Fragmented thought / thinking .

china
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#1
Our life is a whole but the fact is that thinking can only deal in fragments because it itself is made up of fragments. This fragmented thinking causes human conflict, with all its consequences, such as fear, hostility, grief, etc.the fragmentation and division of mankind brought about bynationalism, ideologies and religions, a process that leads to war and hatred. We are also fragmented by our professions. Obviously, technical knowledge is useful and necessary. Since no single person can have all the existent technical knowledge, specialists, such as surgeons, are obviously necessary.
How do these necessary specializations, with their professional thinking, bring about fragmentation? The problem arises because the ‘I’ identifies itself with the profession. This thinking ‘I’, in its struggles to expand and to overcome its limitations, which it experiences as painful, tries to subject all aspects of life to its control. The ‘I’ tries to exploit for its own interest the specific professional knowledge that that human being has acquired, and therefore separates this specific knowledge from its source, i.e. from the life that generates all knowledge. But how do we actually live, how do we treat each other or deal with each other in therapy as well as in other areas of life?
A psychotherapist, is trained to ‘help’ other people.He is trained to use his knowledge about what is called the psyche to tell the patient what he has to do to get rid of his problems, or analyze him, which he can’t do himself, in order that he understand himself better through an explanations and so become happier and healthier. The relationship, in which the therapist knows and the patient does not know, is based on authority. And this means that there is not a real relationship, because from the therapist’s accumulated specialized knowledge he constructs an image of the patient and treats this image, not the patient. The patient also constructs an image of the therapist, i.e. the therapist as a specialist that, thanks to his special knowledge, helps him to solve his problems. And so there is no shared movement in which to explore the life and the thinking that have created the psychological problems of the patient. The two people talk with their self-made images of the other and in these fixed roles they talk past each other. The therapist concludes that the patient is psychologically ill; he makes a diagnosis and thereby makes it clear that he believes himself to be psychologically healthy. The patient is happy that there is someone who seems to understand his problems and that he can depend upon. Thus he identifies with the diagnosis that he is psychologically ill and that he needs the assistance of an authority figure to become well again. This ‘therapeutic relationship’ in reality is no relationship because both sides are caught in their fragmentary thinking. The special knowledge of the therapist, which is a fragment of the whole, directs and dominates the therapeutic process and looks for its confirmation, like all selfcentered thinking. Such professional knowledge is therefore not simply a tool that is being used in the common learning process, but, because it becomes the authority, determines the process and prevents real relationship. A real relationship only exists when there is a shared seeing and understanding of the outer and inner realities. Every therapist and patient can have such moments, moments of different duration and frequency. And those are the moments that have therapeutic efficacy and from which the patient benefits. The fundamental solution of his problems, however, is possible only if, at such moments of awakened intelligence, the patient finds out that the light is in him. Each form of therapeutic authority, each classification of the patient as suffering from a specific psychological illness, prevents self-understanding – even if this understanding, in spite of everything, occurs on occasion, as when the authority drops away for a moment.As it can be seen in the increasing proliferation of psychological literature, the egos of the psychological specialists, who claim to know the soul of man, are expanding. With this egotistic expansion, people’s psychological problems also increase, as people’s self-confidence diminishes and there is a search for salvation via the psychologist. The psychological specialists have come in as replacements or as partners of the declining organized religions; they apportion the territory among themselves and, once again, proceed to tell people how they must live. Like the religions, they deepen people’s fears and make a profitable career out of it. The price for this is imprisonment in their own fragmentation and fear of the unacknowledged limitation of their specialized knowledge. This fear is, overtly or covertly, always present whenever there is a ‘therapeutic’ action that is guided by the authority of specialized knowledge and not by shared learning. This ‘professionalism’ uses the patient as a means to earn money and ensure its own continued existence, and helps, if at all, only in a partial way.
Last edited by china; Oct 13th, 2007 at 06:49 PM..
 
Curiosity
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#2
China - you put a lot of time into that essay but I have to disagree with much of your analysis

You write:
Quote:

A psychotherapist, is trained to ‘help’ other people.He is trained to use his knowledge about what is called the psyche to tell the patient what he has to do to get rid of his problems, or analyze him, which he can’t do himself, in order that he understand himself better through an explanations and so become happier and healthier. The relationship, in which the therapist knows and the patient does not know, is based on authority. And this means that there is not a real relationship, because from the therapist’s ...

...and it goes downhill even more.

A trained analyst does not 'tell the patient what he has to do .... '. The training is such that the therapist asks leading questions, carving out a path of self-exploration, questioning the why and how for each decision offered, directing the person towards self-discovery.

The process of therapy is done by the person seeking assistance and the listener who may or may not prompt response.

I don't know where you arrived at these conclusions, I find them to be inaccurate at the very least.
 
gerryh
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#3
Quote: Originally Posted by CuriosityView Post

China - you put a lot of time into that essay but I have to disagree with much of your analysis

You write:


...and it goes downhill even more.

A trained analyst does not 'tell the patient what he has to do .... '. The training is such that the therapist asks leading questions, carving out a path of self-exploration, questioning the why and how for each decision offered, directing the person towards self-discovery.

