Fiscal Imbalance

One interesting point is that fact that Saskatchewan is a have province.....but they pay the feds $1.07 for every $1.00 of oil ....funny.

Thats the reason here in Alberta we are more vocal and skeptical of the feds....we won't vote for stupid socialists who will put Alberta in the same boat as Saskatchewan.....my god if Alberta was getting ripped off that much there would be instant seperation..... thus we vote for people like Klien and conservatives to build firewalls and keep Alberta's wealth in Alberta........ imagine Alberta being run by a pu$$y socalist like Lorne Calvert.....ha ha ha... funny but scary

Yeah, Peppy, Zen already paid for you...or maybe you're paying for Zen. Either way, it doesn't matter. If you are a Canadian then you owe on the debt. That goes for pretty much everybody in other countries too, likely including where ever you came from. We are a debtor world.

Expecting tax cuts before that debt is paid off is not realisitic. The real question should be what have we done to deserve this debt? There is a basic flaw in economics if everybody owes money to everybody. Maybe it's time that all governments mutually declared all debt, government and private, wiped out. Then we could start over. That's not going to happen though, because there's a bunch of elderly white men in suits who get to do whatever they want because of us all being in debt. They are the same guys who caused the debt in the first place, and it serves them well.

Gary: I will continue to say bad things about Ralphie until he smartens the hell up.

Marcarc: Good to see you back.

A question about auto manufacturing on the East Coast. Am I remembering correctly that Mr. Bricklin tried to build his sports car there? It was New Brunswick, I believe. It was one of the finest sports cars ever built...minimalistic, compact, innovative, and powerful...although he should have used Chevy engines instead of Ford.

I still believe that if the Canadian government wanted to help economic diversification, they should have tossed some more money at that project. A specialty car manufacturer based in Canada would be a handy way of promoting new technologies into the market about now.

I can well imagine that CD Howe is LOVED in Ontario, after all, they have him to thank for moving all the manufacturing there. Like I said, the British didn't think so, when they came over they berated the government for using the war as an excuse to relocate industry. Mills and steel foundries were closed out east, and production all centralized into Ontario. So the british certainly weren't crazy about it, while they were fighting through rubble and blackouts, the canadian government was consolodated industry to their buddies (and themselves). And remember, during this time we really WERE a state controlled economy, the government controlled every aspect of the economy.

That is a blatant propaganda lie that it has created a system of dependance though. It's designed to further the argument that 'we shouldn't give them so much and maybe they'd get jobs or move'. The fact is that you simply can't get any investment going there. Walk into an ACOA office, and tell them you want to start a company and they'll laugh in your face, they HAVE no money. Go to their site and see what they invest in. Go to a private bank, you think Royal Bank is going to invest in manufacturing in Nova Scotia? They're biggest clients are in southern ontario, you think they are going to fund potential competitors? get real! Since there is a smaller population, again, due to federal legislation (don't believe that? Go look around the world, in most non-landlocked countries the largest populations live on the coastal areas-New York, Florida, California, Dublin, Brazil, and on and on) there are next to no universities, so they don't benefit from the latest federal buyout called the Research and Technology Fund, that multi billion dollar gift to ontario and quebec.

If you look there is next to NO federal investment in the maritimes. What they get is enough to keep them from third world status, in other words, enough for education and health-though not good education and health. The dependency comes from examples set by the feds. Why would Nova Scotia or Newfoundland invest in oil and gas if it's simply going to be deducted from equalization benefits? In other words, all the money that would normally go to investing, would go to education and health, and once again, there is no investment.

If Canada actually functioned, hell, you could just move Research in Motion to New Brunswick and that would provide the incentives, income, education and investment opportunities for an entire province. But no, Waterloo only has TWO universities, lord knows the poor bastards need all the help they can get (and just because most of the startup for RIM came from the feds doesn't really enter into it). After all, the per capita income in southern ontario is only TWICE the maritimes, poor, poor dears.

No doubt all the gung ho federalists have gone off in a huff over us 'whining maritimers'. It's always interesting to go to the source. Here's some interesting remarks about the GTA, not from me, but from KPMG:

The GTA is one of the lowest-cost business centers in the world. According to the KPMG Competitive Alternatives 2004 study, Toronto had one of the lowest cost indexes of all the major G-7 cities studied, especially for manufacturing and software. The GTA outperformed big U.S. cities like Detroit, Chicago, Buffalo, Atlanta, San Jose, New York, Seattle, and Dallas–Fort Worth. One reason for this is the generous number of incentives and assistance programs provided at the provincial and federal levels, as well as one of the broadest ranges in the world for costs that can be recovered through R&D tax credits.

There's more:

General Motors, Ford, Honda, Kia, Suzuki, Nissan, and Volkswagen are just a few of the automotive companies that have established their Canadian headquarters in the GTA. DaimlerChrysler and Ford are serious about their presence in the GTA — combined they have recently spent a total of C$2 billion to expand production capacities for new product lines.

"The GTA's cost competitiveness has been a key factor in our membership's production increasing almost 300 percent over the past 12 years," says Gerry Fedchun, president of the Automotive Parts Manufacturer's Association of Canada. "It boils down to location. Our GTA members can service OEMs with a production capacity of over 2.5 million units per year within just 1.5 hours of one location. In fact, two thirds of North American auto assemblers are within a 10-hour drive."


The federal government is also intent on supporting this vital industry. It has established Auto 21, a Canadian government Centre of Excellence that relies on more than 230 top Canadian scientists and researchers to study ways that Canada can increase its competitiveness in the automobile industry.


Now getting the picture? How often do you ever hear the words "Auto 21" in the media. The feds? Paying scientists to do the research for the automotive industry, one of the wealthiest industries in the world? You may be dumb enough to think that they are doing government work, but it doesn't take SCIENTISTS to study competitiveness. Ontarians may call this 'investment', but it's a handout if I ever saw one, I see the gravy train a'comin. You don't need to read (or write) a book on this stuff, sometimes a pamphlet works just fine.

"Oh my," s/he's breaking the user agreement and pointing out that s/he thinks s/he's succeeded in inciting another member, which is against the user agreement -- and then pointing it out. And it looks like you're the one going into a "tizzy" and this is not the Canadian Politics or International Politics (what is bad for Ontario is bad for NAFTA, let alone the Outer Canadas) or Canadian Culture or Coming to Canada forum (though it applies to that around Ontario as well; the lowest number that represents money for settlement agencies per newcomer; but I've already been over that, I've already covered just about everything; for any reasonable debate; around a reasonable person who knows what a debate is) or the Prairies forum either -- it's the Ontario forum and the topic of the thread is "Fiscal Imbalance" -- with Ontario missing from the topic, but it's not missing due to the name of the forum. Are you lost?

I also asked (warned) you to use the pm button if you have anything personal to say to whomever/whatever you think "I" am. That way, I can ignore crap such as the post you made and so can everyone else. But when you make personal posts publicly I have to address them, because I have no idea who/what is going to stumble across this forum, read your drivel and due to ignorance, possibly believe it and join in on some ignorance/obfiscation-fest. I've seen it happen more than enough times to know how to stop it.

Informed Ontarians also have to teach other Ontarians and particularly around this issue, how to spot and deal with obfiscation, hearsay, ignorance, trying to change the name of the forum/province let alone the topic: and the usual "tactics" of the ignorant so that they can blow you or anyone else off in any other forums, turning facts from other sources into some personal issue, and how to pin politicians and any other "Canadian ignorance" to the mat with one simple question:

"What makes the lives and futures of every 'Canadian' worth so much more than the lives of every Ontarian and even those who are about to move to Ontario, becoming sub-Canadians whose lives and futures are worth so much less than every other 'Canadian'?"

You never did answer that one because you can't. It would force you to prove otherwise, which would force you to deal with the facts, "you" meaning whomever, particularly politicians and particularly politicians in the Ontarios (which includes the confederates) to light fires under their worthless arses and go to it trying to argue the facts -- without even knowing what they are, or knowing damned well what the facts are -- but counting on the usual around politics -- ignorance of the masses, the source of every problem on the planet, to grease their lies, obfiscation, but best of luck forming up against what has formed up in Ontario around this issue; which is going to lead to many others but that's another topic/book or ten to address in another month, two, who knows, how the rest of the Canadas and particularly the confederates choose to try to ignore this issue (to say the least) will determine how it's dealt with.

I didn't choose to post in this forum for no apparent reason.

