#31
Re: Do we need this language law?
Nov 18th, 2008Quote: Originally Posted by scratch
Do I have to get a vasectomy reversal or should I just lie to the woman?db,
That's the only way to do it.
scratch
2068 others browsing the Canadian Forums! Join us!Do we need this language law?
| View Poll Results: I'm a resident of Ontario and I would | |||
| suport the law proposed here, or some similar law. |
   
|
3 | 50.00% |
| oppose this or any similar law. |
  
|
0 | 0% |
| Other answer |
  
|
3 | 50.00% |
| Voters: 6. You may not vote on this poll | |||
#32
Re: Do we need this language law?
Nov 18th, 2008Quote: Originally Posted by scratch
...and do not forget biculturalism is fully attached to this.The discussion about a second language.
I have a very important question for you:
When you are writing in French or speaking French, are you thinking in English and then translating, because if you are you are not bilingual, you are just pretending to be.
My advice to you, leave it alone for you shall never win.
scratch
scratch
#33
Re: Do we need this language law?
Nov 19th, 2008Quote: Originally Posted by Risus
Welcome to Canada, Risus. Where have you been all these decades?I don't believe anyone in Ontario should be forced to learn french. Period. You will NEVER see teaching English being manditory in Quebec...
English has been compulsory across Quebec for a number of decades already.
#34
Re: Do we need this language law?
Nov 19th, 2008Quote: Originally Posted by scratch
I don't know who you're referring to, but if it's me, it's hard to answer that question simply.The discussion about a second language.
I have a very important question for you:
When you are writing in French or speaking French, are you thinking in English and then translating, because if you are you are not bilingual, you are just pretending to be.
My advice to you, leave it alone for you shall never win.
scratch
If I'm just chatting, I'll be thinking in the language. But if I'm writing a formal letter, I'll be analysing the grammar and checking on the spelling much more carefully. But since I do this in any language, would this suggest that I don't know a single language fluently?
I'd just say that I'm less conscious if I'm chatting, but more careful on formal occasions. Same for French and English.
#35
Re: Do we need this language law?
Nov 19th, 2008Quote: Originally Posted by Scott Free
And I'm one of them. Could you imagine if we decriminalized random killing?I'm sure your right actually. People seem to think laws make them safer, protect them or something... I'm not sure why they think that but their fears play right into the hands of the power elite IMO.
#36
Re: Do we need this language law?
Nov 19th, 2008Quote: Originally Posted by scratch
That's one of the greatest benefits of learning a second language. But this benefit comes only if you learn the second language well....and do not forget biculturalism is fully attached to this.
scratch
To just be able to introduce yourself and maybe buy some fruits doesn't count as bilingualism, and certainly not biculturalism.
#37
Re: Do we need this language law?
Nov 19th, 2008Quote: Originally Posted by scratch
Well that clears thing up a bit. In that case, why even bother with polite? They'll never be satisfied anyhow. Schools teach "lawyer French". Local slangs and dialects vary from one family, field and village to the next everywhere. Losing the language? It's already long goneThe discussion about a second language.
I have a very important question for you:
When you are writing in French or speaking French, are you thinking in English and then translating, because if you are you are not bilingual, you are just pretending to be.
My advice to you, leave it alone for you shall never win.
scratch
#38
Re: Do we need this language law?
Nov 19th, 2008Quote: Originally Posted by lone wolf
Ergo lone,Well that clears thing up a bit. In that case, why even bother with polite? They'll never be satisfied anyhow. Schools teach "lawyer French". Local slangs and dialects vary from one family, field and village to the next everywhere. Losing the language? It's already long gone
The reason why the laws in Quebec to protect the language are so strict and untouchable.
scratch
#39
Re: Do we need this language law?
Nov 19th, 2008Quote: Originally Posted by darkbeaver
Well, the idea I'm proposing wouldn't ban schools from making a second language compulsory, but would make it a precondition that the school prove that it can guarantee a decent rate of success before it be allowed to do so. Right now, the vast majority of students are failing to learn their second language.I see what you're describing as the problem I just have this resentment about not being emersed in french forty-five years ago. Machjo what is the advantage to be gained by not forceing the language instruction?
