china
I guess I really don't want to go rollerblading or skating I'm just fooling myself? Damn, my skates broke but I don't really want a new pair now do I?Food, clothing and shelter -- these are the basic needs. Beyond that, if you want anything, it is the beginning of self-deception.
#6
Re: Self-deception.
Oct 21st, 2007Quote: Originally Posted by china
Where does the computer your typing on fit into your basic needs?Food, clothing and shelter -- these are the basic needs. Beyond that, if you want anything, it is the beginning of self-deception.
#7
Re: Self-deception.
Oct 21st, 2007Quote: Originally Posted by s243a
The computer board or your skates aren't "basic" or central to your survival. So China is saying in order to actually survive all you need are food clothing and shelter. That is true. It is all we need. BUT he throws a twist into the equation when he adds....everything beyond those 3 things are the beginning of self-deception. Where does the computer your typing on fit into your basic needs?
I don't agree with that part of the equation. And so thus for me it invalidates his first sentence.
#8
Re: Self-deception.
Oct 22nd, 2007
s243a,
Quote:
I wouldn't worry about the skates ,it's not the only thing that broke.I guess I really don't want to go rollerblading or skating I'm just fooling myself? Damn, my skates broke but I don't really want a new pair now do I?
#9
Re: Self-deception.
Oct 22nd, 2007
s243a
You see I'm in business and a computer is a tool in my business , another words.... I WORK. I know that that's a foreign word in Canada.You see I pay for my clothing food and shelter ....the government here in China doesn't supply these things ,this is not Canada ,this is a real world mister, not an illusion.
Quote:
I can tell you but I don't think you will understand.Where does the computer your typing on fit into your basic needs?
You see I'm in business and a computer is a tool in my business , another words.... I WORK. I know that that's a foreign word in Canada.You see I pay for my clothing food and shelter ....the government here in China doesn't supply these things ,this is not Canada ,this is a real world mister, not an illusion.
Last edited by china; Oct 22nd, 2007 at 08:49 AM..
#10
Re: Self-deception.
Oct 22nd, 2007Quote: Originally Posted by china
Believe it or not some people work in Canada. As a matter of fact employment is high right now. The comforting thing is if due to a disability I am not able to work the government will look after my basic needs.s243a
I can tell you but I don't think you will understand.
You see I'm in business and a computer is a tool in my business , another words.... I WORK. I know that that's a foreign word in Canada.You see I pay for my clothing food and shelter ....the government here in China doesn't supply these things ,this is not Canada ,this is a real world mister, not an illusion.
Sent from a computer that is a tool in my business in the real world.
#11
Re: Self-deception.
Oct 22nd, 2007Quote:
Try to go beyond .....if you're capable.Those do not even meet ones basic needs. I see Maslows as more definite
#12
Re: Self-deception.
Oct 22nd, 2007Quote:
Try to go beyond .....if you're capable.Those do not even meet ones basic needs. I see Maslows as more definite
That applies also to your second post
#13
Re: Self-deception.
Oct 22nd, 2007
China, what is with the bashing of Canadians? This is not the first time you have done this, either. I work my ass off at work, as do the majority of other Canadians.
Also, you seem to belittle every other poster in this thread. Why is that?
And I do not think love is a self-deception. If all you had in the world was food, clothing, and shelter, that would be a stark, lonely world indeed.
Also, you seem to belittle every other poster in this thread. Why is that?
And I do not think love is a self-deception. If all you had in the world was food, clothing, and shelter, that would be a stark, lonely world indeed.
#14
Re: Self-deception.
Oct 22nd, 2007Quote: Originally Posted by Sal
The last part of his paragraph said "want" not need. Surely people want things beyond what they need to survive. In my opinion only having what you need to survive is a pretty miserable life.The computer board or your skates aren't "basic" or central to your survival. So China is saying in order to actually survive all you need are food clothing and shelter. That is true. It is all we need. BUT he throws a twist into the equation when he adds....everything beyond those 3 things are the beginning of self-deception.
I don't agree with that part of the equation. And so thus for me it invalidates his first sentence.
#15
Re: Self-deception.
Oct 22nd, 2007
In China, one is very lucky just to have the 3 basic items mentioned
#16
Re: Self-deception.
Oct 22nd, 2007Quote: Originally Posted by china
Is this not also self deception? You state that one only needs food, shelter and clothing. All else is the beginning of self-deception. Your job, your computer, these aren't the basic needs. You could supply the basic needs yourself, many people do this. Though I doubt it is what you would want. If you can lie to yourself that indeed you do need to work in a business for someone else's profit to provide yourself with such basic needs, then that is as you said, self-deception.s243a
I can tell you but I don't think you will understand.
