29 billion dollars and no competitive bids:

#juan

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When did we get so rich?

Canada's F-35 Fighter Jets Could Cost $29.3 Billion, Budget Officer Says - Bloomberg

It's bad enough that we didn't get competitive bids but there seems to be no limit on the cost either.

Canada's F-35 Fighter Jets Could Cost $29.3 Billion, Budget Officer Says

By Greg Quinn and Theophilos Argitis - Mar 10, 2011 11:45 AM PT

Canada’s parliamentary budget officer said plans by Prime Minister Stephen Harper government to acquire 65 of Lockheed Martin Corp.’s F-35 Joint Strike Fighters aircraft may cost about $12 billion more than estimated, fueling speculation opposition parties may seek to bring down the government later this month.
The budget office’s figures show the government is misleading Canadians on the costs of the fighter purchase, undermining the credibility of their budget, lawmakers from the main opposition Liberal Party said.
The report comes a day after the Speaker of the House of Commons found the government violated lawmakers’ privileges by not disclosing information about the cost of some of its proposed legislation. The leader of the main opposition Liberal Party, Michael Ignatieff, said yesterday he is keeping “all options open” including a non-confidence motion that could trigger an early election.
It “hasn’t been a good week” for the government, Liberal lawmaker Dominic Leblanc told reporters today, adding opposition lawmakers will have a “number of occasions” later this month to bring down the government in parliamentary votes.
Budget Officer Report

Canada may spend $29.3 billion if it proceeds to buy 65 of Lockheed Martin Corp. (LMT)’s F-35 Joint Strike Fighters aircraft, Parliament’s budget officer said in a report today. The figure includes the cost to purchase and maintain the aircraft for 30 years. The defense department has estimated a cost of $17.6 billion, the report said.

Canada should ask for competitive bids right now. The price of these damned aircraft
has just about doubled. The reason for competitive bids couldn't be more obvious.
 

EagleSmack

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Canada should ask for competitive bids right now. The price of these damned aircraft
has just about doubled. The reason for competitive bids couldn't be more obvious.

How can you competitively bid an F-35 Juan? It is not as if a number of companies make it. Lockheed-Martin already won the bid to make the next gen strike aircraft.

Also, Canada helped design and build the F-35 so they already have a stake in these aircraft.
 

#juan

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How can you competitively bid an F-35 Juan? It is not as if a number of companies make it. Lockheed-Martin already won the bid to make the next gen strike aircraft.

Also, Canada helped design and build the F-35 so they already have a stake in these aircraft.

The Euro-fighter would have been more than competitive with the F-35 at the new price. It sounds like we are giving Lockheed-
Martin a blank check.
 

Unforgiven

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May 28, 2007
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If we really need to have fighters like these we could build our own which would not only build our own military infrastructure, provide needed jobs, but allow us to have the air force we need to have if we are to become what it is we would be if we really did need to have these fighters.

It's a pocket lining, fleecing of the tax payer yet again.
 

EagleSmack

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If we really need to have fighters like these we could build our own which would not only build our own military infrastructure, provide needed jobs, but allow us to have the air force we need to have if we are to become what it is we would be if we really did need to have these fighters.

It's a pocket lining, fleecing of the tax payer yet again.

Well it was a joint build so it is just as much your plane as it is anyone elses.

Canadians helped design and build this jet. Canadians will help build the next batch as well.

In short, you aren't simply buying them from the US. Canada, the US, and a number of other countries designed, tested, and built these F-35's.

Why go back to the drawing board? What makes you think that by building your own is going to make it any cheaper?
 

Unforgiven

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May 28, 2007
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Well it was a joint build so it is just as much your plane as it is anyone elses.

Canadians helped design and build this jet. Canadians will help build the next batch as well.

In short, you aren't simply buying them from the US. Canada, the US, and a number of other countries designed, tested, and built these F-35's.

Why go back to the drawing board? What makes you think that by building your own is going to make it any cheaper?

Well we need a lot more than 65 of them for sure, if we're to become the hawks some want us to become. No use going into a gun fight with just a couple of bullets. Same with the Navy, we're going to need Carriers to haul these around the world and so should get going on that too. It's better all around if we do it all in house. Before long the US will come to get us to make theirs I suppose up until the public gets angry that those jobs are being done by Canadians. But until then, chaching!
 