The process of therapy is done by the person seeking assistance and the listener who may or may not prompt response.

I don't know where you arrived at these conclusions, I find them to be inaccurate at the very least.


Possibly from a "therapist" that didn't know his but from a hole in the ground? You can't say that there aren't many of them out there.
 
china
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#4
Quote:

A trained analyst does not 'tell the patient what he has to do .... '. The training is such that the therapist asks leading questions, carving out a path of self-exploration, questioning the why and how for each decision offered, directing the person towards self-discovery.

That's the point Curiosity, analyst, therapist or whatever, DOES "tell the patient (indirectly) what he /she has to do", by using a leading questions.By using a leading questions , one is controlling the outcome of communication.
And, " carving out a path of self -exploration" ( how can there be a self - exploration if someone is carving the way for you?) and directing a person
towards a self-discovery is another form of telling one what to do.

Just "for the record",,,leading questions are not allowed in a court of law, as they are a form of manipulating the one being questioned.
And that is exactly what a leading question is ,a form of manipulation.

Self -discovery , illumination, is an extremely personal experience to which there are no directions , no one can show you the way or lead you to it , there aren't any.One is searching a pathless land.

Do we need psychotherapists ? absolutely ,a therapist who listens ,loves and forgives. Not much to ask.

Quote:

I don't know where you arrived at these conclusions, I find them to be inaccurate at the very least.

I live ,observe ,and tell things the way I see .
Conclusion is like a stale knowledge inside a crippled brain which can not function or go above what it knows.

Inaccurate ?? according to what "authority" ? ( if there is any).
Last edited by china; Oct 14th, 2007 at 07:46 AM..
 
Curiosity
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#5
China - I am corrected - you and I are standing in different places. My fault.

Perhaps I view the situation you describe from the beginning when a person is asking for assistance, or the family of that person is making the contact.

Until the person feels he/she can function towards decision making, someone can certainly be there to reaffirm and plot the plan of recovery.

Not all people are capable of reconstruction of self when true trauma becomes part of their life and until they are capable of 'unfragmented thought' and new self discovery on their own, would you deny them a helping hand as an uninvolved listener to hear their initial request? This requires questioning and hearing and yes direction to a clear path of thought.... initiated by the person in need.

I think even you could not resist - all the while enforcing their own responsibility for the process.

What you describe is some kind of medieval Mengele on a terrible mission. No doubt there are those who fall into that trap through their work, I have not met one. If I did, I would challenge them.

The goal of any helping person is to reconstruct the whole individual who looks forward to life and living again. Where does fragmented thought come into play with such a simple goal?

For example: China - I have had a traumatic year - one in which I had to make decisions unprepared and unwilling, and now find all my hard work was unnecessary and I have to undo the year's plans and restart my life again.

Where should I begin? Immediately you know the answer - as do I, but in my confusion and yes anger at life's cruelty and serendipity at my new happiness - I ask you to help me sort it out and still retain the learning and strength I found during the past year?

You would have the uninvolved clarity to see the beginning steps - and assist me in creating them for myself - my own steps - my own choice.

Edit: Your question re authority. There can only be one available which is past experiences of others documented for followers to study, revise, compromise, emulate and hope for the best outcome. The work which has gone on before with success and/or failure.

Thank you - Curiosity
Last edited by Curiosity; Oct 14th, 2007 at 08:38 AM..
 
MikeyDB
#6
For a variety of reasons not the least of which is that the professional therapist is required to satisfy professional standards at the behest of a supervisory body before being licenced, the therapist is bound to "rules" and "standards" that reflect the zeitgest and the political climate as well.

A therapist brings with them their unique and particular biases and perspectives on emotional conflict and personality make-up. Only "answers" that satisfy the established "wisdom" of the times will be considered (as a general rule) and what we end up having is an entire profession devoted to maintaining the "status quo" whether in fact that "status quo" accurately reflects the social and incidental climate of the times.

If a negro had sought therapy prior to the American civil war, what would the therapist have said?

If a female in a rigidly dominated male heirarchy seeks direction and help from a therapist who's practice is funded by a male dominated teaching hospital or clinic etc....do the messages carry some element of this dynamic or are they somehow clean and pure?

Therapy is fine as a guide, but the guide must be acknwoledged as victim or at least vulnerable to the social mores of the era and the political climate. We have experienced the predominance of prescriptions for ritalin in response to ADHD diagnosis and there have been many other instances where the "professional" therapist is actually playing the role of social architect both wittingly and unwittingtly.

Therapists don't have answers, they have masks for you to try on to see if that mask can make your life manageable.....
 
Curiosity
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#7
Mikey

Re the examples you gave - if a therapist is unsuited to the client - it is the responsibility of the therapist to exclude him/herself from working with that person....which will introduce any bias (which is inherent in all people) - but more evident in the situations you give.

The general public 'therapist' does not dispense medications - not without the cooperation of a medical doctor.

The client is the decision-maker and that is offered immediately - but rarely is a client given an appointment until a consultation (by phone or referral) is made for a suitable therapist. Some therapists have specialities known to their peer group in a community - therefore making suitable referral more constructive.