And you do not state facts backed up by credible sources; you state whatever (you seem to parrot the NDP for the most part; could be an NDP recuiter for all anyone knows) without a shred of anything to back it up with; which is not a debate.

A debate, as I was taught, is picking a subject or having one thrown at you, informing yourself on the pros and cons regardless of which "side" you happen to be assigned to (or pick) and debating the facts, not hearsay, let alone personal anything let alone insults, the last resort of the "debater" who has nothing at all so tries to turn it into some personal debate -- which is what the pm button is for.

No one cares about your hearsay and I expect no one to care about any hearsay I post, without facts to back it up, it is not your job to do my research and it is not my job to do your research to disprove some wild allegation you make out of the blue.

If you have something to say then you back it up with facts and I published the facts and without a care in the world whether they happened to offend whoever/whatever because they're not "my facts" ... I didn't come up with any of it and this is the Ontario forum for local Ontario discussions, which is all this is. You are not going to obfiscate, you are not going to change the topic, let alone the name of the forum. And if you use the pm button for personal whatever then I can ignore it/delete it. Post it publicly, post anything publicly around me and you had better know what you're talking about.

You haven't read one document. You don't even know what a fiscal imbalance is and now you're an expert on what counries are as well? Which country did you set up with no numbers and who says this is "a country"? Go to the Republic of Alberta website to read that ridiculous ignorance; which has received attention from American ignorance. Extremists (exploiters of ignorance for profit) in B.C. like:

Gone to where other than off our land?

With a stand-alone economy, little Alberta's currency would be worth 12 to 15 cents on our dollar let alone the U.S. dollar. And they don't even have their own law enforcement for fewer people than the Toronto Police Force (which out-mans the Canadian Army and is paid for entirely out of what's left of the City of Toronto's residential property taxes that the "Ontario" government doesn't steal) have to deal with and fewer roads in Alberta to patrol as well; not to mention the "federal" waters in Lake Ontario the the Toronto Police Force marine units patrol.

Source: --

We have this "western alliance" crap on one side, claiming to be "Canadian" while making bizarre threats in endless loops of complaint in gripe-fests, and the even more bizarre out of Stampede Town, a political party with one foot in mad cow dung and the other in a "holy puddle" of pig urine, on our land in South Ontario mouthing off in all directions. If "y'all" want to leave, then get lost. We'll replace "y'all" (not much) in a week, with people who will actually take advantage of the opportunities they have for a change and won't engage in endless loops of complaint in gripe-fests over Ontario getting its fair share of its own revenues per capita to pay for expenses per capita, let alone turning it around to the opposite claiming that they have legitimate gripes in taking more of Ontario's revenues per capita than it gets to keep for itself -- which is what the polite term "fiscal imbalance" means.

We've got, not "Quebec" but the usual, a few bonehead politicians lying to people (at least they have a real population to market to and fairly diverse as well, unlike the populations of suburbs in Saskatchewan, Manitoba, Nova Scotia, New Brunswick, Newfoundland & Labrador, PEI, the N.W.T., Yukon, Nunavat) who don't matter. "Everyone matters," etc., but it's a lie. Very few people matter around decision-making and the business leaders of the Montreal region, which is Quebec (take it up with the Federation of Canadian Municipalities and their documentation of this mess), are not the slightest bit interested in nothing "Quebec" (it's not a singularity) can accomplish on its own anyway: "separating" from itself, from Canada. Good luck to them even getting a referendum question passed with the confederate Clarity Act around.

But the confederates are sitting right on our land in South Ontario; they're not in a political District or anything else, they're on our land and if it comes down to it and "we" (do you have any idea what the Ontario Chamber of Commerce represents? Aside from everything else backing them up, the confederates have every business that means anything in the Ontarios pointing guns at their heads; diplomatically for now but it's a no-brainer where the "diplomacy" will lead -- nowhere as usual around this province, with the rest of "y'all" spitting on us; your post is a typical example) and the lid is off here, there is no putting it back on and nothing is trying to put it back on. Every time the confederates or any other provincial/territorial moron open their less than worthless yaps, more guns are brought to bear against them and we certainly don't need the confederates. We'll be far better off without them and the "Ontario" feds are out of time as well.

All of the talk is done. From here on out it's just a matter of going through the motions, "speeches" like yours only serve to piss Ontarians off more, as more and more are informed, which doesn't mean a bunch of numbers, it means knowing how those numbers are affecting the lives of Ontarians today, have affected them for decades and will destroy them in the future, 5 years maximum and the heat is going to be turned up to make sure that the rest of the Canadas we have no use for and the U.S./NAFTA has no use for as is, bitch and complain as usual, as though they have a single card to play. What are you going to do, save us billions of dollars a year? That's supposed to be some threat that we're supposed to care about?

You've all pissed all over south Ontario, bashing Toronto is the second national sport as proclaimed by many a BC'er, Alberta goes without saying around their delusions of "Ontario" and "Quebec", and you're speaking for all of Winnipeg in this forum -- and we can shut you down and what are you going to do about it?

"Why are the lives of every 'Canadian' worth so much more than the lives of Ontarians?"

Every single jurisdiction gets more of our own revenues per capita than the (less than worthless) "Ontario" government gets to keep for "Ontario" programs/services/infrastructure and that's what the "fiscal imbalance" (extortion and we have 100 years of proof that it has accomplished worse than nothing; one of the largest money transfers on the planet has taken place by the confedertes, for decades, out of Ontario and into the what? There is nothing out there and it doesn't take an economic analyst to see it, it's what the population numbers combined with GDP numbers are; markets and we are not oriented to the rest of the Canadas anymore).

If I wished to discuss, debate, not argue the issues, not arguments, of a country I would not be publishing in the Ontario forum. Just because every other jurisdiction in the Canadas gets more of our revenues per capita than we get to keep for ourselves, year after decade, doesn't mean that "the country" is being discussed. Our revenues are the topic in this thread and I didn't post in the Ontario forum for no apparent reason.

AND THERE IS NOTHING MORE TO ANY FISCAL ANYTHING BUT NUMBERS (oops, Caps Lock must have got stuck, just like yours must have above) and explanations of numbers that represent the lives of Ontarians and the near- and long-term future of Ontario in this case; which certainly does and will affect more than one country, the U.S. more than this one, as you have already pointed out with regard to south Ontario's "strategic location" as yet another attempt to obfiscate and to attempt to spit on the success of Ontario with ignorance based on myths and hearsay -- not facts -- and it's irrelevant to any fiscal imbalance anyway; it doesn't entitle all other Canadians to more funding per person for healthcare, edcuation or any other confederate spending, let alone all other confederate spending, when the Canadiana (Canadian propaganda) myth is that everything is supposed to be "reasonably equal" -- it is not supposed to kill the golden goose, leave Ontario in last place and with 5 years to go before it's a "have not" province) and the "fiscal imbalance" that Ontario has endured for decades is the topic of this thread in the Ontario forum.

And when was the last time you set a country up? Now you're an expert on what counries are as well? Which country did you set up and how did you do it without numbers? It's not relevant to this forum either, but:

...just the first 8 of 147 sections, then six Schedules, most Sections and Schedules and Footnotes (amendments/repeals) with their own subsections, etc., denoted by more numbers and letters that serve as numbers (A., B., C.,...(a), (b), (c),..., Roman numerals I., II., III., (i), (ii), (iii),...). Feel free to count the numbers yourself.

Source: The Solon Law Archive, Canadian Constitutional Documents, A Legal History (C) Copyright 1994-2004 William F. Maton - -- (Still Under Development: The complete -- is available now, here on-line, freely. With the main core done, there's the other 400 or so to do...)

Just six of 78 footnotes of one portion of one "Constitution" Act, 8 of 147 sections, then six Schedules, full of other Acts and Orders, another "Constitution" for Nunavat (lots more numbers) to add to the mess and how many numbers do you count just out of that?

Which country are you referring to that has no legal system/laws and no way to refer to any of them, no dates (numbers), no location -- numbers whether created by cartogophers "to scale" [numbers that make maps accurate so that locations listed on maps such as rivers, oceans, lakes, whatever "land marks" that are not man-made can be referred to when defining the boundaries of a country and whatever internal political jurisdictions it has as referred to by laws of the country that are usually cited as name, year, section, subsection, or section/paragraphs number in other court transcripts when citing a precedent] or latitude, like the 49th parallel, which has nothing to with anything east and south then north [can also be expressed in numbers of degrees, 0/360 being north 90 being east, 180 being south, 270 being west; and direction is expressed in numbers on many ships and airplanes ... GPS, latitude, longitude, altitude above or below mean sea level] of Lake Superior, which means nothing until numbers confirm that distances on charts/maps are accurate to scale, are agreed upon and can then be referred to; to define where a country's boundaries are in a way that will stand up in a court of law, the WTC, WTO, whatever that constitutes a violation of the jurisdiction of a country can't just be expressed as hearsay.

