Just got partial land expropriation notice.

Just got partial land expropriation notice.

AndyF

#1Jan 27th, 2007

I got the snotty letter from the authority's lawyer. No coutesy of legal protocol, just a few words to "come down and sign the deed to the land transfer?.

Looking at the survey plan he enclosed it looks like they want 1/4 of my property. It doesn't look like much on the plan, just 13' past the pin on my property side for road widening, but my property runs 500'.!!!

Looks like I got a big battle. First step I'm getting an appraisal. He made his first mistake, he's supposed to send it registered.

AndyF

Toro

Re: Just got partial land expropriation notice.

Jan 27th, 2007

F*** 'em! Tell the guy to shove his letter up his a**!

Hold out for as much as possible. Threaten to take it to the highest court in the land!

vinod1975

Re: Just got partial land expropriation notice.

Jan 27th, 2007

reply him back with the same language and ask him to send it with proper court notice and demand for compensation for your property loss...

L Gilbert

Re: Just got partial land expropriation notice.

Jan 27th, 2007

I think it's law that they have to give you fair market value. Don't sign anything and see a lawyer, Andy.

Toro

Re: Just got partial land expropriation notice.

Jan 27th, 2007

Go have a meeting with him, and take "Mr. Baseball Bat" to explain the meaning of "fair market value."

vinod1975

Re: Just got partial land expropriation notice.

Jan 27th, 2007

But be polite and patient coz need is your and he is after yuur property and after all law is with him....kick him with love...

L Gilbert

Re: Just got partial land expropriation notice.

Jan 27th, 2007

Quote: Originally Posted by Toro

Go have a meeting with him, and take "Mr. Baseball Bat" to explain the meaning of "fair market value."

What if he doesn't have any bats that play baseball?

vinod1975

Re: Just got partial land expropriation notice.

Jan 28th, 2007

hey gilbert you are too good at pulling legs .....

eh1eh

Re: Just got partial land expropriation notice.

Jan 28th, 2007

Quote: Originally Posted by AndyF

I got the snotty letter from the authority's lawyer. No coutesy of legal protocol, just a few words to "come down and sign the deed to the land transfer?.

Looking at the survey plan he enclosed it looks like they want 1/4 of my property. It doesn't look like much on the plan, just 13' past the pin on my property side for road widening, but my property runs 500'.!!!

Looks like I got a big battle. First step I'm getting an appraisal. He made his first mistake, he's supposed to send it registered.

AndyF

The march of 'progress' will win every time, but I agree with the others. DON'T SIGN ANYTHING". Get a lawyer to look at it. This will take weeks, if you make it take that long. Everyday you wait and delay is a day from their sched. and will drive the price up until they get to 'fair market value'. In Ontario you are being taxed on market value so that is what they should pay.
Maybe you could even try a civil suite to recoup the loss in property value you will experience by having a bigger road by your land.
Good luck

Last edited by eh1eh; Jan 28th, 2007 at 04:00 AM..Reason: speling

vinod1975

#10

Re: Just got partial land expropriation notice.

Jan 28th, 2007

yes m agreed with eh1eh , and again dont sign any paper and on top of when you hire a lawyer and if you win then state has to pay thier fee not - this the way its works here how does this works in your stats no idea

AndyF

#11

Re: Just got partial land expropriation notice.

Jan 28th, 2007

Quote: Originally Posted by L Gilbert

What if he doesn't have any bats that play baseball?

Indeed.

You know I think the US did too good a job cleaning out the mob. Mob systems don't have a place in democratic systems I agree, but what happens when the system itself starts to use mob tactics?

Methinks a few choice friends in appropriate places would do a world of good and send a message.

It's curious but even in war time where conscription and property can be confiscated, a receipt is given so that after the war the person can collect on his contribution of the item. Old Brit common law.

AndyF.

CDNBear

#12

Re: Just got partial land expropriation notice.

Jan 28th, 2007

Quote: Originally Posted by AndyF

Indeed.