For example, once a school realizes that it can't guarantee that most of its students will succeed in French, it would find itself forced into one of three options:
1. Just leave it up to the students to decide whether or not to learn a second language.
2. offer easier language options. For example, is sign language easier? I don't know, but if so, mabe that could be an option. What languages do students learn at home? maybe the school could promote more teacher-parent collaboration in achieving bilingualism by exploiting the family or local environment. Etc. I'm sure there are plenty of ideas, but while French might be too difficult for a student, maybe the school could guarantee success in some other language, and so compel students to learn that language.
3. Spend more money. Just provide more funding to ensure that students will succeed in English.
Any of these three options would be an improvment over forcing students to learn French wihtout being able to guarantee a reasonable rate of success. After all, what's the use of learning a language just to fail to learn it?
#40
Re: Do we need this language law?
Nov 19th, 2008
Machjo,
Your quest is admirable.
How about Spanish over French? How about Arabic over French? How about German or Latin over French?
Which will be more useful?
Or just say the hell with it for there is no support, not in Ontario anyway!
Your quest is admirable.
How about Spanish over French? How about Arabic over French? How about German or Latin over French?
Which will be more useful?
Or just say the hell with it for there is no support, not in Ontario anyway!
#41
Re: Do we need this language law?
Nov 19th, 2008Quote: Originally Posted by scratch
Why not? In BC you can choose from seven languages:Machjo,
Your quest is admirable.
How about Spanish over French? How about Arabic over French? How about German or Latin over French?
Which will be more useful?
Or just say the hell with it for there is no support, not in Ontario anyway!
Mandarin, Arabic, Russian, German, Japanese, Spanish, and French. So why not Ontario?
#42
Re: Do we need this language law?
Nov 19th, 2008
Machjo,
How well to do really know Ontario?
Yours to discover - sure-- but discover what?
scratch
How well to do really know Ontario?
Yours to discover - sure-- but discover what?
scratch
#43
Re: Do we need this language law?
Nov 19th, 2008Quote: Originally Posted by scratch
How well do I know Ontario? On what front. That's a wide open question. Some points I know, some I don't.Machjo,
How well to do really know Ontario?
Yours to discover - sure-- but discover what?
scratch
I know that here in Ottawa knowing French and English is highly useful to get a job. I'm lucky in that sence. But I'm not sure of the object f your question so I can only guess. And I'm guessing that what you're getting at is that French is by far the most useful second language in Ontario. I'm not disputing that. If that is what you were getting at, then I must counter that French is useful only for those who can learn it well, and statistics are not too promissing on that front.
Now as for the claim that few Ontarians would go with the idea, I'm inclined to agree with you, and on that point I'm perplexed. On the one hand, I'm inclined to agree with you that most Ontarians would rather maintain the current policy of compulsory French across the board and accept the majority failure rather than seek out alternative options to increase the rate of success in bilingualism by offering alternative language options. On the other hand, I can't understand why they would believe that it's a wise investment of taxpayers' money.
The most perplexing thing to me is that if so many view spending years to learn a smattering of French rather than another language well, then clearly there is something I don't understand. I could be wrong (and please correct me if I am), but it would seem to me to be more useful to learn a less spoken language well than to speak a widely spoken language poorly. After all, how far can we get if all we can do is introduce ourselves and that's it?
#44
Re: Do we need this language law?
Nov 19th, 2008
My Dear Machjo,
You unfortunately missed my first point.
Ontario is a large province .
You cannot restrict yourself to the Ottawa area.
You have to have travelled the entire province to get a good take on what you are trying to promote.
Quebec and New Brunswick have English and French as their official languages.
I would say that since federally the official languages of this country are English and French. French is your choice. It is not an introductory language. It is spoken widely across the country.
Ontario does not like it because they claim it is too difficult to learn and if they did what purpose what it serve.
Poor Ontario, yours to discover and you had better!
You unfortunately missed my first point.
Ontario is a large province .
You cannot restrict yourself to the Ottawa area.
You have to have travelled the entire province to get a good take on what you are trying to promote.
Quebec and New Brunswick have English and French as their official languages.
I would say that since federally the official languages of this country are English and French. French is your choice. It is not an introductory language. It is spoken widely across the country.
Ontario does not like it because they claim it is too difficult to learn and if they did what purpose what it serve.
Poor Ontario, yours to discover and you had better!
#45
Re: Do we need this language law?