What number of what constitutes a violation of entering the waters or airspace of "a country?" You just say so, you saw some ship fishing in "Canadian waters" and its GPS system and recorder proves that it wasn't but you state, "There's more to a country than numbers" and the WTC, WTO, UN, Canadian military and whatever else is just going to take your word for it?

You can build a fence, shed, addition or other building wherever you feel like building one: but it's only legal according to numbers stated by laws/bylaws of your jurisdiction on your own property that you are holding a lawful deed for. Surveyors deal with nothing but numbers.

Which country are you referring to with no economic/financial systems, or when it comes to fiscal anything around governments; taxes. Whichever it is, if any, it has no "fiscal" anything so it has nothing to do with the topic of this thread.

Do explain it then as opposed to the usual obfuscation, trolling, inciting, getting defensive/personal over nothing personal, breaking all the rules, not debating a single fact, with a fact, not even being interested in the name of the forum or topic: ignoring the facts, the sources, certainly not me, and having to resort to name-calling because you have nothing else.

Don't even try to judge to me on some personal level. Aside from having not the faintest clue, you are most definitely not qualified to even try. Do it again and you get reported. Understand? Stick to the subject of the forum and the subject of the thread and the documentation I have posted, with very clearly marked sources. And as usual in the prairies, what does the price of wheat grain, barley, chicken or anything else have to do with anything? What value are you referring to that has anything to do with a fiscal imbalance that has been/is robbing Ontario blind for decades?

What would you expect to see around a fiscal imbalance other than numbers, sources and explanations of them? This isn't a cultural issue, other than the welfare culture the hopelessly broken "transfer system" has created in this mess, which the Atlantic Canadas have done many studies about. What do you make of these, Skippy?

“How to Fix Equalization to Encourage Growth. (--) Atlantic Institute for Market Studies web site.

“Help that Hurts.” (--) Atlantic Institute for Market Studies web site.

What's the source? Can you figure that much out? Me? Of course you can figure it out but you have to ignore it or you'll be forced to deal with reality from a welfare state, one of the worst in the Canadas.

You not only kind of missed point of the forum you're in and the topic of the thread, but have no clue what a fiscal imbalance is if you think that one of 13 subnational jurisdictions can create a fiscal imbalance with itself, by itself. If Ontario were all there were to this "federation" the only possible fiscal imbalance would be internal and regional, and there is a vertical fiscal imbalance to deal with in the Ontarios but it's caused by the horizontal fiscal imbalance (horizontal means "across" and in reference to a federal fiscal imbalance and 13 subnational governments, across those jurisdictions). The "Ontario" feds are running an $11 billion fiscal imbalance (last year alone) on the City of Toronto alone, because that is how it works internally. It's not up to Toronto to get that $11 billion back from the confederates (though it will; they don't follow any laws so why should we?), it's up to the alleged "provincial government" to do it, which is the whole point of focusing on Ontario, by sticking to the Ontario forum as opposed to having endless rants such as yours to respond to in another forum. I don't have the time.

Wealth has nothing to do with anything. No one is arguing that confederate tax laws discriminate against Ontario; they're federal ("horizontal") and it's irrelevant what happens to pay out what. It's what goes back in per capita across the board that creates a horizontal fiscal imbalance. Ontario gets the least per capita "spending" (pittances of its own revenues back but that's also beside the point; other than around the massive "surpluses" the confederates have run on the backs of Ontario, not all; which is another issue but the same -- even around Ontario's share of GDP as a percentage of Canada's does not go back to Ontario out of surpluses -- nor does the share of interest it pays on the federal debt, with "its share" low-balled, not reality, just percentage of GDP, which isn't our choice it's how the confederates do it, claim to do it, but don't around Ontario. Percentage of federal receipts from each jurisdiction would make more sense around paying back shares of interest but no matter how it's measured, Ontario gets ripped off in that too) of any jurisdiction in the Canadas, and has for decades.

Even around commie-socialists and Canadiana, it's supposed to be relatively equal. The confederates get over $80 billion a year in receipts from Ontario and no one is saying "give it all back." Just fix the screwed up "transfer system" and alleged "equalization" that sounds reasonable, even noble -- but as per usual, it's a crock of sh.t. It does one thing: allows politicians to lie to advance their political "careers" with lies. We're hauling them out on the carpet with it, enough is enough, smarten up or we'll roll you up in the carpets and kick you to pulps.

Who is going to stand up and tell every Ontarian that their lives are worth so much less than the lives of every other Canadian, and even those who aren't in Ontario yet are about to get ripped off. As soon as they arrive and set foot in Ontario they become sub-Canadians whose lives are worth far less than any other Canadian, so the politicians are going to have to do much more than "explain" that one: or we'll have to get rid of them (with sane structures and systems that actually work). There is no time for yet another confederate committee, all of the facts are on the table, they're not "our numbers" they're confederate numbers and numbers from every Department ("Ministry" ... the public relations bulls..t end) of Finance in all 13 jurisdictions. They all have to publish audited financial statements of public accounts and no one/nothing (who knows anything) is even claiming that the numbers are wrong.

They are doing what you are: obfiscating, trying anything to weasel out from the guns they're under and the more they lie, the more guns are brought to bear against them, more studies, more documentation, but we don't have the time for it, so something is going to give: and it's not going to be Ontario.

Here's "my little accountant's book" just from one document:

INDEPENDENT POLICY RESEARCH

Research on the transfer system has been a cottage industry at various times and in different parts of Canada [which is outrageous in itself given its alleged goals and impact; nothing but lies to advance political careers].

Several features stand out from this research:

1. As reported earlier, no serious quantitative analysis or economic modeling has ever been made public and probably has never been done on the impact of the fiscal gap on Ontario. [They've been done now and every gun is being brought to bear now; it's kinda the point but they are referring to the less than worthless confederates.]
   
2. Most of the available research on the system has focused on equalization and other transfer payment programs [only to discover a total disaster, let alone mess; which the Atlantic Institute of Market Research turned up years ago, but the lying fraudulant politicking continues], not federal spending differentials built into federal government programming [which makes it even worse; such as the federal government spends an average of $819 per immigrant on settlement services in Ontario compared to $3,806 per immigrant in Quebec, Ontario received the lowest amount of benefit per unemployed person of any province in 2003-04: $5,060 per unemployed person. In contrast, PEI received $14,485 per unemployed person and the list goes on and on, particularly around confederate "surplus" and other spending that isn't connected to the hopelessly broken transfer "system"]. From Ontario’s point of view, as we have seen, the second of these is as important as the first.
   
3. Research on the mechanisms and processes involving the net fiscal gap and its components has been much greater than the economic and consumer impact of the system on recipient and contributing provinces alike. [It screws all.]
   
4. Research on the transfer system and related issues in the recipient provinces always ignores the impact of the system on Alberta and Ontario.

Perhaps the best way to convey the overall tone is by letting some of the best known researchers address the issues in their own words:

Paul Boothe, a former Deputy Minister of Finance for Saskatchewan and Professor at the University of Alberta, writes as follows:

...some have argued (notably, Thomas Courchene) that as long as trade flowed along an east-west axis as a result of the National Policy, most of the benefit of Ontario’s contributions to other regions eventually returned — either in the form of inexpensive natural resources or through purchases of Ontario’s manufactured goods. Whether the reason for Ontario’s past generosity [it's always been done by the confederates with confederate receipts taken from Ontario, not "by Ontario" nor were/are any of the programs under "Ontario's" jurisdiction, but those from the prairies ... and Atlantic Canadas, B.C. and territories, and sometime even Quebec politicians marketing to ignorant sort of "masses" get confused around such things; not around themselves, only around Ontario and/or Quebec] was altruism or enlightened self interest, it is clear that the past ten to fifteen years have seen a change of attitudes in Canada’s largest province. [What is clear in the documentation is that the amounts of Ontario's revenues being stolen by the confederates to burn in the past ten years in particlar, it'd be better if they did burn it instead of causing the damage the transfer "system" has and will always cause as is, has shot up dramatically and the "rules" of transfers that used to make them make at least sound good have been thrown in the garbage, and Ontario has dropped to last place in the federation around everything, gets the least, has no reason to even pay federal taxes anymore, has no use for the confederates; but restructuring that from the volumes of books on it is difficult to explain in a post, to fix this mess, not to "dump" anything but lying frauds of politicians and the insults to the words systems and structures that allow them to exist and get away with it, as is.]