You know I think the US did too good a job cleaning out the mob. Mob systems don't have a place in democratic systems I agree, but what happens when the system itself starts to use mob tactics?

Methinks a few choice friends in appropriate places would do a world of good and send a message.

It's curious but even in war time where conscription and property can be confiscated, a receipt is given so that after the war the person can collect on his contribution of the item. Old Brit common law.

AndyF.

Just ask some of the people that were displaced and or put out of their ancestral homes for the defunked Pickering then on again, then off again, Airport, how easy it is to fight this system...

--
--
--

The mob ain't got nothin' on these thugs!

AndyF

#13

Re: Just got partial land expropriation notice.

Jan 28th, 2007

Quote: Originally Posted by eh1eh

The march of 'progress' will win every time, but I agree with the others. DON'T SIGN ANYTHING". Get a lawyer to look at it. This will take weeks, if you make it take that long. Everyday you wait and delay is a day from their sched. and will drive the price up until they get to 'fair market value'. In Ontario you are being taxed on market value so that is what they should pay.
Maybe you could even try a civil suite to recoup the loss in property value you will experience by having a bigger road by your land.
Good luck

No I won't sign. I'll hire an appraiser and get a quote for the market value. Then before my 30 day deadline (week gone by so far, yikes!!) I'll send a reg letter to the Municipal hall and one to the lawyer stating my intent. Then I'll wait to see what happens and action later. Might save a few bucks if I take a few of the lawyer's initial steps anyway, and they may come to their senses factoring the cost to them of legal expenses. The real battle usually doesn't come in the intro.

On the letter I'll start explaining my compensation, then I'll open another paragraph under "Injurous Affection". This stuff is what the expropriation devalues in the property. For instance I'll need to reposition 2 lamp posts. Then I'll want a retaining wall of concrete block since they'll need to dig out the embankment that holds up my driveway since my house sits on the uphill side of road. I'll insist it's maintained by them in perpetuity with no cost to me or future owners. That won't leave much of a driveway anyway. Also the dropoff of the wall creates will create a child hazzard and they'll need to deal with that. I could also mention some winning case files on the issue of not compensating at all thanks to the web and supreme court site and case files. Apparently like one poster here said already, they have to offer some compensation. I'll probably lose some of this, but the compensation I'll hold fast to the best I can.

Interestingly, as an owner that is also a mortgagee, it brings with it a special case. By another law the holder of the mortgage is bound by law, ....get this....., to ensure nothing happens to the property to devalue it or worsen it's state????

So every person has trustee to the morgagor by law has the duty to fight tooth and nail any theft of his property. (Theft by the true definition that is.)

So there's no real choice the way I see it.

All you folks out there who are property owners please check your political candidates to find out what they think about property issues. They may not be on your side, you could be next.

AndyF

eh1eh

#14

Re: Just got partial land expropriation notice.

Jan 28th, 2007

Interestingly, as an owner that is also a mortgagee, it brings with it a special case. By another law the holder of the mortgage is bound by law, ....get this....., to ensure nothing happens to the property to devalue it or worsen it's state???? So every person has trustee to the morgagor by law has the duty to fight tooth and nail any theft of his property. (Theft by the true definition that is.)

Get the bank involved, you're on the right track.

CDNBear

#15

Re: Just got partial land expropriation notice.

Jan 28th, 2007

Andy your in for an up hill battle, my heart goes out to you. Fight the good fight and my you prevail.

temperance

#16

Re: Just got partial land expropriation notice.

Jan 28th, 2007

What letter --lol

not registered not hand delivered and remove this post just in case --lol

That said could you explain "I'm new" or direct me to what happened and why

I noticed a encroachment on the survey of my dearest friend (he just bought a house with some property) he also found out he has Alzheimer's and I'm now signed on to ensure things are OK (power of attorney )living will

AndyF

#17

Re: Just got partial land expropriation notice.