Nov 19th, 2008Quote: Originally Posted by Machjo
There are some notable exceptions. If you head to eastern Ontario, you'll find many French only speakers. Same if you head to the western part of Montreal (the West Island), it's full of English only speakers. Folks learn the langauge based on the area they live in, plain and simple. There is no need to force learning a second language if you will not use it.And by the way, for those of you who think this is just some franco-phobic rant, Je suis francophone moi meme, et je suis certainement pret a debatre ce point en francais aussi. Ce n'est qu'une question d'investissement efficace de temp et d'argent dans nos ecoles.
I'd be more than happy to discuss this issue in either French or English. And before anyone accuses me of double standards, I'b be all in favour of a similar law for Quebec, where statistics indicate that they're experiencing an equally miserable rate of success in English.
And before you point to Europe as some kind of model for bilingualism, statistics there are worse, with only about 6% of Western Europeans able to fuction fully in English, according to a 2001 poll.
#46
Re: Do we need this language law?
Nov 19th, 2008Quote: Originally Posted by scratch
I'd suggest you step beyond Quebec before you pass your judgements. There are a great many French communities in Ontario - all of whom receive services in French or English. Northern Ontario is of predominantly French character. See - we don't have to force a language or culture on anyone and that's why we don't have the English/French animosity that seems to be the driving force elsewhere.My Dear Machjo,
You unfortunately missed my first point.
Ontario is a large province .
You cannot restrict yourself to the Ottawa area.
You have to have travelled the entire province to get a good take on what you are trying to promote.
Quebec and New Brunswick have English and French as their official languages.
I would say that since federally the official languages of this country are English and French. French is your choice. It is not an introductory language. It is spoken widely across the country.
Ontario does not like it because they claim it is too difficult to learn and if they did what purpose what it serve.
Poor Ontario, yours to discover and you had better!
Language, Heritage and Religion - People and Culture - About Ontario (Government of Ontario, Canada)
#47
Re: Do we need this language law?
Nov 20th, 2008Quote: Originally Posted by lone wolf
Interesting statistic.I'd suggest you step beyond Quebec before you pass your judgements. There are a great many French communities in Ontario - all of whom receive services in French or English. Northern Ontario is of predominantly French character. See - we don't have to force a language or culture on anyone and that's why we don't have the English/French animosity that seems to be the driving force elsewhere.
Language, Heritage and Religion - People and Culture - About Ontario (Government of Ontario, Canada)
French is spoken at home by almost 490,000 people, and Chinese by 409,000. Wouldn't this sugest that Ontario would depend on a much wider field of internaitonal tade than Quebec? Certainly allowing students to choose their second language could help to increase the rate of bilingualism in the province (instead of learning poor French at school and only colloquial Chinese at school, neither of which would be extremely useful to him, an Onarian of Chinese descent could learn colloquial Chinese at home and ideographs at school, of much greater usefulness), and thus allow Ontarians to build new international commercial, scientific, cultural, and other relations.
I'd lived in Toronto and Kitchener years ago, and found that French is of practically no use in Kitchener and highly useful for certain jobs in Toronto. But even in Toronto, I never heard French on the street; it seemed to be limited to my working environment, dealing with customers from across the nation.
But what about international companies? While I was working for pan-national companies (where French is particularly useful), certainly international companies would need a much wider range of language skills, no?
#49
Re: Do we need this language law?
Nov 20th, 2008
By the way, I don't see why this could not apply to Quebec too.
After all, a French-speaker living in Quebec city and whose parents know Arabic but no English, for example, would probably have a higher chance of success if he could learn Arabic as his second language at school instead of English.
After all, a French-speaker living in Quebec city and whose parents know Arabic but no English, for example, would probably have a higher chance of success if he could learn Arabic as his second language at school instead of English.
#50
Re: Do we need this language law?
Nov 20th, 2008
Sorry,
Big time wrong.
Stay away from Quebec or go there and stay for six months or more and see how well you do.
I am all for your quest and I understand what you are attempting to do, get all your facts and actual experiences together and then plead your case.
I sincerely wish you the best.
Regards,
scratch
Big time wrong.
Stay away from Quebec or go there and stay for six months or more and see how well you do.
I am all for your quest and I understand what you are attempting to do, get all your facts and actual experiences together and then plead your case.
I sincerely wish you the best.
Regards,
scratch
#51
Re: Do we need this language law?