Changing trade patterns and increased openness — accelerated by free trade agreements with the US and Mexico — changed the implicit economic contract on which the Canadian federation was based [irreversibly in Ontario]. With trade redirected along a north-south axis, natural resources from the rest of Canada are now sold to Ontario at world prices.

The largest markets for Ontario’s manufactured goods [and services] are now in the US. Likewise, regions that benefit from Ontario’s contributions to the federation are increasingly likely to spend the proceeds in US markets.

Probably more important than the change in trade patterns themselves has been the apparent indifference of Ottawa to the challenges Ontario faced in adjusting to the new realities. [And it's not "apparent" it's extremely obvious and they're not "indifferent" they're obnoxious worthless little toads who think they can order us around, sitting right on our land surrounded by us, while raping and murdering us by negligent incompetence that's build right into the "systems" and "structures".] Ottawa’s indifference along with the lack of recognition of its historical contribution by other partners in the federation, has caused Ontario governments [lots more than that] to question the province’s traditional role in the federation.[7] [Simple reality and guess who talked about it the most in "the Commons" last...mess? Duceppe, of course. Who else would would defend Ontario along with pointing out the obvious after what blew the lid off this, the "deals" with Newfoundland & Labrador and Nova Scotia? No one else in that asylum. Bury your heads in the sand and it'll just go away; never, we have no time for anymore confederate committees or anymore confederate anything, it's over [as is, which is a very good thing] for all politicians in the Canadas and the confederates and everything else just ignoring it all -- even trying to blame it on Ontario in your case, is great marketing to get it done. All it's doing is pissing Ontarians off even more.]

Boothe also notes:

…the growth of information technology in general and the Internet in particular has resulted in the transfer of powers from national governments to regional and local governments and citizens themselves.

As the traditional functions of the national government are circumscribed by these trends, a self conscious federal government [sitting right on south Ontario's land] must develop a new rationale for its continued existence. [And it had better be quick about it; but there is nothing it has to offer. Union departments/services, of course, but no singular federal government, no "constitutional monarchy" or mess of constitutions/Pandora's box that the confederate Supreme Court can't even come up with a list of as to "what it contains" in myriad Acts, Statutes, "unwritten traditions" -- another total mess.]

An obvious place to look for a new raison d’etre is in areas of jurisdiction currently occupied by provincial and local governments. [And maybe even forcing the confederates, if they survive beyond the election circus act marketing "campaigns" -- all of them, like we need a leader who can flip burgers and eat plenty of them turning into a fat slob, and "Hello, I'm a politician. My name is Pond Scum do you mind if I hold your baby for a picture?" And the all-important hand-shaking abilities and rigged audiences to read speeches they didn't even write to. Stand-up comics have a rougher time getting jobs, and they don't follow "their laws"; just stupid laws, the alleged "supreme law"/mess, highest in "the lands" with their side-deals all over the place, totally out of their jurisdiction, which is against the mess of constitutions/Pandora's box, and to keep their noses and our revenues out of "provincial" business and that word is going; around here. Provincial means unsophisticated simpleton bumpkinly rustic rural bucolic yokel rube yahoo hayseed chawbacon hicks.]

A complementary theory ... has been advanced by Breton (1996). This theory views national and subnational governments as occupying the same political space as competitors for the allegiance of voters. Because social policy areas under provincial jurisdiction show up regularly as top-of-mind issues among voters across Canada, the federal government is driven to compete ... with provinces to occupy the policy areas that voters view as most important.[8]

7. Boothe, Paul. “Renewal in the Centre: Working with Ontario’s Federation Partners.” Pages 1-2.
8. Boothe, Paul. “Renewal in the Centre: Working with Ontario’s Federation Partners.” Pages 16-17.

McMahon in Retreat From Growth makes some important policy recommendations:

…government taxation and, particularly, spending levels must be brought into a normal range. Hardly any developed region in the world bears the level of government spending found in Atlantic Canada… [Ontario's taxes are right up there with Newfoundland and Quebec to pay for that spending; as documented by the Canadian Taxpayers Federation, with surtaxes included, not the usual political fraud/lies. And the Atlantic [Canada] Institute for Market Research (AIMS) has incredible amounts of documentation, the data it's based on, that will shock the hell out of any "Canadian" who believes that "equalization" does anything but bankrupt the rich to totally screw the poorer jurisdictions.]

Federal policy, with its bundle of perverse incentives, has been particularly devastating…

The region could benefit from an effort by Atlantic leaders, at both the federal and provincial levels, to push for reform of Ottawa's regional programs. But the worst of those are the ones that regional politicians often support most strongly: federal transfers to the region, regionally extended employment insurance (EI) and economic-development efforts.[9]

[Which is part of the fiscal imbalance. Who is going to stand up and tell every Ontarian that their lives are worth less than the lives of every other "Canadian"? Everyone, it's what you're all doing and it's all you did with your ridiculous remark about "Ontario bringing a fiscal imbalance it has no control over whatsovever, it's between the confederates and the boneheaded politicians being referred to above, and backed up very well by the Atlantic [Canada] Institute of Market Research. Go read all of their documentation and tell them how "helpful" the ridiculously blind, deaf and dumb "transfer system" in this mess has "benefitted them" or anything else in this mess. But politicians will be politicians, when they're allowed to prey on the oblivious "masses" and we have suburbs in Toronto with more people to market political bull**** to than any of the Atlantic provinces, with one exception: we have skids of documentation that is not produced by governments to haul every politician out on the carpet with. The populations of all four of the Atlantic provinces combined don't even amount to the (irrelevant due to commuters) resident population of the City of Toronto alone, with one city hall to try to represent itself with in a province of over 12 million people; 93% in the south. Toronto is the third-largest "province" in the ridiculous "constitutional monarchy [lie; we have no monarch other than in symbolic bull**** that no one even cares about anymore] federation" behind the usual: the rest of the Windsor-Quebec City Corridor only, or "Ontario" and "Quebec" -- fiction, lies, structural insanity that, along with insults to the word "systems" (political) cause political insanity.]

Finally, Professor Courchene of Queen’s University notes:

…Ontario now has the lowest level of per-capita effective revenues, with BC a close second. The poorest equalization-receiving province here is Newfoundland (and) Labrador with $7,449 in per capita effective revenues, compared to $6,992 for Ontario. (Note that this ignores the revenue boost that Newfoundland and Labrador will get from the bilateral offshore accord).[10]

[And that's a damned shame considering everything Courchene has documented; one paragraph. And he's from Montreal not Toronto or south Ontario or whatever this "Ontario" thing is supposed to be, but the facts are the facts.]

9. McMahon, Fred. “Retreat from Growth: Atlantic Canada and the Negative-Sum Economy.” Atlantic Institute for Market Studies (AIMS), 2000, page 151.
10. Courchene, Thomas J. “Vertical and Horizontal Fiscal Imbalances: An Ontario Perspective.” Institute for Research on Public Policy. Background Notes for a Presentation to the Standing Committee on Finance, House of Commons, May 4, 2005, pages 10-11.

REFERENCES AND RELEVANT WEBSITES

Baldwin, John R., Mark Brown, Jean-Pierre Maynard and Danielle Zietsma. “Catching Up and Falling Behind: The Performance of Provincial GDP per Capita from 1990 to 2003.”
Statistics Canada, Economic Analysis Research Paper Series, Catalogue no. 11F0027MIE -
No. 024., November 2004.
--

Boothe, Paul. “Renewal in the Centre: Working with Ontario's Federation Partners.”
September 2003. --.

Canadian Institute for Health Information.
--

Canadian Institute for Research on Regional Development, Université de Moncton.
--.