Mowich

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When did we get so rich?

Canada's F-35 Fighter Jets Could Cost $29.3 Billion, Budget Officer Says - Bloomberg

It's bad enough that we didn't get competitive bids but there seems to be no limit on the cost either.

Canada's F-35 Fighter Jets Could Cost $29.3 Billion, Budget Officer Says

By Greg Quinn and Theophilos Argitis - Mar 10, 2011 11:45 AM PT

Canada’s parliamentary budget officer said plans by Prime Minister Stephen Harper government to acquire 65 of Lockheed Martin Corp.’s F-35 Joint Strike Fighters aircraft may cost about $12 billion more than estimated, fueling speculation opposition parties may seek to bring down the government later this month.
The budget office’s figures show the government is misleading Canadians on the costs of the fighter purchase, undermining the credibility of their budget, lawmakers from the main opposition Liberal Party said.
The report comes a day after the Speaker of the House of Commons found the government violated lawmakers’ privileges by not disclosing information about the cost of some of its proposed legislation. The leader of the main opposition Liberal Party, Michael Ignatieff, said yesterday he is keeping “all options open” including a non-confidence motion that could trigger an early election.
It “hasn’t been a good week” for the government, Liberal lawmaker Dominic Leblanc told reporters today, adding opposition lawmakers will have a “number of occasions” later this month to bring down the government in parliamentary votes.
Budget Officer Report

Canada may spend $29.3 billion if it proceeds to buy 65 of Lockheed Martin Corp. (LMT)’s F-35 Joint Strike Fighters aircraft, Parliament’s budget officer said in a report today. The figure includes the cost to purchase and maintain the aircraft for 30 years. The defense department has estimated a cost of $17.6 billion, the report said.

Canada should ask for competitive bids right now. The price of these damned aircraft
has just about doubled. The reason for competitive bids couldn't be more obvious.

Please correct me if I am wrong, but I understand that Canada has already placed the order for the jets so any discussion of bids is belaboring a dead horse.
 

EagleSmack

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The Euro-fighter would have been more than competitive with the F-35 at the new price. It sounds like we are giving Lockheed-
Martin a blank check.

Probably because you invested in, helped design, and helped build the F-35 Program and not the Eurofighter.
 
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EagleSmack

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Same with the Navy, we're going to need Carriers to haul these around the world and so should get going on that too.

Since when did Canada need carriers to haul around their aircraft. How do you move your CF-18's around?


It's better all around if we do it all in house. Before long the US will come to get us to make theirs I suppose up until the public gets angry that those jobs are being done by Canadians. But until then, chaching!

Now this is crazy talk. It was a joint venture.

If you went and designed your own you would have wasted all your investments on the F-35. Once you put a "C" in front of the "F" and slap a Maple Leaf on the side all will be well.
 

Unforgiven

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Since when did Canada need carriers to haul around their aircraft. How do you move your CF-18's around?

Well if we are going to become peace makers instead of peace keepers, we're going to need the right gear to do that. I don't think anyone can dispute that the US has the right gear to bring war to another nation. Our country is no smaller than theirs and F35s don't just fly around the world unsupported. So it stands to reason that we need to build our only military industrial complex as other nations have to support or foreign policies and force our will on others if they fail to agree with them.

Now this is crazy talk. It was a joint venture.

I understand but we don't need sloppy second from anyone. If we're going to stand on our own two feet then we need to go through the process of first standing up.

If you went and designed your own you would have wasted all your investments on the F-35. Once you put a "C" in front of the "F" and slap a Maple Leaf on the side all will be well.

They aren't going to last forever. As a matter of fact by the time they are in the air new ideas will already be in testing and moving toward production. Having taken these measures, we will need to secure our own air space from all others which means walking the walk not just talking the talk.

If we have to force the Russians, or the US for that matter, out of our airspace, then we'll need to goods to do so. Not to mention to secure out border. Our resources are deep and diverse which could raise the stakes in the future.
 