Nov 20th, 2008
Sorry Scratch. I didn't mean that many in Quebec would go for it (I think they're quite convinced of the value of English even if all they can do is say hello in the language), at least not in the near future. What I meant was simply that it would seem to make more sence. That's all.
Quote: Originally Posted by scratch
Sorry,
Big time wrong.
Stay away from Quebec or go there and stay for six months or more and see how well you do.
I am all for your quest and I understand what you are attempting to do, get all your facts and actual experiences together and then plead your case.
I sincerely wish you the best.
Regards,
scratch
#52
Re: Do we need this language law?
Nov 20th, 2008
Machjo,
This is something that you need to know.
It is extremely important.
Francophones (Quebec) speak better English than Ontarioans.
Never forget that. And it will always be that way.
This is something that you need to know.
It is extremely important.
Francophones (Quebec) speak better English than Ontarioans.
Never forget that. And it will always be that way.
#53
Re: Do we need this language law?
Nov 20th, 2008
Now this is interesting. I'd lived in Charlevoix for one school year. Yes, I know. By now you're probaly thinking 'Where the hell hasn't he lived?'. Well, why I've moved around so much like a ping pong ball is a story for another day, and no I'm not wanted by the police, before you ask.
Anyway, from my experiences there and in other places that I'd visited, including Quebec City and Robervalle, I'd have to disagree with you. Yes it's true that the rate of success for English is better in Quebec than for French in Ontario, probably owing to more investment in this field, both in time and money, on the part of Quebec society in general. However, this does not mean that they all succeed in learning English. I can only count myself lucky that I was fluent in French, otherwise I'd have had lots of difficulties in Quebec. Outside the Vieux Quebec, few in the city were truly functional in English beyod giving me instructions to get somewhere in extremely broken English. yes, that might be better than the average for French in Otawa, but still not particularly useful beyond the mundane, like giving directions to a place.
In Charlevoix, unless you went to the Casino de Charlevoix, you could kiss English goodbye. About the only people in town who knew English well were some workers at the Casino and the local English teachers (and except for two of them, yes, their English was impressive to say the least). But as for the rest of the community, beyond a few phrases to show off their English, not much. And certainly you're not going to tell me that millions of dollars in government investment and possibly just as many millions of hours in time is a wise investment of society's time and money just so that they can show off, but not really communicate!
In Roberval, same as Charlevoix, except for a few persons in the tourist industry because many hunters went up there from the US and other parts of Canada.
I'm more travelled than you might give me credit for, and I will tell you that the bilingualism in Quebec is not much more impressive than it is in Ontario. Just as Ottawa doesn't represent Ontario, so Montreal (and I lived there too for over a year by the way) doesn't represent Quebec. And I'll tell you that most fail to learn English (again Montreal is an exception because it truly is a bilingual city where you pretty well need to be bilingual to work as a burger flipper at McDonald's). Here are the statistics (--):
Out of 7,435,905 persons living in Quebec (2006), 4,010,880 know French but not English. Yet when we consider that English is compulsory acros the province, we can reasonably assume that those who do not know English have failed to learn it. This would mean that about 54% know French but not English. That would be a 46% failure rate! Now of course these are rough estimates because not all in Quebec have finished their highschool, and some might have studied outside of Quebec, etc. But this still gives a rough idea, and it's not an impressive report card to say the least: seems to confirm my own observations on the ground.
Son Ontario and Quebec are not that different after all, as far as statistics tell. And remember, these statistics are based on self-assessment, and not rigid tests, and also that Quebec has many native English-speakers too, like ontario French speakers, and that helps in learning the language too.
Anyway, from my experiences there and in other places that I'd visited, including Quebec City and Robervalle, I'd have to disagree with you. Yes it's true that the rate of success for English is better in Quebec than for French in Ontario, probably owing to more investment in this field, both in time and money, on the part of Quebec society in general. However, this does not mean that they all succeed in learning English. I can only count myself lucky that I was fluent in French, otherwise I'd have had lots of difficulties in Quebec. Outside the Vieux Quebec, few in the city were truly functional in English beyod giving me instructions to get somewhere in extremely broken English. yes, that might be better than the average for French in Otawa, but still not particularly useful beyond the mundane, like giving directions to a place.