Chen, Duanjie and Jack M. Mintz. “Ontario’s Fiscal Competitiveness in 2004.”
Institute for Competitiveness and Prosperity, November 8, 2004.
--

“Colleges: An Investment in Ontario's Future, 2005-06 Funding Requirements.”
Association of Colleges of Applied Arts and Technology of Ontario (ACAATO), February
2005. --

Council of Ontario Universities. --

Courchene, Tom. “ACCESS: A Convention on the Canadian Economic and Social Systems.”
Working Paper prepared for the Ministry of Intergovernmental Affairs, Government of Ontario, 1996. --

Courchene, Thomas J. “Vertical and Horizontal Fiscal Imbalances: An Ontario Perspective.”
Institute for Research on Public Policy. Background Notes for a Presentation to the Standing
Committee on Finance, House of Commons, May 4, 2005.
--

“How Much Does Ontario Contribute to Federal Coffers?” TD Economics, Topic Paper,
March 3, 2005. --

Institute for Competitiveness & Prosperity. --

Ontario Hospital Association. --

Loubier, Yvan. “The Existence, Extent and Elimination of Canada’s Fiscal Imbalance.”
Report of the Subcommittee on Fiscal Imbalance. Standing Committee on Finance, June 2005.
--

Lovely, Warren. “Canadian Financing Quarterly: Killing the Golden Goose?”
CIBC World Markets, Economics & Strategy, April 15, 2005.
--

McMahon, Fred. “Retreat from Growth: Atlantic Canada and the Negative-Sum Economy.”
Atlantic Institute for Market Studies (AIMS), 2000.
--

Pelletier, Benoit. “A call into question of the foundations of the federal spending power.”
A speech given by Mr. Benoit Pelletier, Minister for Canadian Intergovernmental Affairs
during a conference on the theme of “Redistribution within the Canadian Federation.”
University of Toronto, February 6, 2004.
--

Péloquin, David A. “Incentives for grant-maximization and other distortions of provincial and state polices: A comparison of equalization regimes in Canada and Australia.”
--

Statistics Canada. --

Watts, R.L. “Comparing Equalization in Federations.” Forum of Federations, as delivered October 28, 2002, Charlottown, Prince Edward Island.
--

Watts, Ronald. “Autonomy or Dependence: Intergovernmental Financial Relations in Eleven Countries.” Queen’s University, January 28, 2005.
--

2003 Special Series on the Council of the Federation. A series of commentaries on the interprovincial-interterritorial Council of the Federation published by the Institute of Intergovernmental Relations at Queen’s University and the Institute for Research on Public Policy, 2003.
--

ACKNOWLEDGEMENTS

The following people, who have represent the provincial New Democratic, Liberal and Progressive Conservative parties — and the federal Liberal party, were interviewed for their views for this report:

Elinor Caplan
Janet Ecker
Ernie Eves
Mike Harris
Ian Macdonald
Roy MacLaren
John Manley
David Peterson
Bob Rae
Gordon Walker

Other individuals connected with the public life of Ontario were also consulted on particular aspects of the project. Their assistance, as well as the assistance of those listed above, was invaluable and is much appreciated.

Fairness in Confederation Provincial Roundtable Discussions

Windsor and District Chamber of Commerce (May 24, 2005)
Linda Smith, Windsor and District Chamber of Commerce
Lindsay Boyd, Windsor and District Chamber of Commerce VP of Board/Union Gas
Rosanna Pellerito, City of Windsor
Ike Erickton, Chatham and District Chamber of Commerce
Neil McGuoy, Hotel-Dieu Grace Hospital, Windsor
Walter Muroff, Walter Muroff and Co. Ltd.
Gail Antaya, Chatham and District Chamber of Commerce
Dave Harrison, Scotiabank, Windsor
Daryl Dawson, Tamo Group, Chatham
Dean Clevett, BASF Canada, Windsor
Dave Robertson, Windsor and District Chamber of Commerce Finance and Tax Committee
Ed Miles, Windsor and District Chamber of Commerce Finance and Tax Committee
Igor Siljanoski, Windsor and District Chamber of Commerce

Toronto Board of Trade (May 27, 2005)
John Ballie, Kodak Canada Inc.
David Black, Toronto Board of Trade
Debbie Bonk, Vaughan Chamber of Commerce
Cecil Bradley, Toronto Board of Trade
Karen Campbell, Greater Toronto Marketing Alliance
Mike Chopowick, Toronto Board of Trade
Glen Grunwald, Toronto Board of Trade
David Lindsay, Association of Colleges of Applied Arts and Technology of Ontario
Chris May, Institute of Chartered Accountants of Ontario
Peter Milligan, Poole Milligan
Claurelle Poole, Institute for Competitiveness and Prosperity
Mauro Ritacca, Toronto Real Estate Board
Peter Sirois, Etobicoke Chamber of Commerce
Pradeep Sood, Indo-Canada Chamber of Commerce
Phil Thomas, Scarborough Chamber of Commer

Ottawa Chamber of Commerce (June 6, 2005)
Eric McSweeney, Chair, Ottawa Chamber of Commerce
David Glastonbury, Past Chair, Ottawa Chamber of Commerce
Gail Logan, President, Ottawa Chamber of Commerce
Katherine Hollinsworth, Policy & Communications Coordinator, Ottawa Chamber of Commerce
Mike Oster, Director, Ottawa Chamber of Commerce
Bruce Hillary, Director, Ottawa Chamber of Commerce
Maureen Molot, Chair, Ottawa Community Foundation
Barbara Corkum, Sales Link Management Services
Tom McWilliam, Gloucester Chamber of Commerce
Louise Crandall, Canadian Pharmacists’ Association

Thunder Bay Chamber of Commerce (June 9, 2005)
Roberta Simpson, Chair, Thunder Bay Chamber of Commerce
Mary Long Irwin, President, Thunder Bay Chamber of Commerce
Gail Brescia, Director of Membership Development, Thunder Bay Chamber of Commerce
Jack Mallon
Ian McCormack, Thunder Bay Chamber of Commerce, Board of Directors
Jack Moro, Thunder Bay Chamber of Commerce, Board of Directors
Dennis Buset, Thunder Bay Chamber of Commerce, Board of Directors
Kelli Gothard McKinnon, Immediate Past President, NOACC
Melissa Kusznier, President-Elect, NOACC
Bob Petrie, City Manager, Thunder Bay
Ron Dysievick, Bombardier

Greater Sudbury Chamber of Commerce (June 10, 2005)
José Blanco, Consultant
Jack Braithwaite, Weaver Simmons
Marc Charron, North Bay Chamber of Commerce, NOCC
Bernie Freelandt, Freelandt Caldwell Realty
Steve Irwin, Scotiabank
Chris Kemp, RBC Dominion Services
Michael Luciw, NYB Architects and Chair of the Greater Sudbury Chamber of Commerce
Debbi Nicholson, Greater Sudbury Chamber of Commerce
Dr. David Robinson, Laurentian University
Vicki Smith, CopyCopy

London Chamber of Commerce (June 15, 2005)
David Gurnham, President Elect, London Chamber of Commerce; partner, Deloitte
Terry Roman, President, Decade Development
Pete Thuss, Owner, What’s Up Clothing
Peter McMahon, Past President, London Chamber of Commerce; partner, Protek-IT Solutions
Wayne Dunn, Past President, London Chamber of Commerce; Co-owner County Heritage Forest
Doug Marshman, Past Chair, Municipal Affairs Committee; partner Deloitte
Bill Chizmar, Past President, London Chamber of Commerce; lawyer
Melissa Hardy-Trevenna, London St Thomas Real Estate Board
Gerry Macartney, CEO, London Chamber of Commerce
Garry MacDonald, President, Sarnia Lambton Chamber of Commerce
Sheryl Bovay, Chair, Sarnia Lambton Chamber of Commerce
Bob Hammersley, President, St Thomas and District Chamber of Commerce
Dan Reith, Board Vice Chair, St Thomas and District Chamber of Commerce
Peter Watson, President, Response Generators
Nick Kokkoros, Planning & Facilities Dept, London Health Sciences Centre
Martha Dennis, General Manager, Woodstock District Chamber of Commerce
Bob Klanac, Communications Director, London Chamber of Commerce
Lorna Wendling, Tax Manager, Deloitte
Ron Dawson, Past-President, London Chamber of Commerce; RC Dawson Ltd
Malcolm Ruddock, Vice President Communications & Public Affairs,
University of Western Ontario
--

Source: Ontario Chamber of Commerce (--)
Fairness In Confederation
Fiscal Imbalance: Driving Ontario to ‘Have-Not’ Status.
David MacKinnon, August, 2005
PDF --

One document. If you think that you can even argue with the person tasked with putting all of the above together into one document, look up the author (MacKinnon) let alone the sources, and best of luck debating with him.