Even then after some time has passed and the client is not progressing, a change might be suggested to have newer eyes and ears review the problems.

Only a fool would take a client one cannot help. There are those too - as with any profession. The worst thing a therapist can do is begin to feel omnipotent.
 
MikeyDB
#8
Hi Kiddo..

So it wouldn't even be worth an effort if someone presented sociopathy in group or even individual setting? Dream analysis is being used as "therapy"and although many of Freud's ideas regarding dream analysis and interpretation (as well as Jung) are if not entirely discredited, on the verge of being acknowledged as useless.....

One of the things I hate about Dr. Phil is exactly this notion that you believe that you're (as the therapist) equipped to "handle" diagnosis "A" but Not diagnosis "B"...

Behavior modification is used as "therapy" and if you follow Dr. Phil and Dr. Lawson (Phils mentor) you'd believe that everything can be "made better" through these interventions....

Nonsense!

If you limit your caseload to only those who you feel you can be "successful" with, aren't you saying that some particular niche that facilitates your skills and your efforts is the only one suitable for you to address and yet, generalists have been flooding the marketplace for years...a-la-Phil McGraw....

For that 1% of particular and specific situations that you feel are within your purview as a therapist, 99% are to be left floundering...?

I have some difficulties with this train of thinking...
 
Sal
#9
Quote: Originally Posted by CuriosityView Post

China - I am corrected - you and I are standing in different places. My fault.

Perhaps I view the situation you describe from the beginning when a person is asking for assistance, or the family of that person is making the contact.

Until the person feels he/she can function towards decision making, someone can certainly be there to reaffirm and plot the plan of recovery.

Not all people are capable of reconstruction of self when true trauma becomes part of their life and until they are capable of 'unfragmented thought' and new self discovery on their own, would you deny them a helping hand as an uninvolved listener to hear their initial request? This requires questioning and hearing and yes direction to a clear path of thought.... initiated by the person in need.

I think even you could not resist - all the while enforcing their own responsibility for the process.

What you describe is some kind of medieval Mengele on a terrible mission. No doubt there are those who fall into that trap through their work, I have not met one. If I did, I would challenge them.

The goal of any helping person is to reconstruct the whole individual who looks forward to life and living again. Where does fragmented thought come into play with such a simple goal?

For example: China - I have had a traumatic year - one in which I had to make decisions unprepared and unwilling, and now find all my hard work was unnecessary and I have to undo the year's plans and restart my life again.

Where should I begin? Immediately you know the answer - as do I, but in my confusion and yes anger at life's cruelty and serendipity at my new happiness - I ask you to help me sort it out and still retain the learning and strength I found during the past year?

You would have the uninvolved clarity to see the beginning steps - and assist me in creating them for myself - my own steps - my own choice.

Edit: Your question re authority. There can only be one available which is past experiences of others documented for followers to study, revise, compromise, emulate and hope for the best outcome. The work which has gone on before with success and/or failure.

Thank you - Curiosity

An accurate and well written post! Kudos.
 
Sal
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#10
Quote: Originally Posted by MikeyDBView Post

Hi Kiddo..

So it wouldn't even be worth an effort if someone presented sociopathy in group or even individual setting? Dream analysis is being used as "therapy"and although many of Freud's ideas regarding dream analysis and interpretation (as well as Jung) are if not entirely discredited, on the verge of being acknowledged as useless........

Psychoanalysis has made huuuuuge strides in the last 30 years. It is unfair to compare then with now.

Quote:

One of the things I hate about Dr. Phil is exactly this notion that you believe that you're (as the therapist) equipped to "handle" diagnosis "A" but Not diagnosis "B"...

No kidding. He is one of the most patronizing people on TV. I now equate him with Jerry Springer. Only difference, he is Jerry Springer for the middle class.
Quote:

Behavior modification is used as "therapy" and if you follow Dr. Phil and Dr. Lawson (Phils mentor) you'd believe that everything can be "made better" through these interventions....

Nonsense!

Correct it is non-sense. But is it not unfair to paint a whole profession with the broad brush stroke of a multi-million dollar entertainer with a psychology degree.

Quote:

If you limit your caseload to only those who you feel you can be "successful" with, aren't you saying that some particular niche that facilitates your skills and your efforts is the only one suitable for you to address and yet, generalists have been flooding the marketplace for years...a-la-Phil McGraw....

It is the only suitable one for him to address. He is a hack. But he still assists some people and as such yay for him. And I do not mean that sarcastically. Each has it's place.

Quote:

For that 1% of particular and specific situations that you feel are within your purview as a therapist, 99% are to be left floundering...?

So?

Quote:

I have some difficulties with this train of thinking...

Why medical doctors can't cure cancer yet either. That doesn't mean you just leave the person to suffer and scream in agony. You have to start somewhere.

I believe you are polarizing the situation. That is unfair.
 
MikeyDB
#11
Sal

Curio writes well, but cleverly avoided acknowledging much of what I mentioned in my post.