Jan 28th, 2007

Quote: Originally Posted by vinod1975

yes m agreed with eh1eh , and again dont sign any paper and on top of when you hire a lawyer and if you win then state has to pay thier fee not - this the way its works here how does this works in your stats no idea

It does here also, .....sortof.... notwithstanding of course. But the irony is the Authority that decides has overall decision making power. That same Authority is the one that wants your property, and a real example of conflict of interest.

Exp Act 31,32,33 covers that somewhat unclearly and unconvincingly.

32. (1) Where the amount to which an owner is entitled upon an expropriation or claim for injurious affection is determined by the Board and the amount awarded by the Board is 85 per cent, or more, of the amount offered by the statutory authority, the Board shall make an order directing the statutory authority to pay the reasonable legal, appraisal and other costs actually incurred by the owner for the purposes of determining the compensation payable, and may fix the costs in a lump sum or may order that the determination of the amount of such costs be referred to an assessment officer who shall assess and allow the costs in accordance with this subsection and the tariffs and rules prescribed under clause 44 (d). R.S.O. 1990, c. E.26, s. 32 (1).

http://www.e-laws.gov.on.ca/DBLaws/S...e26_e.htm#BK31

AndyF

AndyF

#18

Re: Just got partial land expropriation notice.

Jan 28th, 2007

Quote: Originally Posted by temperance

What letter --lol
not registered not hand delivered and remove this post just in case --lol
That said could you explain "I'm new" or direct me to what happened and why
I noticed a encroachment on the survey of my dearest friend (he just bought a house with some property) he also found out he has Alzheimer's and I'm now signed on to ensure things are OK (power of attorney )living will

Ouch!. Always we need to remind ourselves that others have it worse.

Thanks.

AndyF

temperance

#19

Re: Just got partial land expropriation notice.

Jan 28th, 2007

So basically if you dont fight(get survey)--prove value)
they can take what they want need and give you want they think its worth ,if you dont first pay for survey and legal crap --then get reimbursed -
-What iof you have no money for survey and stuff --up creek not paddle nor hands

I dont remeber voting for this --lol

temperance

#20

Re: Just got partial land expropriation notice.

Jan 28th, 2007

does this sound like what should happen

WHAT IS EXPROPRIATION

Expropriation occurs when a public agency (for example, the provincial government and its agencies, regional districts, municipalities, school boards and utilities) takes property for a purpose deemed to be in the public interest, even though the owner of the property may not be willing to sell it.
WHEN IS A DECISION MADE TO EXPROPRIATE?

Generally property is expropriated only if there is a failure to reach an agreement between the owner and the agency as to the amount to be paid. Even in this case, the owner and the expropriating authority can enter into an agreement to transfer the property leaving only the amount to be paid to be determined by the Supreme Court.
WHAT CAN BE EXPROPRIATED?

Any interest in land and improvements such as buildings, may be expropriated.
WHO ARE THE MAIN PARTIES INVOLVED IN AN EXPROPRIATION?

There are three main parties involved in an expropriation. They are:

The owner(s) of the property.
The expropriating authority — this is the body empowered to expropriate land and includes the provincial government and its agencies, regional districts, municipalities, school boards and utilities. It is the expropriating authority with whom you will initially deal and with whom you will discuss the matter of compensation.
The approving authority — all expropriations must be approved by an elected, politically accountable authority. Municipal councils are politically accountable for municipal expropriations, the Board of School Trustees for expropriations under the School Act, and the Minister responsible for the administration of government legislation in other cases of expropriation.

WHAT ARE THE STEPS IN AN EXPROPRIATION?

Once a decision has been made to expropriate, the steps are as follows:
1. EXPROPRIATION NOTICE: This is the first formal notice you will receive that your property is being considered for expropriation. It must contain the purpose for which expropriation is required. The Act requires that the Notice be:

sent by registered mail to every person having a registered interest in the property, together with a copy of the Act
posted on a sign on the land to be expropriated (or if the land is located outside a municipality, the Notice may be published in a local newspaper); and
filed in the local land title office.