The above is just one "little" acccountant's book and it is not mine. I'm quite used to that pathetic tactic, posting sources from the U.S. Department of Defense/Pentagon, U.S. Senate Committee on Intelligence, the President of the United States, in pointless "debates" about what everything possible in the U.S. has already admitted to: no weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, no WMD programs, no nuclear program (British intel, proven to be bogus before the invasion/occupation even occurred), no ties to Al Queda, right from their own government: but it's what "I" say and it's wrong; because those who want to believe lies will do anything to avoid dealing with the facts. And that is all you have done.

You go ahead and take on the sources above, just from one document -- which you might want to read first. The link is above, there's a 4-page document and link to it in the first post I made, around the first sentence, from the CIBC World Markets, which explains quite a lot in just 4 pages but doesn't go into much detail. Courchene took that document and ridiculous comments from the confederates trying to claim that there was no such thing, a horizontal fiscal imbalance was impossible because "provincial/territorial governments can raise taxes to whatever they want to" so he took the Lovely/CIBC report and documented it in detail:

Institute for Research on Public Policy (IRPP - --)
Vertical and Horizontal Fiscal Imbalances: An Ontario Perspective
Thomas J. Courchene
Jarislowsky-Deutsch Professor of Economic and Financial Policy Queen’s University
and Senior Scholar Institute for Research on Public Policy
Montreal

Background Notes for a Presentation to the
STANDING COMMITTEE ON FINANCE
HOUSE OF COMMONS May 4, 2005

And rammed it down the throats of the lying, not stupid, confederates. Just raise provincial taxes by $23 billion a year and for what, so that the confederates can run up massive surpluses for no apparent reason? So that they can hand more of our revenues per capita to other jurisdictions so they can pay their deficits off and even work on their debts while we raise taxes and cut more services? F..k you. And f..k every oblivious "Canadian" living in oblivious fantasy worlds.

No one and nothing in this worthless 'federation' is going to tell us that their lives are worth so much more than the lives and futures of every Ontarian (and newcomer) is, stating that we're sub-Canadians who don't even deserve the same share of our own revenues than the rest of "y'all" get.

Your attempts to denegrate period are laughable. You are not going to denegrate anything around me and get away with it and would do well to get that through your thick skull.

Oh, that's just brilliant, Blair. And what do you have to try to demonstrate "poor, poor <whatever>" other than numbers that prove the exact opposite? And prove plenty of stupidity as well?

You are inciting another member, personally, over your own ignorance of the facts; because it's all you've got. Try it again in one more post to me and you get reported.

Congratulations. You have been "upgraded" to even larger welfare bum status. Saskatchewan is far more respectable.

I have a better idea. Why don't you show up at Toronto international, the second-most expensive airport in the world to land at due to zero "federal" or "provincial" money and a private organization having to set up to sell bonds to rebuild terminal 1, which was declared structurally unsound, but which none of you gave a sh.t about as usual because your lives are all worth so much more than ours are and you can spew your bulls..t around here; and feel free to head to Kenora to tell them about the hydro grids you plan to build through all of north Ontario to feed hydroelectric power to south Ontario. [Losers; and then you'd be bitching that we were stealing all of your power. As if we'd bother; why not figure out how to use it yourselves to attract private investment and improve your own economy for once?]

And why oh why would Kenora mean anything? They've got more doctors per capita in the north than we do in the south, and want to "join Manitoba" so they can get this:

[b:b1b7c0fbe7]Equalization Entitlements – (2004-05, 2005-06) per person
[i:b1b7c0fbe7]Sorted by 2005-06 [u:b1b7c0fbe7]per person[

It's like Bugs Bunny said, "What a maroon."

Fascinating. What handle was Bugs Bunny referring to in this forum and thread, if any? It looks like really bad computer software is just spitting out random whatever under the handle "Reverend Blair."

Just a test to see what the (rather buggy, must be Microsoft) software does whenever it reads a post that has the handle "Reverend Blair" in it. "Too many keywords to process" so it spits an error message out calling itself a "maroon."

Sounds like S-Ranger ( wonder what the S stands for) is getting a little upset. Turns out that he doesn't even like that Oscar-winning rabbit, Bugs Bunny.

Go back to your cutting and pasting, S-Ranger (still wondering what the S stands for). Pretend that all that matters is money. Ignore history and politics and continue your one-man golden horseshoe separatist movement. Deny being just like the worst of Albertans while doing it. Careful you don't get an aneurism though.

...I have made this observation myself......when he is backed in a corner he tell's me to go read a Mel Hurtig book..lol

...yesI know many people in Alberta bash Ontario, not because we want anything, unlike the Manitobans do, but more because of the political aspect and past issues such as the NEP........but other that that I would have to argue that bashing "redneck" Alberta's is right up there as a national sport along with Toronto bashing.....


....lol, I ain't gonna argue

...Again most Albetan's dont want to see Ontario raped and pillaged, it's jsut the political aspect that seems to bother us......and I do disagree that Canada would be able to replace Alberta in a week...... but I gtg to work i'll be on here later tonight.

Nopw we have Elmer Fudd backing up the man who doesn't like Bugs Bunny.

..first of all let me say I agree...Ontario is the heart of Canada's manufacturing and retail sector and with a population of over 12 million....stands alone... period.

....I believe the GDP of this monster province is somewhere around $500 Billion which is probably around 40% of total Canadian GDP......in one province....it accounts for around 75% of all Canadian manufacturing exports......not to mention the "dubbed" Quebec City Windsor Corridor...

..I have been to southern Ontario a few times and always am surprised by the sheer size of it.....it's built up suburbs and city's endlessly...it's almost like a mini New York..... and Toronto as a city has the most corporate headquarters of any Canadian city...it's the center of the Canadian universe...

...I talk to many American's who have visited Ontario and they are surprised of the sheer size.....they think that all of Canada is the same...although they don't know that once you get to northern Ontario and the Manitoba border it is like complete isolation...

....but let me say that outside the Quebec City- Windsor corridor Alberta is the next powerhouse.....now some will say that BC with a larger population is the powerhouse.....but it is a fact that Alberta has a larger GDP ....BC's GDP is around $145 Billion while Alberta's is $175 billion....

......yes Alberta owes alot of it's wealth to is natural resources which is our most importiant industry.....but Calgary is actually second only to Toronto in corporate head offices.....and there is an emphasis on diversifying the economy here......simply put Alberta is a business oriented province and it's wealth is in good hands.....Alberta's population is currently estimated around 3,260,000, and has the fastest population growth rate of any province, the rate is 1.62%....it also has the fastest growing economy of any province....

......the province is growing extremely fast.....driving between Edmonton Calgary on highway 2 you get the feeling that the province is growing....there are more cars ever year...not to mention the infastructure and roads being build in Alberta.......every year it different and it's exciting times.....new skyscrapers....no debt...ect....especially when compared to cities like Winnipeg which have very low population growth and look the same year after year..... Manitoba has a population of around 1.2 million and a miniscule GDP of around 38 billion...actually Sask with a population just under 1 million actually has a GDP of around $37 billion... not bad when compared against Manitoba...albeit at least Manitoba is growing in population....very very very very slowly though...Sask seems to be in population decline in the last decade or so......

....but I hear some good things out of Saskatoon...and it economy....

ATTN: handle "Reverend Blair" software developers:

"What handle was Bugs Bunny referring to in this forum and thread [quite childish name-calling/inciting], if any?"

The symbol "?" means that a question precedes. A search of the Warner Brothers database will not provide the answer.

I guess I gave it too much credit assuming it was so bad that Microsoft had to produce it. Now it looks like a typically botched NDP project.

It stands for 978289.5421837. Just trying to get the software to lock up and stop spitting out ridiculous, meaningless gibberish; usually within 10 minutes of any post in any forum, 24/7.

ATTN: handle "Reverend Blair" software, uh, kids:

Your software has already had several aneurisms.

This is not the the "Canadian" history or politics forum. It is the Ontario forum.