You see I'm in business and a computer is a tool in my business , another words.... I WORK. I know that that's a foreign word in Canada.You see I pay for my clothing food and shelter ....the government here in China doesn't supply these things ,this is not Canada ,this is a real world mister, not an illusion.
#17
Re: Self-deception.
Oct 22nd, 2007Quote:
Food, clothing and shelter -- these are the basic needs. Beyond that, if you want anything, it is the beginning of self-deception.
That would depend on what the desirable result is you want. If you provide the "basic" needs as you believe them to be to a child and provide nothing further you end up with a stunted, underdeveloped mentally challenged human being who is unable to survive on their own.
Basic needs would therefore include education, love, and touch.
Last edited by Twila; Oct 22nd, 2007 at 10:51 AM..
#18
Re: Self-deception.
Oct 22nd, 2007
I believe that faith of some kind, whether it is in yourself or in a higher or power or whatever, is a basic need. Without faith (which brings hope and love) you have no sense of self, no NEED to continue to live, no urge to pursue even the basics.
#19
Re: Self-deception.
Oct 22nd, 2007Quote:
Except that the instinct to survive goes beyond thought. It is a need.no NEED to continue to live
#20
Re: Self-deception.
Oct 22nd, 2007Quote: Originally Posted by Twila
Then how do you explain suicide?Except that the instinct to survive goes beyond thought. It is a need.
#21
Re: Self-deception.
Oct 22nd, 2007Quote:
How many "attempts" are successful contrary to what the person intended? Lots. Deep depression changes the chemistry of the brain. A properly functioning brain would not allow a body to die, if it can help it.Then how do you explain suicide?
This is why it's call the Instinct to survive. Try and stop breathing for good. Can't be done.
#22
Re: Self-deception.
Oct 22nd, 2007
Self deception leads to advantage otherwise absent. Denial of competitive instinct is an unnatural handicap in anything capable of abstract thought.
#23
Re: Self-deception.
Oct 22nd, 2007
Mankind is and always has been at war with himself.
Evolution equipped Homo sapiens with self-awareness. Simultaneously, a human being can experience the world around him/herself and understand this awareness as part of a “presence-of-being”. The cognitive process of “being” an independent agent capable of influencing and directing behaviours and activities toward an idealized “better” or “purpose”.
With an enlarged brain case and meat to fill it, mankind was by necessity developing the ‘means’, the cerebral ‘wherewithal” to identify and recognize/appreciate humankinds specific particular and critical (in terms of “survival”) limitations.
“Beliefs”, ‘belief systems’ emerged not from the soil that gave rise to life itself, but the mental construct of “awareness”.
Humankind; a sentient organism capable of experiencing existence in the reflection and influence of life and substance found around him. Through his senses and his awareness of this experience humankind “collected” information. He learned those lessons from nature that every living creature with a central nervous system learns and adapts too, or is “selected for extinction” on the basis that the failure to adapt to the environment that contains and in fact makes “life” (as we know it) possible, results in death/failure.
Key to human survival was creation of various social organizing principles. Self-organizing communities like bees and ants form colonies and social structures, which are both defined and signified by pheromones, and particular and specific behaviours. Humankind employs artificiality and promised “intention”, forceful coercion and threats to his/her fellow human beings.
I’m not going to step you through the past few billion years with the details, but rush to some general observations…of this particular time on the continuum.
The Industrial Revolution changed the developmental direction of human industry and morals.
Agrarian societies (civilizations) remain involved with everything around them as participant while technology permits civilizations to “evolve” into observers.
Mechanization yields enhanced “production”, and is so powerful in its own “right” that those profiting most through control of who produces what…influence the mental process of billions of people. The truly terrifying reality of this condition is of course, is that this control is found frequently throughout human history, in the hands of those least compelled to consider anything or anyone else’s existence. A self-interest that can spawn megalomaniacs Imams, mass murderers’, potentates and pontiffs.
Societies dependent on a reliable local supply of the necessary food and water to sustain reproduction were compelled/influenced, “conscious” that their bond with the soil and all life around them was an interrelationship that would not sustain over-indulgence. Either this became a part of their culture and folklore, “understanding” of the nature of existence, or they perished. Nomadic peoples (those moving to the next supply of food and water) spread far and wide and this movement is both inevitable and emergent in our world today.
Tribalism is the oldest social organizing principle.
Tribalism relies on mutuality cooperation and behavior of all members toward common principles and values. It would appear that nothing enhances influence more than attributing causality to a force an entity a being a creator etc. than acquiescent willing “believers”.
Whether the intention is to ‘seek’ rainfall for a bountiful harvest, or appeasing an irate but entirely imaginary supernatural consciousness by carving the heart out of a willing (and sometimes not-so-willing) supplicant, these means to controlling behavior are impositions on the “natural” state of being of human beings. Artificial rationales for bankrupt performance.