The Expropriation Notice may also be delivered by hand.
You may find it advisable to contact your lawyer upon being officially notified of an expropriation. All reasonable legal costs incurred by you pertaining to the expropriation will, in most circumstances, be reimbursed by the expropriating authority.
2. REQUEST FOR AN INQUIRY: Once the Expropriation Notice has been served, you may request an inquiry to determine whether the proposed expropriation of the land is necessary to achieve the objectives of the expropriation authority, or if the objectives might be better achieved by varying the amount of land taken or using an alternate site. The provision for an inquiry does not apply to "linear developments" which include highways, railways, hydro or other electric transmission/distribution lines, pipelines, sewer, water or drainage lines/mains.
Your request for an inquiry must be made in writing to the Deputy Attorney General (on Form 2), and served on the expropriating authority within 30 days after receiving the Expropriation Notice. The form must contain the following information:

your name, address and telephone number;
the legal description of the land to be expropriated;
the nature of your interest in the land to be expropriated;
the reasons for requesting an inquiry.

Write to:

temperance

#21

Re: Just got partial land expropriation notice.

Jan 28th, 2007

is this whats to happen ?

WHAT IS EXPROPRIATION

Expropriation occurs when a public agency (for example, the provincial government and its agencies, regional districts, municipalities, school boards and utilities) takes property for a purpose deemed to be in the public interest, even though the owner of the property may not be willing to sell it.
WHEN IS A DECISION MADE TO EXPROPRIATE?

Generally property is expropriated only if there is a failure to reach an agreement between the owner and the agency as to the amount to be paid. Even in this case, the owner and the expropriating authority can enter into an agreement to transfer the property leaving only the amount to be paid to be determined by the Supreme Court.
WHAT CAN BE EXPROPRIATED?

Any interest in land and improvements such as buildings, may be expropriated.
WHO ARE THE MAIN PARTIES INVOLVED IN AN EXPROPRIATION?

There are three main parties involved in an expropriation. They are:

The owner(s) of the property.
The expropriating authority — this is the body empowered to expropriate land and includes the provincial government and its agencies, regional districts, municipalities, school boards and utilities. It is the expropriating authority with whom you will initially deal and with whom you will discuss the matter of compensation.
The approving authority — all expropriations must be approved by an elected, politically accountable authority. Municipal councils are politically accountable for municipal expropriations, the Board of School Trustees for expropriations under the School Act, and the Minister responsible for the administration of government legislation in other cases of expropriation.

sent by registered mail to every person having a registered interest in the property, together with a copy of the Act
posted on a sign on the land to be expropriated (or if the land is located outside a municipality, the Notice may be published in a local newspaper); and
filed in the local land title office.

your name, address and telephone number;
the legal description of the land to be expropriated;
the nature of your interest in the land to be expropriated;
the reasons for requesting an inquiry.

Write to:

temperance

#22

Re: Just got partial land expropriation notice.

Jan 28th, 2007

sorry repost

TomG

#23

Re: Just got partial land expropriation notice.

Jan 28th, 2007

Ahh Andy, that’s miserable. My wife and I have gone through it twice in the last seven years. I imagine we know the feelings that you and yours are experiencing very well. There is no adequate compensation for what is felt. There is no fair market value for a person’s life and soul. This is long, but I’m, trying to be helpful. Hope I succeed.

On the bright side we were dealing with the Ministry of Transportation in both cases. The MTO were convinced to change their project plans in each case and we retained our land. In our case we recognized the threats at the stage of the early survey work and took action before projects were fully defined. Many project plans are only one of several acceptable alternatives. The initial design may be selected solely on the basis of the best plan from an engineering prospective. Several alternative plans may be almost as good.

Finding allies is all important. Because we recognized the threats at the stage of preliminary survey work we were able to enlist allies before final designs were selected. We were able to deal with MTO and consultant engineers and management. Unfortunately, by the time you receive a letter the issue is with a property department. The project now likely has a lot of bureaucratic inertia. You won’t likely find the flexibility we experienced. The property people are who you deal with. You are now likely within a property department’s mandate and most other bureaucrats will not tread on another’s mandate. Few managers will overrule their staff.

