Why don't we send water-bombers to help Japan?

[Omicron]

After a nuclear fuel rod is spent, it's still radioactive and hot... just not as hot as required to drive a turbine.

The analogy would be like when you burn wood. First you get a flame, and then you get embers.

The spent rods are normally dunked into a giant storage tank that looks like a big swimming pool and kept there for a couple decades until they cool off.

If you don't keep them cool they get hot enough to start evaporating, and you get gaseous radioactive iodine and cesium steaming through the atmosphere.

You have to keep replacing the water in the pool, because it gets hot enough to steam off... but it's not radioactive the way the metal from the rods would be if they steamed off.

The problem in Japan is not that the reactors didn't shut down correctly. They did.

The problem is, the backup generators driving the water pumps replacing water in the cooling pool got knocked out.

That means the cooling water eventually steams off, and when gone, the rods start to overheat, and then they evaporate into an explosive cloud of radioactive iodine and cesium.

The short-term solution is to knock the roof off the building housing the cooling pond, and then fly over it with water bombers to splash the spent rods with hit after hit of ocean water.

Why isn't Canada doing that?

For that matter why isn't Russia helping? They're closer and they have the biggest water bombers.

 

[Mowich]

Thank you for clearly elucidating the problem with the nuclear plants, Omicron. In one post you were able to help me understand the challenges far better than any of the news reports I have seen on TV - most of them are into Armageddon mode.

 

[karrie]

Is this your own observation Omicron or someone else's you're repeating? If it's your own, why are you posting it on here and not posing that question to our government?

If it's an observation you're repeating, a suggestion that they've obviously recieved, then perhaps there are safety issues.

And, perhaps there is the small issue of displacement through splashing? Often when you try to spray water into a container using a hose, for example, you end up with less water in the container, not more, due to the pressure. I'd assume water bombers would pose the same risk.

 

[Machjo]

I was reading on CBC today that the Us has started clearing out some of its personnel.

What? NATO knows how to kick @ss on the battlefield but is at a loss when a natural disaster strikes?

Maybe we need a separate NATO alliance trained to know what to do when there's no bad guy to chase?

 

[lone wolf]

Don't they have to be encased in concrete - something like Chernobyl?

 

[Mowich]

CNN is broadcasting images of US helicopters bombing sea water into one of the plants with help from fire crews on the ground. Can't see what difference water bombers would make but I don't know if Canada has been asked to provide water bombers nor Russia for that matter. Neither country can just jump in their planes and fly over there.

 

[karrie]

I was reading on CBC today that the Us has started clearing out some of its personnel.

What? NATO knows how to kick @ss on the battlefield but is at a loss when a natural disaster strikes?

Maybe we need a separate NATO alliance trained to know what to do when there's no bad guy to chase?

Do you think soldiers, peace officers, and relief workers should be trained on how to deal with a nuclear meltdown, and expected to withstand radiation? Or does it perhaps make sense to take workers out of harm's way and let the people who have the proper training attempt to contain the issue first? Japan has enough people, well trained people, to deal with the meltdown. Throwing more bodies at it won't solve it.

 

[lone wolf]

Water bombers disperse over too large an area. This requires something that can empty a swimming pool's contents directly into the swimming pool

 

[TenPenny]

There are two things happening - one is that in some units, the water in the storage ponds (oddly enough, they are located in the reactor building) is evaporating, letting the rod bundles heat up and/or melt. The other is that some units, it's the reactors themselves that are going.

Considering that the helicopters can't possibly dump enough water to make a significant difference, and the heli crews are limited to 40 SECONDS above the reactors, in order to limit exposure, I don't see that sending water bombers from Canada would help.

I know they were going to bring in water cannons and try hosing down the buildings from as close as they dare, it will be something if they are able to do it.

 

[cdn_bc_ca]

I don't think it will help. First of all, nobody knows how much water is in the cooling pond. The US says it's all gone... while the owners of the plant say that there is some still there. If the US is correct and the water is all gone, then you would need enough water to fill a swimming pool that is about 30 feet deep. My guess is that only a few meters of the rods are exposed but even then, no water bomber can deliver that much water in such a short period of time. Secondly, water bombers are planes which means it's designed to "spray" water over a large area which would mean most of the water will miss the target. Even the helicopters hovering directly overhead cannot drop the water directly on the pond because of the wind.

I think a better and more accurate use of the water would be the water cannons. They are far more accurate in placing water and they used it to put out the fires at the oil refinery so those are the ones that should be used... not the proposed ones we've seen on TV which are used for riot control.

More importantly, the top priority should be to restore power and get the backup pumps working ASAP... But I think the problem is that the area is so radioactive that nobody can stand there for more than 5 minutes without risking serious health issues.

 

[Omicron]

Is this your own observation Omicron or someone else's you're repeating? If it's your own, why are you posting it on here and not posing that question to our government?

If it's an observation you're repeating, a suggestion that they've obviously recieved, then perhaps there are safety issues.

And, perhaps there is the small issue of displacement through splashing? Often when you try to spray water into a container using a hose, for example, you end up with less water in the container, not more, due to the pressure. I'd assume water bombers would pose the same risk.