When a child doesn't integrate well into the classroom, it can be for a zillion different reasons, but the therapist is by "understanding" compelled to regard that youngster as "acting-out" or victim to a behavioral dysfunction or physical condition or ....etc. etc. When in fact for instance, the larger pressure in society to excel regardless of the rules (an American propensity for example) influences the child to cheat on an exam or use steroids to make the football team or plagarize someone else's work for a science project...etc. etc., the overarching issue of the nature of the climate of the times and what a society deems as "appropriate" is thankfully ignored....

My issue with "therapists" is that they're often "cookie-cutter analysts" who are so rigidly bound to some particular gestalt that the idea is that everything in terms of behavior leading up to social dysfucntion is the fault/responsibility/illness of the individual when in fact, the larger social dynamics that lead to school shootings and "Goth" as expression of alienation from society in general have impact and influence the therapist must avoid.

It's a game.

It's a game where the vested interests in marketing make victims out of children and families. As a whole society applauds and showers accolades on the rich and powerful and when the Paris Hiltons or the supermodels fun afoul of the law for drugs or unlawful behavior, there's a therapist sitting there waiting to diagnose something that limits understanding as opposed to broadening and deepening understanding of what's happening to our society.

A poor negro kid who's involved in unlawful behavior gets a therapist who marginalizes and limits the dysfunction to that child and his/her family while the Paris Hiltons and the famous popular and celebrated (Anna Niclole) are victims to a crass and vulgar society....to pressure from the paparatzi to anything except acknowleding that individuals personal and specific and particular problems.

We have been conditioned to believe that therapists represent the condition of "health" when in fact therapy is frequently used to sculpt social perceptions and has little to do with the individual per se.
 
Sal
Avatar
#12
Quote: Originally Posted by MikeyDBView Post

Sal
Curio writes well, but cleverly avoided acknowledging much of what I mentioned in my post.
When a child doesn't integrate well into the classroom, it can be for a zillion different reasons, but the therapist is by "understanding" compelled to regard that youngster as "acting-out" or victim to a behavioral dysfunction or physical condition or ....etc. etc. When in fact for instance, the larger pressure in society to excel regardless of the rules (an American propensity for example) influences the child to cheat on an exam or use steroids to make the football team or plagarize someone else's work for a science project...etc. etc., the overarching issue of the nature of the climate of the times and what a society deems as "appropriate" is thankfully ignored....
My issue with "therapists" is that they're often "cookie-cutter analysts" who are so rigidly bound to some particular gestalt that the idea is that everything in terms of behavior leading up to social dysfucntion is the fault/responsibility/illness of the individual when in fact, the larger social dynamics that lead to school shootings and "Goth" as expression of alienation from society in general have impact and influence the therapist must avoid.
It's a game.

Quote has been trimmed, See full post: View Post
But you likewise avoided mine. She was specifically speaking of adult therapy.

Also Gestalt has not be in vogue for years.

Also Freud's hands were tied because of the times he was living in. He caved because of that and sought to make his theories fit with current society. Apparently it worked since he is still considered the father of psycholology. Jung abandoned his mentor Frued and that path and struck out on his own. Also Jung was not a proponent of Gestalt. And while his dream analysis is too weighty by farfor any kind of quick therapy today if you do a parallel analysis of his findings to literature you will discover the symbolism is universal and apt.

I think you dismissed Curiosity's post because it did not fit in with your held beliefs in specific circumstances but you are speaking of two different issues.
 
Curiosity
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#13
Mikey - I might separate the two therapeutic schools here (not avoiding but wanted to clarify something

Pyschiatry and Psychology are as far apart as night and day - with the same goals, however the needs of the client are diverse.

The treatments also vary widely among practitioners and that is why there are specialties now.

I was discussing coherent adults who are in some kind of life event from which they would like to extracate themselves but feel they need help in so doing - divorce, loss, financial, addiction, etc.

Children - especially learning disabled children - are a whole specialty which a therapist treating adults may not be as up to speed as one dealing primarily with children, schooling availablity settings, etc.

The seriously mentally ill with diagnosed disease such as schizophrenia and bi-polar - both of which have attendant medications generally are treated at first by psychiatrists - and occasionally tested by psychologists, depending upon the need of the individual.

I am not avoiding but there is so much and so bloody boring to many.... if you choose to put them all into a stewpot and call them names - that is your choice. My god Mikey I hope you never have to call any of them because I hope your life is comfortable and you with your high mental capacity can handle whatever life throws your way - you are a survivor and an intellect too - a tough combination and one which tends towards being fed up and angry. I don't blame you.
 
Curiosity
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#14
Sal and Mikey

LOL - Dr. Phil gives an interesting take on things - he is a kindly cracker of a guy but it's show biz and while I hope some of the people are truly helped - I think he is a wise man to pass them on to the specialists you see in the audience when they are in deep trouble.