This topic, "Fiscal Imbalance" in the Ontario forum is not about Canadian politics or history or anything but money and sanity around it to accomplish something for once, other than as documented with regard to the Ontario fiscal imbalance, which is a polite term that means this. Perhaps I can get another "too many keywords to process" error and the software will spit something out from Mickey Mouse:

Source: Canadian Financing Quarterly, CIBC World Markets
Killing the Golden Goose?
Warren Lovely, April 15, 2005
PDF --

The document was published April 15, 2005, but a confederate election is guaranteed and the longer they put it off, the more guns are brought to bear on them; all of them, the whole mess is hopelessly broken according to Quebec's "one-man separation" and plenty in B.C. and Alberta and plenty in Ontario, where "separation" isn't any issue, we can't very well separate from ourselves, but it's a no-brainer to agree with Quebec that the insult to the words "structures" and "systems" are hopelessly broken. Ontario will certainly negotiate with Quebec, B.C. and Alberta or perhaps vice-versa; all it takes is for South Ontario to throw its hands in the air, and it will "embolden" Quebec, Alberta and B.C. Not "against Canada" around here, but against the hopeless structures/systems and the Ontario Chamber of Commerce of not to be trifled with (nor is every chartered bank in the Candas or just the "Acknowledgments" from the OCC that helped out with its Phase 1 report and there is plenty more).

They represent every business in Ontario that means anything, on the Executive side not the labor end but the labour unions are fed up as well. There is nothing left that isn't involved and not "just" in Ontario. And success does not take lectures from failure. It is the Windsor-Quebec City Corridor, Lower Mainland-South Vancouver Island and Calgary-Edmonton Corridor as someone else pointed out.

Bridging the Innovation Gap: Count Cities In, by the Federation of Canadian Municipalities (FCM) PDF -- is an interesting read that doesn't even bother with the Windsor Quebec City Corridor; just the [Greater] Golden Horseshoe - Montreal Region because that's really what makes up the bulk of bulk of "Ontario" and "Quebec" economies.

I have just never seen a single Albertan online, anywhere anytime, who didn't just do what the buggy Blair software does, NDP propaganda and actually believing it, but Klein/Harper propaganda, spitting venom at everything and particularly, well it's all over this site, "those commies huddled around Lake Ontario" and such and this is one of the most sane sites I've ever seen around politics, "us versus them" the "Western Canada" myth (politically<->economically<->socio-economically it is no more a singularity than, well far less so in the "Ontario" and "Quebec" things, let alone between them, but with some myth that some conspiracy is going on, propagated by David Kilgour and others, between Toronto-Ottawa-Montreal. We "conspire" ourselves, in Toronto for certain, out of $11 billion/year, last year alone, by the Ontario and confederate feds; but there are a lot of people here and a lot of newcomers show up all the time, which makes marketing (the truth, facts) quite a lot more difficult than in provinces with populations lower than Toronto's, which is all of them other than the rest of the Windsor-Quebec City Corridor).

But I have just seen a sane, rational Albertan in this forum. I know that there are plenty of them, have met plenty of them in the real world, but never online. It's a first, so Alberta, the Calgary-Edmonton Corridor is Alberta (the Winnipeg CMA is Manitoba, with 60% of the population and it's the only thing in Manitoba that makes any money; but it only has the population of a city-surburb attached to the City of Toronto's west end) and even Layton has a document out about the bulk of the population of the Canadas being in a few cities generating most of the wealth, so that's what has to be focused on.

It's a no-brainer but it won't/can't happen overnight and we can't create classic peasants out of everyone who doesn't happen to live in the few cities in this "federation" that generate all of the money (Marx wrote about it due to the industrial era, "the isolation of rural life" not mistranslation, "the idiocy of rural life" and without doing something to subsidize what we need in the cities that can't feed themselves, we import other natural resources from all over the world now, to avoid turning rural everything into classic peasants was relevant when Marx wrote about it and the information era was supposed to make cities irrelevant but didn't, it made them even more important, right back to what to do about rural folk we do need and the ones we don't need).

And, um, we shouldn't kill the cities and that's what's happening. Profits of things like banks or whatever else in South Ontario have nothing to do with the revenues that don't stay in the hopefully contained "Golden" (quite rusty; public infrastructure, it takes public revenues to pay for that; businesses and citizens just use it) Horseshoe instead of expanding it out with this "Greater" Golden Horseshoe thing.

But if the quite buggy Blair Witch Project software will excuse me, my wife has had children roasting in the oven and it's time to eat. Eeeeeeeeeevil, to the core as everyone in Toronto is. What else do we do besides eating children "and such" ... I'm sure the software will tell "me." But it can't find the pm button to do it with.

What's up, Doc?

S-Ranger, don't you see its only fair that the Feds treat Ontario unfairly? If provinces like New Brunswick or Manitoba are doomed to be economic basketcases, we have to ensure that Ontario go down with them. It's called "Equality"! If you don't like it you can move down to the US you ruthless neocon!

"Got any spare change,mister?'

Aren't these guys hilarious, Missile? They whine about having to pay for us, but continually undermine attempts for us to become have provinces. East-west grid for electricity? They hate that idea. Alternative fuels like hydrogen? "Damned Kyoto-loving tree-huggers," they respond. Keep all of the banking and industry in Ontario. Don't let the transportation industry base itself in the centre of the country. Do your best to **** up agriculture.

They love to bitch about having to give us money, they are too blatantly ignorant to recognise the non-monetary things that we bring to the table and refuse to see that much of the money they make comes from the rest of Canada, and they sure as hell don't want us to do any better than we are.

Drive down any street or walk into any shopping mall in any city in Canada. The money we spend goes back to the Golden Horse**** or the Alberta oilpatch, or down south where their American customers give it back to them. That's never taken into consideration though. Not by the neo-separatist fools who worship nothing but money and live on seething hate and jealousy.

Oh, I know you just love to dismiss legitimate complaints as "neocon ranting" and ignore reality - I expect nothing else. As far as your east-west power grid, you go right ahead and built your power lines wherever the **** you want to: east to Ontario, west to B.C., or north to ****ing Nunavut. I don't care. Oh, I'm sorry, you probably wanted us to pay for that, too??

And thank you for the lessons of NDP economics: lets send bucket loads of money all over the country in the hopes that they might buy one of our products and get some of that money back?? Even if they buy something that somehow doesn't come from China, its actually built in Ontario, lets say 20% comes back to the company in profit, which is taxed so of that 20%, maybe 10% makes it back into Ontario government coffers. Its sounds great Rev. Tell you what - why don't you keep your hard earned dollars, or buy made in USA or China instead, we'll ship our manufacturing output down south, keep our own money in our own pockets and we'll call it even!!?? How does that sound instead?

I never used the word neo-con once in there, MMMikey. Do you require reading glasses?

Why not? We paid for the ****ing pipelines you send your oil and gas to the rest of the country with. Forgot about that, didn't you? You also forget that all of Canada, not just Ontario or Alberta, paid to get your oilsands up and working.

The point about the east-west grid, which you are obviously too ****ing ignorant to understand, is that the Ontario government keeps saying yes, then changing back to no to Manitoban hydro-electricity. We aren't going to build a damned thing until they give us a solid agreement.

As for the rest, quit whining MMMikey. When you buy something at the mall, that money flees your province as quickly as it flees mine. That's why Alberta is an economic one-trick pony.

It's absolutely absurd to say that Ontario is somehow being treated unfairly. If you are an accountant in Halifax making 80 grand you pay the exact same federal tax as an accountant making 80 grand in Kingston. The only reason Ontario pays more is because it HAS MORE PEOPLE. So NONE are being treated unfairly, that's a garbage argument. Again, go read the Chamber of Commerce's study, they do not even dispute that southern ontario is doing fine, and go reread the KPMG quotes that say Toronto has the most incentives of any of the studied cities, INCLUDING Detroit, Chicago, which are in the states where Southern Ontario competes. So there really is no issue there.

In Ontario Mike Harris ravaged the welfare and EI system, that was a political choice. It happened out east as well, but mostly by NECESSITY. Ontario has no problem paying first time principals in the school system $70,000 to start. McGuinty is breaking yet another promise and deregulating tuition, not because it's 'necessary', but because it's expedient. University administration spending has gone up 60% at universities in the past ten years. I've got news for you, with computer technology administration could almost literally be done away with completely. For money, my wife's boss was a dean of science, when he resigned that post, they 'made up' a 'vice president' position and tacked on 30 grand. He now makes over 100 grand. That is also a political choice.

In case the above text book writer has never heard of economics, an intro course would be helpful. Just because EI spending per unemployed person in PEI is greater than that spent in Ontario, doesn't mean that EACH unemployed person was paid that. Unemployment is far higher on the east coast, and there are far fewer people, hence the disparity. I've collected EI in both the maritimes and ontario, and in ontario not only could I collect longer but they paid for schooling. However, EI is divided into cities, not regions and it depends how there money is allocated. I was informed while living in Hamilton that they could pay for me and my technical schooling, however, right next door in Burlington I wouldn't have been able to collect a cent in EI.