‘Influence’, or the facility opportunity and means to effect change directly on so large a number of people has never existed before and with this effort to sculpt favorable opinion, elicit passion and enthusiasm for “causes” and further “business opportunities”, came religion.
Either it, “religion” the availability to allow definition of what it is to be a human being {the ‘system’, the motivation, the usefulness of this behavior to survival} will remain or it won’t. There is no doubt regarding the survival of its practioners.
Evolution equipped Homo sapiens with self-awareness. Simultaneously, a human being can experience the world around him/herself and understand this awareness as part of a “presence-of-being”. The cognitive process of “being” an independent agent capable of influencing and directing behaviours and activities toward an idealized “better” or “purpose”.
With an enlarged brain case and meat to fill it, mankind was by necessity developing the ‘means’, the cerebral ‘wherewithal” to identify and recognize/appreciate humankinds specific particular and critical (in terms of “survival”) limitations.
“Beliefs”, ‘belief systems’ emerged not from the soil that gave rise to life itself, but the mental construct of “awareness”.
Humankind; a sentient organism capable of experiencing existence in the reflection and influence of life and substance found around him. Through his senses and his awareness of this experience humankind “collected” information. He learned those lessons from nature that every living creature with a central nervous system learns and adapts too, or is “selected for extinction” on the basis that the failure to adapt to the environment that contains and in fact makes “life” (as we know it) possible, results in death/failure.
Key to human survival was creation of various social organizing principles. Self-organizing communities like bees and ants form colonies and social structures, which are both defined and signified by pheromones, and particular and specific behaviours. Humankind employs artificiality and promised “intention”, forceful coercion and threats to his/her fellow human beings.
I’m not going to step you through the past few billion years with the details, but rush to some general observations…of this particular time on the continuum.
The Industrial Revolution changed the developmental direction of human industry and morals.
Agrarian societies (civilizations) remain involved with everything around them as participant while technology permits civilizations to “evolve” into observers.
Mechanization yields enhanced “production”, and is so powerful in its own “right” that those profiting most through control of who produces what…influence the mental process of billions of people. The truly terrifying reality of this condition is of course, is that this control is found frequently throughout human history, in the hands of those least compelled to consider anything or anyone else’s existence. A self-interest that can spawn megalomaniacs Imams, mass murderers’, potentates and pontiffs.
Societies dependent on a reliable local supply of the necessary food and water to sustain reproduction were compelled/influenced, “conscious” that their bond with the soil and all life around them was an interrelationship that would not sustain over-indulgence. Either this became a part of their culture and folklore, “understanding” of the nature of existence, or they perished. Nomadic peoples (those moving to the next supply of food and water) spread far and wide and this movement is both inevitable and emergent in our world today.
Tribalism is the oldest social organizing principle.
Tribalism relies on mutuality cooperation and behavior of all members toward common principles and values. It would appear that nothing enhances influence more than attributing causality to a force an entity a being a creator etc. than acquiescent willing “believers”.
Whether the intention is to ‘seek’ rainfall for a bountiful harvest, or appeasing an irate but entirely imaginary supernatural consciousness by carving the heart out of a willing (and sometimes not-so-willing) supplicant, these means to controlling behavior are impositions on the “natural” state of being of human beings. Artificial rationales for bankrupt performance.
‘Influence’, or the facility opportunity and means to effect change directly on so large a number of people has never existed before and with this effort to sculpt favorable opinion, elicit passion and enthusiasm for “causes” and further “business opportunities”, came religion.
Either it, “religion” the availability to allow definition of what it is to be a human being {the ‘system’, the motivation, the usefulness of this behavior to survival} will remain or it won’t. There is no doubt regarding the survival of its practioners.
#24
Re: Self-deception.
Oct 22nd, 2007
Sorry for the font size folks I still haven't gotten Word and the forum to cooperate...
#25
Re: Self-deception.
Oct 22nd, 2007Quote: Originally Posted by china
Food, clothing and shelter -- these are the basic needs. Beyond that, if you want anything, it is the beginning of self-deception.
Or...
In the life journey of activity required to build a system of perpetual rightful livelihood, untold Wisdom can be learned..
The teaching may in part be in the doing.
If we are to find the Middle Way.
Graham.
#27
Re: Self-deception.
Oct 22nd, 2007Quote: Originally Posted by MikeyDB
The teaching is far less important than the "doing".
Absolutely....There is a constant process of learning and discernment being achieved in the doing...
#28
Re: Self-deception.
Oct 22nd, 2007Quote: Originally Posted by s243a
Actually you are correct he did say "want".The last part of his paragraph said "want" not need. Surely people want things beyond what they need to survive. In my opinion only having what you need to survive is a pretty miserable life.
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