Still I can't criticize for bringing a "shhh" topic to the dinner table.... mental illness, depression, alcoholism, and all the other social stuff used to be so taboo - people were never spoken of in families and the asylums would no doubt drive a normal person insane if they were not already there before entering. When I was growing up my mother had a lady friend who was going "funny in the head"
and I used to stare at her wondering what was wrong with it...seemed fine to me....ears, eyes, nose, mouth...all in the right places. Mental illness has come out of the darkness but in so doing people
see things which they assume is the norm..... there is really no norm at all.... for as many people who need help there are as many different settings in which to give them help.
 
china
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#15
Curiosity ,
Quote:


What you describe is some kind of medieval Mengele on a terrible mission. No doubt there are those who fall into that trap through their work, I have not met one. If I did, I would challenge them.

The goal of any helping person is to reconstruct the whole individual who looks forward to life and living again. Where does fragmented thought come into play with such a simple goal?

For example: China - I have had a traumatic year - one in which I had to make decisions unprepared and unwilling, and now find all my hard work was unnecessary and I have to undo the year's plans and restart my life again.

Where should I begin? Immediately you know the answer - as do I, but in my confusion and yes anger at life's cruelty and serendipity at my new happiness - I ask you to help me sort it out and still retain the learning and strength I found during the past year?

You would have the uninvolved clarity to see the beginning steps - and assist me in creating them for myself - my own steps - my own choice.

Dear Curiosity ,

You can find all the answers and elegant solutions to all problems within yourself. What I'm saying is that all the answers are within and that you don't need anything or anyone elsess help. What you need is to know how how to tap what could be called the "pool of wisdom" that lays inside each and every person. I am cautious with the use of such words as 'wisdom,' but I can’t find a better one and expressly don't want to use the word 'knowledge.' Wisdom is different than knowledge ,something that I have learned very early in my life. Pythagoras used to say that a drop of wisdom was worth a thousand barrels of knowledge. Wisdom implies, for me, an "elegant" quality in the solutions provided, because each solution is perfectly adapted to the blend of the many complexities that make up a given situation. The apprehension of these many elements is not arrived at by analysis, but rather by an instant grasp of the whole picture.This apprehension could be described as a form of meditation in action, in which you endeavor to be aware, in an optimum way, through life itself, of what is happening both 'outward' and 'inward', and what the interaction is between the two. It means that you bring your awareness level to a maximum, while avoiding any kind of force in the process. It is a matter of correct "adequation" between consciousness (I can "hear"you say "cognizant") and reality in its broadest sense. Through this attention, which you will find is difficult to sustain on a constant basis during the day, you learn about yourself and about life. You can also get, without any kind of go-between other than this precisely applied beam of attention, "perfect" answers to most questions. I apologize if this all sounds somewhat pompous. It is in reality much simpler. What I'm saying is that you can find all the answers on your own, they are all lying there inside. No one will be able to help you find them out but yourself, and certainly no one other than you has the key to unlock them, no matter what religions or other totalitarian entities say and how many times they repeat it. The key is, so to speak, in your own attention and awareness, and the way you apply it to uncover the layers of your own self and of life.
Last edited by china; Oct 18th, 2007 at 04:07 AM..
 
Curiosity
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#16
Dear China

I love how you think because I think the way you do (not as intellectually - I am more of a laborer in the field)....

Consider: Some people can't find the answers because it is an area of life and confusion in which they have never explored or forced to examine - they have nothing in their experiential learning which will direct them to sort out solutions. In addition, some
people will avoid fear and confrontation of problems as they would death. For some it is actually a death of their familiar ways - even while inappropriate and destructive. The choice is theirs ... how to seek and locate solutions...

I am the door - I open it and show them the library or maps of the paths available....or even ones which have to be newly plowed by them for themselves.....

There is nothing leading about the process - only the showing where the door is located - within themselves.

The goodbye is the most thrilling moment of my work.... when they need me no more and become their own explorers.
Last edited by Curiosity; Oct 18th, 2007 at 09:04 AM..
 
Curiosity
Avatar
#17
China a personal note .... when I am dreaming of things I wish would happen.... I often seen China sitting on a bench at one of the beaches in California gazing out at the water.... and I know it is you - China - and go up to you and say - I am Curiosity - will you spend time talking to me?

Then I would be able to read your eyes and face and hear the timbre of your voice - words on a screen are cumbersome. I want you to know how much your words have eased my journey this past year....in so many ways. Thank you for things you will never know about.
 
china
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#18
And I would probably say .....,I don't know what I would say but I'm still happy.
Thanks for the above posts , Love China
 
MikeyDB
#19
Curio and China....

Curio...

I appreciate what you're saying with respect to therapeutic intervention, but the topical issue is fragmented thinking and in that narrow window of consideration, I believe China's thesis is both accurate and insightful.

Consider: An entirely hypothetical issue:

An adult or a child in today's psychological "climate"....

Males are offered social roles that both anticipate and correlate to gender specificity...as are females encouraged and thinking sculpted to a similar degee. The 'image' the 'way' a young male human being's perceptions and relationship to society is shaped, reinforces and entrenches sterotypical attitudes and "goals". Gender role is defined from birth, and expectations both familial expectations and societal expectations follow the well-worn route of traditional/cultural conditioning to replicate the mores ideals and values of society as a whole. We expect and subtly demand that males behave with less availability to overt display of emotional states. From the time a youngster is old enough to manage their time with some degree of independence, the message is that "big boys don't cry", a "man" regards this circumstance...thus and so, there is an overwhelming pressure to conform to roles and behaviors that satisfy and concretize gender bias. Hockey baseball, basketball, "extreme-sports", the need for peer acceptance in a climate of strenuous physical activity makes any advantage, the advantage of superior physical ability delivered through anabolic steroids as example appealing to the youngster who is told that "winning" "success" and "popularity" proceeding from the arena or stadium will translate into wealth power and influence after the game is over.