But read some economic history, southern ontario didn't get to be how it is by accident, but by design. The Newfoundland Independant did their own study and found that the province would have been far better off if they had been independant and could control their own resources. The federal government took out far more than it ever paid into the province. As for EI and welfare, the feds put FAR more into southern ontario than the east coast, but they do it differently: namely, they do it by subsidizing employers and paying R&D costs, and throwing grant money at universities. PEI has ONE university, so sees little of that. In the maritimes it comes in the form of paying some of the health and education costs, that's it. Very little investment in infrastructure and almost none in economic development.

The amount the feds have just given Toyota is more than it gives to ACOA funding for three years. And it also benefits from increased insurance costs, which prop up still more investment in southern ontario. Insurance companies got in trouble with their investments-they don't even bother investing in southern ontario, but when trouble comes, every province except public insurance ones has skyrocketing premiums. And if a province dares mention public insurance, they get their american subsidiaries to threaten them with lawsuits under Nafta.

Of course southern ontario would be a basket case without the federation. There are no mines in southern ontario, there are no forests, there is no oil, there are barely any raw materials whatsoever. Southern ontario can't 'build' anything. So the federation makes sure they can get cheap materials for their plants, and even subsidizes the plants.

The economic union also made sure that the maritimes couldn't support their industries with legislation. They couldn't lock out or tax foreign banks and insurance companies, so now maritimers insurance costs go to southern ontario. Their telephone companies and media companies are all branch plants, even the CBC station in NB was privately owned unti the mid eighties.

And surprise surprise, when Martin's famous tax cuts kicked in, it was primarily high income earners who benefitted, and there are FAR more in Ontario than out east so of course they benefitted disproportionately.

As for 'welfare', and 'equalization', let's be clear here. New Brunswick gets 40% of it's budget from the federal government, so let's not pretend that if somehow the feds simply shut off the tap it would be anything other than what it would be-a third world region. Of course many in Ontario couldn't give a rat's ass, after all, it's southern ontarian insurance companies who finance most of the clearcutting in our forests, and subsidize their corporate buddies who rob natives of their land and resources. Ontarians never blink an eye over such things, let alone find them in their media, so why would they care if the maritimes were devastated.

In fact, this is exactly what the debate is about. A gutted government would be forced to sell off just about every industry it created and privatize others. This is when Ontario has always bought up industries and land at firesale prices in the maritimes.


You can write all the economic stats you want, colonizers always do, but in the end it doesn't come down to economics, it comes down to the fact that a region with 65% of the seats in the house can benefit disproportionately. And their 'pundits' still always complain that the people they stomped into the ground should have to dig their own grave.

Greetings fellow ruthless neocon American. [If only...one day we will reach the true land of Jesus, the New Jerusalem. Actually the wings are quite good in Buffalo with our fellow neocon right-wing chicken eaters; never the left wings.] Nice to see you back, fellow neocon nutcase. "We" neocon nutcases have to stick together. [I wonder if anyone in the Canadas even knows what a neocon is? Probably not. Perhaps "we" should explain it ... "our" group meetings with Pat Robertson, "The Reverend" Jerry Falwell, KKK, Jesse Jackson (for fun; to demontrate our superiorness to), Pat Buchanan, well "naming names" and all isn't part of "our code". Henry Kissinger will be at "our" next meeting and Our Lord [behind the Bushes; probably taking a leak] Tom Flanagan. See you there, for the final eeeeeeevil plotting. It's all coming together for "us."]

Sorry I wasn't around (I didn't even know that this forum existed) when you started the thread. But not much documentation that was suitable for the general public was out at the time, back when you started the thread (even for NDPers, and they're, well the entire Ontario caucus, is solidly behind the facts and skids of documentation that, well, do what documentation tends to do: document the facts -- not the other way around (as if McGuinty could figure anything out) and actually the Rae NDP Lunatics started the "fiscal imbalance" campaign (of late) back in 1990-95 <shudders> when the "imbalance" was "only" $2 billion.

But now, NDP, Liberal, Conservative, it's impossible not to admit to the "fiscal imbalances" other than by every Dept. of Finance in the Canadas, and their auditors, all declaring fraud on all financial statements of public accounts, for the last several decades.

And you nailed everything. As in you stated the facts, but there wasn't much around to back it up with. Now it's pointless for anyone to even try to deny anything. Well the point is to prove that "these federation" is hopeless (as is), put in yet another diplomatic effort with everything behind it now. [It's a surprise.]

If every major bank, they tend to know how to add and subtract numbers, and know where to find them, the IRPP (Courchene in particular, the guru of fiscal federalism; no one has ever argued with him and gotten away with it; other than in their own deluded heads, much like with the boneheads from the elsewheres in the Ontario forum; reduced to ranting and raving and the all-important fiscal factor -- Bugs Bunny) Canada Conference Board, Ontario Medical Association, well the list is very long, you might remember the "Enough of Not Enough" (of our own taxes back) campaign by the Toronto Board of Trade back in 2003 -- over 470,000 individual letters, not a petition, were dumped on, by those who heard about it in Toronto via City Hall or any number of sources, every Toronto MP, Sorbara, McGuinty, Dennis Mills (MP, Don Valley-East, the Toronto "lieutenant", worthless as usual, Martin's eyes and ears for the City of Toronto and area at the time), Volpe, no need to say anymore about that creature, every Toronto MP and Martin.

Over 470,000 individual letters piled into their offices in about 2 months, with plenty of time to address it in the Ontario 2003-04 and/or confederate 2003-04 budget -- the one McGuinty broke the laws he swore to uphold around, raising taxes without a referendum, not just a broken campaign promise but agains the law (Taxpayer Protection and Balanced Budged Act passed by the Harris Conservatives; probably the best government this country has ever seen given the circumstances and with the bulls..t aside; but not many people in the Ontarios would agree today because they've been told to forget every reason they elected him for -- twice, so they do, and Toronto got nailed but by the Rae NDP Lunatics and confederates and "federation", not the Harris Conservatives); urinated, deficated, spat on and laughed at breaking the law -- and the contract with the Canadian Taxpayers Federation it (the McGuinty) signed and wove around with much fanfare, promising not to raise taxes, in writing, with the CTF. [Give a politician a piece of paper and think it means anything? The CTF has much to learn; but it started in the prairies so it's not surprising.]

Then they sued Sorbara (good riddance bonehead) and McGuinty who then decided to "amend" the Taxpayer Protection and Balanced Budget Act (deficit budget too along with raising taxes with no referendum -- an option, regardless of any laws they swore to uphold, that only real Liberals and worse, neo-commie/socialist NDP Lunatics would take) -- by repealing it to avoid having to pay the fines and take the pay cuts: as if we needed more proof that all the insults to the words "systems" and "structures" (political), in this mess accomplish are elected dictatorships: or worse as the confederates demonstrated wasting our time and money for a year, last season, not even getting a budget out without having to extend the "session" and seeing nothing but partisan political "party" representation and screw the people because the political "parties" are far more important. And they're at it again. Everyone wants ridiculous election circus act marketing "campaigns" and elections at Christmas. Freaks.

If the Ontario Chamber of Commerce and everything involved in its Phase 1 report and the rest and all three political "parties" in Ontario (for the first time ever) and everything else being on the same page (due to facts) weren't enough:

Source: --

...And a confederate election coming up and Ontario is going to decide who wins; if anyone. It's not over, but the beginning is over. Best of luck to any political party, trying to argue with every business that matters in the Canadas: and their employees, which leaves, um, no one left as taxpayers.

Or these and plenty more at the Atlantic [Canada] Institute for Market Research, which certainly isn't in Ontario:

“How to Fix Equalization to Encourage Growth. (--) Atlantic Institute for Market Studies web site.

“Help that Hurts.” (--) Atlantic Institute for Market Studies web site.

And plenty more with the usual: documentation (the sources, the facts, right from the governments as usual) that simply cannot be denied. The latter document is particularly enlightening; but they worked with the Ontario Chamber of Commerce on its last report, which made it quite enlightening -- other than to preachers who are used to taking one sentence out of context and claiming that they mean the opposite of what they do.

I'd sign off with the secret ruthless neocon radical nutase sign-off: but then it wouldn't be a secret and radical neocon commie-socialist nutcases could sneak into "our secret meetings" ... in the U.S., at um, that neocon secret hideout. In Texas. To pray for more war with the mooselums. And such.

The Star

Pathetic. The gravy train is starting to seize up. The Rest of Canada better watch out.[/url]