You should recognize that property’s job is to negotiate the best deal possible for the government. They are negotiators and I’ve heard that the experience is not nice. Just don’t take it personally. That would waste your emotional energy and weaken your efforts. There are things you can do.

The realities of expropriation were summarized pretty well above—especially by Temperance. In the face of the public good individual rights are almost non-existent and the individual is left to deal with the full coercive force and resources of a government. As a negotiation it isn’t a fair fight and the best advice in a fight is never enter one that can’t be won. You can’t win by abusing the property people. It is their job to take abuse and get a good deal for the government. They are professionals and you’ll just waste your time when you should be looking for allies.

Fortunately few bureaucrats want to injure people’s lives. If you can find a reason for them to do something different then there’s a good chance that they will. You should know that junior bureaucratic staff is potentially your ally if you have access to them. Other agencies that have overlapping mandates (especially the municipality) also are potential allies. An environmental assessment might be your ally and so might an old cemetery. There potentially many organized groups that might have an interest in your particular expropriation. Bureaucracies don’t like organized opposition and public noise. The Minister then becomes involved. Your trick is to find some allies and make some noise.

You should know that MTO and I imagine all public agencies have policies that stipulate that compromise of private land is a last resort. If you can show that alternatives exist that lessen the impact on private (and especially residential) property than the agency hasn’t met its own policy guidelines. In our cases the policy idea is what worked for us. In addition, our municipality supported us because a road design would have increased their maintenance costs. In our other case, junior MTO staff supported us. The recommendation for expropriation was to create a work area buffer zone. The land wasn’t actually needed. Bureaucrats generally like doing good works from time to time.

If I was in your situation, I wouldn’t try to go it alone. I’d use every delaying tactic I could think of and use the time to search for allies. If you do end up in negotiations, maybe read up on how to negotiate successfully. Before you start, know what your bottom line is and how you can make trouble for your enemy. Never blink. Don’t waste emotional energy. Never negotiate an alternative where you haven’t defined an outcome that is acceptable to you (acceptable not necessarily pleasant). Always know how you plan to achieve a desired outcome, which means knowing how you plan to inflict discomfort on your enemy. Think of the property person a temporary non-personal enemy. Potential noise and disruption are your tools. Ou have to be absolutely certain that you are willing and capable of inflicting pain if you don’t get your way. Know that in most adversarial contests, the side that is able to control the other side’s movements generally wins, and you do want to win. You have to be completely willing to use the tools at your disposal.

You should know that a bottom line might be claiming the expropriation would make the land unusable for your purposes and force expropriation of the entire property plus compensation for search and sales of a new property and relocation. Fair market value always can be agued—especially since the assessment corporation itself was trashed by the government and assessment values frozen.

Expropriation can get expensive, messy and public for an agency. Such a result is not a successful negotiation from the government’s perspective. Know what your tools are. However avoid negotiation if possible. Most agencies will do something different if there are acceptable alternatives provided a project doesn’t yet have overwhelming inertia. Supply the agency with a reason to do something different that’s within their mandate and you may get a different result. The fact that you don’t want the land expropriated is not a good reason. My brother in law’s bottom line was that he wouldn’t, and he went to court about it. The ‘it’ was a new landfill across the road from some of his vacant land. He won but said the costs weren’t worth it. It’s probably best to consider a less extreme bottom line.

Toro

#24

Re: Just got partial land expropriation notice.

Jan 28th, 2007

Quote: Originally Posted by L Gilbert

What if he doesn't have any bats that play baseball?

They cost $10-$20.

It'd be a good investment.

And good commentary from Tom.

Curiosity

#25

Re: Just got partial land expropriation notice.

Jan 28th, 2007

AndyF

Are you up on eminent domain, easements and mineral rights laws on your particular piece of property?

These should all be with your deed from the purchase and it is boring in small print to deter you but
try to locate the deed and have a look see..... many people don't even know they own only the top
surface of their land and the government owns the rights to all values below a certain level.