The level of competativeness and willingness to self-damage in the name of winning, in the name of school support/pride, the triggers for manipulating the individual to the will of the more powerful (even symbolically) social concept is well documented. "Heroes" are made in grid-iron defined stadiums and hardwood coliseums, popularity and opportunity will come to he (or she) who can demonstrate particular selflessness in the name of the "team" in the name of the "school", the impetus to place these symbols and archetypes ahead of personal well-being cultivates a sense of service-to and "faith-in" the social constructs that the youngster will contact long after school is over.

Social and gender roles are defined not on the basis of caring for each other or for co-operative effort to achieve a particular "end", but are vigorously focused on personal achievement and "rising above" the people around you involved in the same effort.

Is a person taking "drugs" because their coach their dean and perhaps the scouting agent in the stands watching for a level of performance that can be translated into ticket sales down the road?

Is the person exhibiting dissociative behavior, or is it simply that hours spent in the weight-room or on the jogging track are means to an "end"?

There's a great deal going on in our societies that have little to do with personal "success" that isn't measured in some metric of exclusive personal achievement, whether that's big salaries and bonuses or its "leadership" as sought-after by corporations and big-business....

When a therapist is asked to address some issue some behavior, is the expectation that the therapist will "convince" the individual that the selflessness of their role as child-care worker, chief cook and bottle washer, house-cleaner and transportation master to a household of multi-faceted and "divided" personalities as her husband her son and her daughter, is the "rewarding" conformity desired by society or is it more likely that this person will regard their self-sacrifice as the wonderful gift it is to children and family? Where is the emphasis placed and why?
 
darkbeaver
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#20
Fragmentation? Does that result from complexity of choice? How can we fit healthily into a system that isn't healthy?
Last edited by darkbeaver; Oct 18th, 2007 at 12:18 PM..
 
MikeyDB
#21
For successive generations, priests politicians and other significant agents of appeal to conformity and the status quo compel our children and our adults to regard their existence as seperate from and often at "odds" with the overarching well-being and "prosperity" of the society/population as a whole.

Professionals (therapists, psychologists, psychiatrists) are in many respects the "gate-keepers" of a societies cultural self-definition. This can frequently cause difficulties particularly when "mental health" is described as "role affiliation" and social/religious "duty".

North Americans have fixed taboos throughout our societies in terms of what behaviors are accpetable and which aren't, that are hold-overs from earlier generations that held maintained and elevated "religious" thinking and morals emerging through religious ideation and identification. The western taboo regarding nakedness and language regarded as appropriate or otherwise when it comes to talking to youngsters and people in general regardless of their chronological age, regarding sex and sexuality supplies boundaries and limitations to communications. Similarly, passionately held religious beliefs that were once used to consolidate a tribes claim to land or "right" to particualar behavior is foundational in expression of and investigation of radical fundamentalism.

Our preparedness to adopt and embrace "values" for which there are no reasonable grounds expresses as vulnerability to marketing and advertising....God isn't dead he's merely been replaced by Madison Avenue.

I'm sorry to ramble on, but the complexity of the human condition isn't fully comprehended or appreciated until a beginning grasp a fundamental understanding of the interrelatedness of all life and all being is undertaken.

It's easy asking "simple" questions, the "answers" to these simple questions are however extremely complicated and demand a way of thinking and a perspective that rejects limitation and linear processing.

Either you get it or you don't....
 
MikeyDB
#22
Quote: Originally Posted by darkbeaverView Post

Fragmentation? Does that result from complexity of choice? How can we fit healthily into a system that isn't healthy?

Hey beve How's it goin eh...

Complexity of choice is one facet of the connundrum, the intent is another. We are encouraged to believe that "choice" and its companion "variety" are hallmarks of "freedom". Notions like responsibility to ones family, social responsibilities and simply "fitting-in" are all conditional concepts in our postmodern reality.

We have to perhaps examine the idea of "healthy" in terms of cultures and societies before we can assess the relative "fit" of the individual within that reality.
 
darkbeaver
Avatar
#23
Quote: Originally Posted by MikeyDBView Post

Hey beve How's it goin eh...

Complexity of choice is one facet of the connundrum, the intent is another. We are encouraged to believe that "choice" and its companion "variety" are hallmarks of "freedom". Notions like responsibility to ones family, social responsibilities and simply "fitting-in" are all conditional concepts in our postmodern reality.

We have to perhaps examine the idea of "healthy" in terms of cultures and societies before we can assess the relative "fit" of the individual within that reality.