In Charlevoix, unless you went to the Casino de Charlevoix, you could kiss English goodbye. About the only people in town who knew English well were some workers at the Casino and the local English teachers (and except for two of them, yes, their English was impressive to say the least). But as for the rest of the community, beyond a few phrases to show off their English, not much. And certainly you're not going to tell me that millions of dollars in government investment and possibly just as many millions of hours in time is a wise investment of society's time and money just so that they can show off, but not really communicate!
In Roberval, same as Charlevoix, except for a few persons in the tourist industry because many hunters went up there from the US and other parts of Canada.
I'm more travelled than you might give me credit for, and I will tell you that the bilingualism in Quebec is not much more impressive than it is in Ontario. Just as Ottawa doesn't represent Ontario, so Montreal (and I lived there too for over a year by the way) doesn't represent Quebec. And I'll tell you that most fail to learn English (again Montreal is an exception because it truly is a bilingual city where you pretty well need to be bilingual to work as a burger flipper at McDonald's). Here are the statistics (--):
Out of 7,435,905 persons living in Quebec (2006), 4,010,880 know French but not English. Yet when we consider that English is compulsory acros the province, we can reasonably assume that those who do not know English have failed to learn it. This would mean that about 54% know French but not English. That would be a 46% failure rate! Now of course these are rough estimates because not all in Quebec have finished their highschool, and some might have studied outside of Quebec, etc. But this still gives a rough idea, and it's not an impressive report card to say the least: seems to confirm my own observations on the ground.
Son Ontario and Quebec are not that different after all, as far as statistics tell. And remember, these statistics are based on self-assessment, and not rigid tests, and also that Quebec has many native English-speakers too, like ontario French speakers, and that helps in learning the language too.
Quote: Originally Posted by scratch
Machjo,
This is something that you need to know.
It is extremely important.
Francophones (Quebec) speak better English than Ontarioans.
Never forget that. And it will always be that way.
#54
Re: Do we need this language law?
Nov 20th, 2008Quote: Originally Posted by scratch
...which would indicate they who ignore an Anglais because he dared to speak it in their presence are twice as arrogant as I first thought them. I certainly prefer the mannerly Francophone here.Machjo,
This is something that you need to know.
It is extremely important.
Francophones (Quebec) speak better English than Ontarioans.
Never forget that. And it will always be that way.
#55
Re: Do we need this language law?
Nov 20th, 2008
Nothing worse than hearing someone elses voice over the original.Said again and again and again.....Babblin' on and on!!...Voice overs are annoying except in ol' japanese movies!//lol...Sorry what was the question??/I was babblin!...
#56
Re: Do we need this language law?
Dec 3rd, 2008
I don't think anyone should be forced to learn a language if they do want to learn a language if they don't want too. They should also be allowed to choose the language instead of being forced into learning french.
When i was in high school I had to take 2 years of Foreign Language to graduate, but at least I was able to choose the language I wanted to learn, which made it easier for me to learn. (note I went to school in the states and i'm from the states, but I'm living in Canada).
When i was in high school I had to take 2 years of Foreign Language to graduate, but at least I was able to choose the language I wanted to learn, which made it easier for me to learn. (note I went to school in the states and i'm from the states, but I'm living in Canada).
#57
Re: Do we need this language law?
Jan 1st, 2009
Im from ontario and the only reason i know some french (enough to get by) is because everyone around me is french lol
#58
Re: Do we need this language law?
Jan 1st, 2009
I support anything that will make our kids learn more languages. Heck if my kids can learn 4 to 6 of them I encourage them. I hope my ex follows thru in putting our son in French emersion in BC as I am French but as he is most of the day with Mom I hardly get to speak French to him. Hopefully this will be the push to get him talking to me in French.
I have yet to see a person die from knowing too many languages..
I have yet to see a person die from knowing too many languages..
#59
Re: Do we need this language law?
Jan 27th, 2009
I'm curious--do the Metis in Manitoba speak the same, similar dialect as residents of Quebec ?
#60
Re: Do we need this language law?
Apr 4th, 2009Quote: Originally Posted by SirFrancis2004
And giving schools the freedom to choose which second language to choose could help increase, not decrease, the rate of bilingualism in Ontario. THis way, schools can take advantage of co-operation with their pupils' parents to exploit the home language in the classroom.I support anything that will make our kids learn more languages.
Similar Threads
2
10
14
5