EagleSmack

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Well if we are going to become peace makers instead of peace keepers, we're going to need the right gear to do that. I don't think anyone can dispute that the US has the right gear to bring war to another nation. Our country is no smaller than theirs and F35s don't just fly around the world unsupported. So it stands to reason that we need to build our only military industrial complex as other nations have to support or foreign policies and force our will on others if they fail to agree with them.

Well Peace Keepers is another topic that makes me shake my head a little. Maybe another time on that.

All of our aircraft do not use USN Aircraft Carriers. Our USAF planes cannot land on carriers.

Canada's AF does fly all around the world but it is supported and it isn't by aircraft carriers. Your jets fly to a forward base along with your transport planes carrying the squadron gear, admin, ground crews, etc. The whole squadron moves.


I understand but we don't need sloppy second from anyone. If we're going to stand on our own two feet then we need to go through the process of first standing up.

THIS is what I think is bugging you... the sloppy seconds.

However you aren't getting sloppy seconds. Canada helped design the F-35. It helped build it and will continue to build it. That includes all of the USAF-USN F-35s that we buy. Canada will help build ours as well.

You aren't getting sloppy seconds. Sure you didn't build it on your own but neither did the US.


They aren't going to last forever. As a matter of fact by the time they are in the air new ideas will already be in testing and moving toward production. Having taken these measures, we will need to secure our own air space from all others which means walking the walk not just talking the talk.

Well then perhaps the next time Canadians like you can ask your government to design and build the Next Gen Fighter without international cooperation.


If we have to force the Russians, or the US for that matter, out of our airspace, then we'll need to goods to do so. Not to mention to secure out border. Our resources are deep and diverse which could raise the stakes in the future.

I'll just ignore the US part of that as it does not make sense.

The goods are the F-35. It is better than anything the Russians have at this time.
 

petros

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The F-35 is made by the best of the best designers each getting component contracts which include both American and Canadian companies. It will be a quite sometime before we'll need to invest in another platform.

If you want to live the good life as part of the New World Order then put up and shut up or else be prepared to pay $10L for gasoline and $20 for a loaf of bread.

You hands won't get any less bloodier by not having these aircraft.
 

PoliticalNick

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A few things to note that don't seem to come up in any debate over this issue.

Robert Stevens, Chairman of the Board and CEO of Lockheed Martin is also a director of Monsanto who is under investigation by the US DoJ for unfair business strategy and licensing.

Gwendolyn King, President of L/M - is also a director of Monsanto, she was also a director of Countrywide financial right up the the dramatic failure of the banking system.

Pete Aldrich Jr - Board member of L/M, serve as undersecretary of defense during the bid/design process for the joint strike fighter platform.

James Loy - Board member of L/M - Served as deputy secretary of Homeland Security during the bid/design process. He is also lead counsel for the Cohen Group, A major consulting firm used by the government of US and Canda

Joseph W Ralston - Board member of L/M has a long history - Vice Chairman of The Cohen Group since March 2003. Retired from active duty in March 2003. Commander, U.S. European Command and Supreme Allied Commander Europe, NATO, Mons, Belgium from May 2000 to January 2003; Vice Chairman, Joint Chiefs of Staff, Washington, D.C. from March 1996 to April 2000; and currently serves as a director of The Timken Company and URS Corporation.

The list goes on (Board of Directors).

All of these people have strong ties to military and govt leadership and also to big money investment banks and some shady corporations.

It is just another case of the rich and powerful pulling the wool over our eyes in order to get even richer and more powerful and gain further control of the people through economic stratification.
 

#juan

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Aug 30, 2005
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A few things to note that don't seem to come up in any debate over this issue.

Robert Stevens, Chairman of the Board and CEO of Lockheed Martin is also a director of Monsanto who is under investigation by the US DoJ for unfair business strategy and licensing.

Gwendolyn King, President of L/M - is also a director of Monsanto, she was also a director of Countrywide financial right up the the dramatic failure of the banking system.

Pete Aldrich Jr - Board member of L/M, serve as undersecretary of defense during the bid/design process for the joint strike fighter platform.