It's going Mickey. I have read that our cultural/social developement cannot and has not kept pace with our technological developement. This was rendered as being like running very new complex hardware(our civilization) with very old software (our minds), in other words human developement itself is or may be incapable of following the science step for step and the attempt to do so has become todays prime source of fragmentation. Specialization to enable participation further fragments. The snowball may be in free fall. I would say that the intent of complexity of choice is purpose built to obscure reality which cannot be addressed today without necessary illusion.
When we deal with human limits and fits in todays culture of individuality I think those who do not feel the discomfort of the fit are the ones who need help not those who find it distastefull and uncomfortable and destructive.
Last edited by darkbeaver; Oct 18th, 2007 at 01:09 PM..
 
MikeyDB
#24
Hey Beve!

You may be right, but what part of modernities abandonment of principles has more impact on future generations?

While "science" can describe and offer explanation for phenomena and events, the complexion of a consuming society is vulnerable to manipulation. We celebrate our "freedom", in particular our "four-wheel-freedom" and forget that there is a price for that freedom that's being paid by many more people than just us. We forget that that nice cup of coffee we get at Tim Horton's, the beans that made that coffee were harvested by someone earning a dollar a day.....

When we "believe" that our consumption and our activities don't have impact on the world we could all believe that nations and citizens are somehow not interconnected and related and that's been the strategy of Madison avenue and the corporate juggernaut for decades. To seperate us from our humanity turning us into consumers first and "ideologues" second....
 
darkbeaver
Avatar
#25
Quote: Originally Posted by MikeyDBView Post

Hey Beve!

You may be right, but what part of modernities abandonment of principles has more impact on future generations?

While "science" can describe and offer explanation for phenomena and events, the complexion of a consuming society is vulnerable to manipulation. We celebrate our "freedom", in particular our "four-wheel-freedom" and forget that there is a price for that freedom that's being paid by many more people than just us. We forget that that nice cup of coffee we get at Tim Horton's, the beans that made that coffee were harvested by someone earning a dollar a day.....

When we "believe" that our consumption and our activities don't have impact on the world we could all believe that nations and citizens are somehow not interconnected and related and that's been the strategy of Madison avenue and the corporate juggernaut for decades. To seperate us from our humanity turning us into consumers first and "ideologues" second....

Modernitys abandonment of principles has been wholesale, all accross the board the same twisting of truth is applied in the service of consumption I think. When we can't even accomodate the truth of the cost of our freedom to the rest of the planet how can a few sessions with the psycdocs and a handfull of drugs act as a corrective? It can't, it's not even designed to do that, it's designed to serve the corporation not the human. Drugs and psycdoc therapy cure nothing ,without prevention the need for intervention will get more and more common but if that stopgap commercial approach pays it's way in the sale of drugs and expertise will it ever end? Once the particular market has established life of it's own there is no mechanism to stop it. It becomes self perpetuating.
 
MikeyDB
#26
I think you're right, but that's a condemnation of everything "capitalist" "democratic" and "supply side economics" isn't it?

How can the attitude and practices of a consumer society that sits self-satisfied with its "prosperity" celebrate the poverty and injustice that very "prosperity" engenders?

From trillions sent to Saudi Arabia to sweatshops and slaves picking coffee beans....who's responsible?
 
Curiosity
Avatar
#27
Mikey - I'm gonna shortchange your good messages yesterday and the questions you asked me.... am running off schedule this morning, am worn out and want to spend more time considering all the queries you made in the two long posts about gender specific issues and how to cope in our modern world of insistence on conformity. Your questions should be asked by the general public, whether there are answers I do not know - the disciplines are all over the map and I am not familiar with all of them.

They are good topics and ones which we can no doubt do our own homework and investigation in finding our way out of situations which are non-productive - or conversely learn to accept situations in which we can find no alternative - ease the frustration in favor of acceptance.

I'd like to come back later and go through some thoughts with you but you carry a huge cannon of challenges, I don't want to slide by them as they are important and valid.

In my world the following would be a likely situation. It is not one in which I participated, but was witness in a learning process to the steps taken to relieve two boys of an incident wherein they were trapped by parental dysfunction, hate and eventual murder.

Two boys one two years younger ages 12 and 14 were living with their separated mother, still have contact with their dad who lived nearby and the boys enjoyed close relationships - idolatry and worship of the manly dad, empathy and love and caretaking for the alcoholic mom who prostituted herself for money to keep the family afloat - at least it seemed her most obvious talent for her idea of earning money. Mom kept her boys clean, tidy, well mannered, on time for school and activities...all seemed as normal as it could be regardless of her strange choice of occupation.

One day after school mom met with the boys and asked the older one to shoot his father for her - using a shotgun still in the garage which dad had left behind when he took his possessions. The older boy was stunned and for a week avoided responding until the mother badgered him into an answer - he responded "no" he would not shoot his father - he could not and even though he loved his mother he also loved his father. That intial week of trying to please mother and injuring father pushed the boy into an unreality of thought (fragmented) because he had nothing in his learning process about killing a beloved person...for another beloved person.

He stuck with his negative answer, and the responsibility fell to the younger son. He was weaker and had fewer decision-making abilities having lived only twelve years, so consequences were not at the forefront of his cognitive thinking and processing.