It's my own observation. I've had nine years experience with the technology in a non-commercial capacity, but the issues are basically the same.

I have submitted the suggestion to government, but all my contacts are in the Senate, so it's kind'a ethereal how that might gravitate to action. Now I'm just waiting to see what they're going to do.

Poor Japan. First they get nuked by an enemy, and then they nuke themselves.

There's just something too strange about this planet sometimes, but at least on a psychological level they've kind'a prepped themselves for stuff like this, what with all their Godzilla movies.

 

[Dexter Sinister]

The problem is, the backup generators driving the water pumps replacing water in the cooling pool got knocked out.

There's a little more going on that that. The reactors were shut down alright, but "shut down" in this context doesn't mean what it does in ordinary English, they're not really turned off in any real sense. Even with the control rods* pushed all the way in, which is what shut down means, the reactors are still generating heat at about 7% capacity and still have to be cooled. That system failed too, and if the reactor cores aren't cooled they'll eventually melt down. Containment has been breached on at least a couple of the reactors as well, and there's been significant damage to several of the cores because of the coolant failure. The plant was designed to withstand only a magnitude 7 quake and a tsunami 3 to 4 meters high, and it got hit by a magnitude 9 quake and a 10 meter tsunami. It's not as bad as Chernobyl was, that plant suffered loss of coolant at full power and scattered radionuclides over a wide area that won't be safe to inhabit for another 300 years, but core meltdown remains a very real possibility and the situation is profoundly dangerous. I think it's going to get a lot worse before it gets better.


*Control rods are a neutron absorbing material, probably cadmium in reactors of that design, that get pushed in among the fuel bundles to stop the chain reaction in the core, but fission, and thus heat generation, is still going on. Can't turn that off.

 

[cdn_bc_ca]

Also, what I've gathered from watching TV, I've learned that these reactors were built using designs from the '70's... which puts the spent fuel rods on top of the reactor core and, since there is no more reaction, they are not encased as heavily as the core itself. It only needs to cool the rods down. Hence, this is why the situation with spent fuel rods burning is more serious than that of the other problem.

The other thing is that the owners of the plant, Tokyo Electric, have a poor track record for safety, fudging safety reports, and in some instances, outright lying... One can draw similarities to BP and the Gulf disaster.

 

[darkbeaver]

Pentagon Cover-up of Data on Fukushima Disaster



Kurt Nimmo
Prison Planet.com
Thursday, March 17, 2011
The Japan Times reports the Pentagon will send an unmanned Global Hawk high-altitude reconnaissance aircraft over the deteriorating Fukushima nuclear complex today.
“Photographs taken by the plane equipped with infrared sensors could provide a useful clue to what is occurring inside the reactor buildings, around which high-level radiation has been detected,” the news source reports.
The flight is basically unnecessary and represents PR spin. Both the Pentagon and the Japanese government know full well the severity of the situation at the Fukushima plant and they are not releasing this information to either the Japanese or American people.

 

[EagleSmack]

Do you think soldiers, peace officers, and relief workers should be trained on how to deal with a nuclear meltdown, and expected to withstand radiation? Or does it perhaps make sense to take workers out of harm's way and let the people who have the proper training attempt to contain the issue first? Japan has enough people, well trained people, to deal with the meltdown. Throwing more bodies at it won't solve it.

Machjo just got excited hearing about the US repositioning people and wanted to make it look like a mass exodus.

 

[darkbeaver]

Never waste a good crisis. somebody said that

 

[TenPenny]

Pentagon Cover-up of Data on Fukushima Disaster



Kurt Nimmo
Prison Planet.com
Thursday, March 17, 2011
The Japan Times reports the Pentagon will send an unmanned Global Hawk high-altitude reconnaissance aircraft over the deteriorating Fukushima nuclear complex today.
“Photographs taken by the plane equipped with infrared sensors could provide a useful clue to what is occurring inside the reactor buildings, around which high-level radiation has been detected,” the news source reports.
The flight is basically unnecessary and represents PR spin. Both the Pentagon and the Japanese government know full well the severity of the situation at the Fukushima plant and they are not releasing this information to either the Japanese or American people.

Actually, the Americans have been releasing more and better information than the Japanese.

 

[EagleSmack]

Actually, the Americans have been releasing more and better information than the Japanese.

That's a culture thing I would say.

Who else can have 3 explosions at a Nuke Plant live on TV and say that there is nothing to worry about...the Japanese.

 

[Risus]

CNN is broadcasting images of US helicopters bombing sea water into one of the plants with help from fire crews on the ground. Can't see what difference water bombers would make but I don't know if Canada has been asked to provide water bombers nor Russia for that matter. Neither country can just jump in their planes and fly over there.

Actually, the helicopters can target a specific area, whereas the water bombers cannot.

Water bombers disperse over too large an area. This requires something that can empty a swimming pool's contents directly into the swimming pool

I agree. Sorry, I didn't read your post before making mine!

 

[TenPenny]

The helicopters are Japanese military copters, so they're not US helicopters.