I think also a public notice should have been filed in the newspaper regarding seizing of any land in your area for a roadway... check your local planning departments - roads.

If you have a city counsellor or municipal politician....get in touch.... and finally make sure you let someone in the media know what is happening and keep that one special person up to date so they can build a story if all else fails....

If you are still forced to surrender a portion of your land for no compensation, your property taxes should be adjusted accordingly.... and if possible retroactively.

Andy one more thing.... I don't know if you are in that domicile for the remainder of your life as a homeowner, but also consider the financial impact on the loss of whatever square footage (in meters sorry) you are about to experience, thus lowering your property value for future reimbursement. Another bit of leverage in your argument.

Last edited by Curiosity; Jan 28th, 2007 at 10:55 AM..

Curiosity

#26

Re: Just got partial land expropriation notice.

Jan 28th, 2007

TomG - Excellent Post - Lots of good information for Andy..... sorry it had to be from your own personal "front lines" though.... but we all know more from your trials.... appreciate your sharing.

AndyF

#27

Re: Just got partial land expropriation notice.

Jan 28th, 2007

TomG:

Thanks Tom for the heads up.

AndyF

#28

Re: Just got partial land expropriation notice.

Jan 28th, 2007

Quote: Originally Posted by Curiosity

AndyF

I think also a public notice should have been filed in the newspaper regarding seizing of any land in your area for a roadway... check your local planning departments - roads.

Yes there were, but to date these could only be generalities of an overall plan that some property owners would be affected, so I can't act on that. It was a given that some would be affected. My letter was a definite intent to action involving me so that is my starting point.

AndyF

hermanntrude

#29

Re: Just got partial land expropriation notice.

Jan 28th, 2007

if it's anything like UK land laws, you won't have a chance of stopping them, but u might negotiate a decent price

TomG

#30

Re: Just got partial land expropriation notice.

Jan 29th, 2007

Andy:

I re-read your first post. If you are in Ontario, the process described doesn’t match our experiences. Of course I also don’t know what kind of road it is or what is meant by the authority. However, something may be off about the process.

In our case, there were general notices of intended work. The announcements appeared more as information about environmental assessments, and the potential effects on private property were obscure. However, information contacts were identified in several agencies and consulting firms. The first indication that something specific would affect our properties was that survey crews appeared unannounced and started planting stakes and brushing sight lines. At that point, information contacts had been identified . We contacted them, and specifics of the intended work were described to us.

We wrote letters to agencies and our municipality that made our cases for alternative designs. In one case, our municipality requested additional project designs. A public meeting was held where the consultants presented their designs to residents. Several weeks later all residents had opportunity to vote on their choice of design, and that was the design selected. In a second case discussions with MTO staff led to approval for an exemption from land acquisition. Although exempted, we still received a letter announcing a property appraisal as part of requirements for work related to a specific project. We were invited to discuss the appraisal when completed. The letter came from a real estate officer in MTO. No mention was made of expropriation or land transfer.

The letter was civil, but even so we were happy it was not relevant to us. Land was acquired from other owners though. As far as I know owners who reach agreement with MTO sign land transfers at some point, and expropriation is initiated if there is failure to reach agreement. I believe that actual expropriations are carried out by municipalities.

What you describe sounds vastly different than what we experienced. However, we only experienced processes administered by MTO. Processes used by municipalities or counties may be different. Still, I suspect something may be off especially if new land survey work hasn’t been highly visible. I'd use any information contact identified, but it might be worthwhile to contact a lawyer who is knowledgeable about these processes. Lawyers can be engaged to provide expert advice without necessarily providing legal representation. You never know what you might find. For example, if the process you are in is administered by a municipality and the process isn’t entirely proper, then you may find an allay in the Ontario Municipal Board. OMB hearings cost a municipality a minimum of $65,000, which provides strong encouragement for small municipalities to follow their own rules.

Hope you reach a conclusion that is acceptable to you. It's not easy getting there though. Luck

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