After school on a Friday, he took the gun disassembled in a backpack, went to his dad's house and waited to have dinner at dad's which was not an unusual behavior for either of them. After dinner and chat and television watching, the boy went into his and his brother's bedroom at dad's house and reassembled the firearm... he returned to the living room where dad was watching television and shot him at close range in the head. He then picked up the phone and called his brother at the mother's house to come and help him "clean dad's head off the wall just to the side of the sofa where dad had been sitting"..... he was cold, matter-of-fact but needed his brother to help because he hadn't considered the mess and what products would be needed to clean up the living room.

His thinking didn't even go beyond the thought of being 'caught' - only that the living room was a mess and he was responsible for the mess. That was the deepest of his cognition - the magnitude of the act was beyond his comprehension.

Not the elder - who arrived, helped him clean up the mess - a forensic mess - took his young brother home by walking calmly throught he streets and then returned to the father's house to call the police and confess.

After the hearings when the facts started to come out neither boy was jailed but were remanded to facilities for evalution and determination what the best outcome would be for them.

The treatment plan allowed the two to understand the enormity of the act, allowed them slowly to feel the catastrophe of it, taking of a life, of a beloved father's life, and finally the story (two stories) of the truth emerged. There was/still is a long road of recovery because as the boys aged, the consequences and realization of what had happened weighed them down, now at the pre-adult stage when responsibility and ownership have to be claimed and understood.

Their mother was eventually charged as the primary instigator and whether the two boys are reaching mental health or have found excellent ways around the system by now to circumvent work they are either bored with or wish to get past and back into the real world (if they ever can).... I do not know.

These stories aren't ones of class disruption or inappropriate activity in school settings, or even alcoholism leading to traffic violations, these are life-changing events happening to otherwise healthy minds, functioning well, underdeveloped as to age and learning, being thrust into a volcano of
horror most humans would be unable to climb out of. I think their youth and optimism is going to save them.

Someone has to understand how to pick up the pieces with the damaged person - yes?
 
MikeyDB
#28
Indeed and a Herculean effort awaits anyone who undertakes this issue.

This anecdote provides examples of exactly what I'm talking about. The therapist and the police and the social agencies involved in this terrible situation are product of the social construct of the times and the maelstrom of competing "climates" of thought that swirl around us. I will assume that the "parent"is now actively involved in some process with professional input that can help her understand contributions she made to creating the horrific dynamic.

As I'm confident you're well aware, biological imperatives binding children to their mother/father regardless of the emotional and psychological dynamic emerging from that interrelationship are rarely impacted by external mechanisms. We accept at one level that while the youngsters school attendance and social comportment were "acceptable" that the emotional and psychological environment within the home were toxic. Our social perspective and our recognition of the positive role that can be a part of a healthy familial environment in effect limits our ability to timely assessment of decaying moral and social value constructs within that relationship. Clearly with no or very little opportunity to assess the dysfunctional mom, two youngsters were placed in harms way. We celebrate the protection of the social order but have no means to involve agencies or care-givers into situations like the one you've described. If the children had been involved in criminal behavior, if the mom had been arrested for prostitution, if the "dad" had paid greater attention to the decaying circumstances within the home of his children.....

But this and so many other avenues to interdicting the cascade of terrible events weren't available.

Many questions.

Should there be a mechanism within the education system, within local government, within any social structure be given the authority to assess the "well-being" of this family unit? Could there have been indications that mom was somehow able to afford something her stated income wouldn't reasonably permit..... was there no effort on the part of the school to contact the father and include him in discussions and examinations of his children's progress.....

Does our willingness to "protect at all costs" the sanctity of the home and preserve one's "right" to privacy translate into keeping abreast of situations that decay to the point where an entire family loses their lives? Dad "got off easy" in some respects, those kids will live with the situation created and for which neither is ultimately responsible in any way shape or form, but mom will now perhaps recieve the support she needed before the situation decayed to the point it did.

My concern is that society will and has and will always be faced with failures in parenting, failures in marriage and failures in any social construct because the bottom line here is that the individual and not the society is the most important element under law and in the minds of everyone. Individuals conflicted by the interrelationship of an independent individual consciousness bound to a collective ....

Do I want "big-brother" managing my life or the lives of any other human being? Absolutely not!

Do I want an avenue a means of offering help and support to families that are "missed" because the mechanisms we employ to guage relative "social health" are currently inadequate to that task? Yes absolutely!

It's been a plea long heard in courtrooms and treatment facilities that only when a situation degrades to the point of coming to the attention of the courts (school attendance, petty criminality) or the "social agencies" is help of any kind made available to those experiencing critical issues, and until we re-evaluate the dynamic things will probably stay the same.

We have had no qualms about demonizing tobacco users, and drunk-driving although still an issue has recieved sufficient exposure to characterize it as a social evil, but our unwillingness to broach the walls of a dysfunctional environment where kids (everyone) are potentially at risk remains a boundary not crossed by our societies.....the societies that will incidentally pick up the tab on these kinds of horrors for years and perhaps generations to come....
 

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