James Loy - Board member of L/M - Served as deputy secretary of Homeland Security during the bid/design process. He is also lead counsel for the Cohen Group, A major consulting firm used by the government of US and Canda

Joseph W Ralston - Board member of L/M has a long history - Vice Chairman of The Cohen Group since March 2003. Retired from active duty in March 2003. Commander, U.S. European Command and Supreme Allied Commander Europe, NATO, Mons, Belgium from May 2000 to January 2003; Vice Chairman, Joint Chiefs of Staff, Washington, D.C. from March 1996 to April 2000; and currently serves as a director of The Timken Company and URS Corporation.

The list goes on (Board of Directors).

All of these people have strong ties to military and govt leadership and also to big money investment banks and some shady corporations.

It is just another case of the rich and powerful pulling the wool over our eyes in order to get even richer and more powerful and gain further control of the people through economic stratification.

There is another problem. Britain was originally going to buy a hundred and thirty odd F-35s but that has changed:

[FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]Now the U.K. says it will slash the number of F-35s it is buying; it hasn’t said clearly how small the buy will be, but there are some suggestions it will be only around 50 units. That means the U.K. will be buying fewer aircraft than the likes of Australia, Israel, and possibly the Netherlands, yet industry in those countries have secured significantly less in terms of industrial return. [/FONT]
Doubling the price after the order is signed can't be good for business.
 

Mowich

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A few things to note that don't seem to come up in any debate over this issue.

Robert Stevens, Chairman of the Board and CEO of Lockheed Martin is also a director of Monsanto who is under investigation by the US DoJ for unfair business strategy and licensing.

Gwendolyn King, President of L/M - is also a director of Monsanto, she was also a director of Countrywide financial right up the the dramatic failure of the banking system.

Pete Aldrich Jr - Board member of L/M, serve as undersecretary of defense during the bid/design process for the joint strike fighter platform.

James Loy - Board member of L/M - Served as deputy secretary of Homeland Security during the bid/design process. He is also lead counsel for the Cohen Group, A major consulting firm used by the government of US and Canda

Joseph W Ralston - Board member of L/M has a long history - Vice Chairman of The Cohen Group since March 2003. Retired from active duty in March 2003. Commander, U.S. European Command and Supreme Allied Commander Europe, NATO, Mons, Belgium from May 2000 to January 2003; Vice Chairman, Joint Chiefs of Staff, Washington, D.C. from March 1996 to April 2000; and currently serves as a director of The Timken Company and URS Corporation.

The list goes on (Board of Directors).

All of these people have strong ties to military and govt leadership and also to big money investment banks and some shady corporations.

It is just another case of the rich and powerful pulling the wool over our eyes in order to get even richer and more powerful and gain further control of the people through economic stratification.

And who is to say that by opening the bidding process to other companies we will not find more of the same? I don't like Monsanto either but they are not building the damn jets.
 

PoliticalNick

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And who is to say that by opening the bidding process to other companies we will not find more of the same? I don't like Monsanto either but they are not building the damn jets.

I agree.

My point is that ALL of the decisions are being made by the elitist rich of our society who always will make great personal profit from the decisions they make. It is personal greed and the love of power that drives the people making the deals not the benefit of the general population.

and when the same people who are in trouble for their practices at Monsanto are running the show for the JSF you have to stop and think if they bring those practices to this program.
 

#juan

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Please correct me if I am wrong, but I understand that Canada has already placed the order for the jets so any discussion of bids is belaboring a dead horse.

Yes, they have already placed the order, but at the original price. How in hell does an outfit like Lockheed Martin make a mistake that doubles the price of a contract of that size?
 

Mowich

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I agree.

My point is that ALL of the decisions are being made by the elitist rich of our society who always will make great personal profit from the decisions they make. It is personal greed and the love of power that drives the people making the deals not the benefit of the general population.

and when the same people who are in trouble for their practices at Monsanto are running the show for the JSF you have to stop and think if they bring those practices to this program.

'Elitist rich' huh. In spite of being from Russian nobility, Michael Ignatieff but he is hardly frockling in funds. Stephen Harper isn't stinking rich, neither are Jackie or Gilles. So where do you keep getting this elitist rich nonsense from anyway? They were the ones making decisions about these jets not the board of directors at LM. What is the JSF?