Why are people poor?

lone wolf

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Nov 25, 2006
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Some folks are born into it. Poverty, for them, is a tough hole to climb from - especially when faced by oppositions and judgements from people a bit higher up on the ladder.

Some have encountered harsh reality - an on-the-job accident maybe? - and have had to divest themselves of assets during an always too-long wait for social safety nets to help out.

There's two...
 

Avro

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Feb 12, 2007
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I'll wager not one of those people has seen poverty up close.

Leave it to the Post to publish something about pitting classes against each other.

Divide and conquer.
 

JLM

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lone wolf;1387942[B said:
]Some folks are born into it. Poverty, for them, is a tough hole to climb from - especially when faced by oppositions and judgements from people a bit higher up on the ladder.[/B]

Some have encountered harsh reality - an on-the-job accident maybe? - and have had to divest themselves of assets during an always too-long wait for social safety nets to help out.

There's two...

From my own experience as a kid I'd say it makes some people vow they will never again be in that situation.
 

#juan

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Some folks are born into it. Poverty, for them, is a tough hole to climb from - especially when faced by oppositions and judgements from people a bit higher up on the ladder.

Some have encountered harsh reality - an on-the-job accident maybe? - and have had to divest themselves of assets during an always too-long wait for social safety nets to help out.

There's two...
Making it mandatory for kids to finish high school would be good. Most kids would finish high school
by age 17. This would at least give them a choice for secondary education. Most universities and
tech schools require high school as a prerequisite.
 

karrie

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Jan 6, 2007
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Okay, the article kind of annoys me because it's talking about poverty, but showing a homeless person sleeping on the street. Homelessness and poverty do not go hand in hand. Canada has tons of social programs to ensure that poor people do not need to sleep on the street. People end up sleeping on the street for many reasons, few of which are directly related to poverty, and more related to mental illness and addiction.

And even in poverty, I see most Canadian 'poor' as being luxury poor. You're poor if you can't afford to put your kids in hockey or buy name brand clothes. You're poor if cigarette money ate all your grocery money. You're poor if your booze fund came before your electricity. We have a bad habit as a society of looking at the luxuries first, both when judging someone's financial situation, and when budgeting our own finances. It creates a mess of financial troubles for families. And no, when I point out to my friend on welfare, who complains about being too broke to afford rent, that maybe she should cancel her internet and Blackberry, I'm not apologetic, nor do I feel I'm waging some class war. I'm simply pointing out that the luxuries in life have to wait sometimes. I grew up in a household where my mom had to scrimp for groceries, but dad's cigarette and beer supply was always well stocked. Do I think the poor bring it upon themselves sometimes? hell yes. Do I think 'the poor' are any different than me? Hell no.
 

lone wolf

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From my own experience as a kid I'd say it makes some people vow they will never again be in that situation.
Where do they build the networks or the social skills if they have to pack up and flee the rent guy every few months? Among whom do they build what they can? Sure they vow to never again be in that situation, but what choice do they really have? It's too easy to cast judgement when you're insulated from the realities they live. Even the student loans people want to know about the parents - and award based partly on their record. Crime is available - but frowned upon - or they can quit school and get a dead-end job "at the mill"

What happens when the mill closes?
 

earth_as_one

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Ideally life's basic necessities should be free. Then no one would be poor and you could eliminate minimum wage.

The basic essentials could be free if we taxed the hell out of cigarettes, booze, gambling, internet access.... But that would mean the people with jobs and money would have to buy the basic necessities for everyone, even homeless drug addict prostitutes...
 

JLM

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Making it mandatory for kids to finish high school would be good. Most kids would finish high school
by age 17. This would at least give them a choice for secondary education. Most universities and
tech schools require high school as a prerequisite.

Or maybe it would be better to get them sorted out after grade 10- we don't everyone to be a doctor, lawyer or accountant. People have enough education at the end of grade 10 to start training for a trade- or possibly they just need grade 12 standing in one subject like math- as you probably well know there are a hell of a lot of "useless people" (for lack of a better more politcally correct term) going to university. I think determination and strength of character trump education. Just my opinion #Juan.
 

Avro

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There are so many ways people end up in poverty....being lazy is just one factor.

The shrinking middle class is one problem and no real increase in mean income for the last thirty years or since the decline of organised labor.

Just like that joke that Tonn posted yesterday.

A Rich Capitalist, Tea Party Member, and Union Member sit around the table. At the center of the table sits a plate with a dozen cookies.

The Rich Capitalist takes eleven cookies, then whispers to the Tea Party Member, "Watch out for that union guy. He's got his eye on your cookie."

Some truth to it.
 

karrie

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Jan 6, 2007
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Where do they build the networks or the social skills if they have to pack up and flee the rent guy every few months? Among whom do they build what they can? Sure they vow to never again be in that situation, but what choice do they really have? It's too easy to cast judgement when you're insulated from the realities they live. Even the student loans people want to know about the parents - and award based partly on their record. Crime is available - but frowned upon - or they can quit school and get a dead-end job "at the mill"

What happens when the mill closes?

What you describe in the beginning is the difference between people who are circumstancially poor (I grew up farming, I knew a lot of people who were circumstancially poor), and those who are culturally/educationally poor (ie., no one ever taught them how to budget, how to interview for a job, how to run a household, how to set a goal). Not all poor people are like other poor people.
 

JLM

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Okay, the article kind of annoys me because it's talking about poverty, but showing a homeless person sleeping on the street. Homelessness and poverty do not go hand in hand. Canada has tons of social programs to ensure that poor people do not need to sleep on the street. People end up sleeping on the street for many reasons, few of which are directly related to poverty, and more related to mental illness and addiction.

And even in poverty, I see most Canadian 'poor' as being luxury poor. You're poor if you can't afford to put your kids in hockey or buy name brand clothes. You're poor if cigarette money ate all your grocery money. You're poor if your booze fund came before your electricity. We have a bad habit as a society of looking at the luxuries first, both when judging someone's financial situation, and when budgeting our own finances. It creates a mess of financial troubles for families. And no, when I point out to my friend on welfare, who complains about being too broke to afford rent, that maybe she should cancel her internet and Blackberry, I'm not apologetic, nor do I feel I'm waging some class war. I'm simply pointing out that the luxuries in life have to wait sometimes. I grew up in a household where my mom had to scrimp for groceries, but dad's cigarette and beer supply was always well stocked. Do I think the poor bring it upon themselves sometimes? hell yes. Do I think 'the poor' are any different than me? Hell no.

You've said a lot, Karrie and a lot I wouldn't have dared to. Put in a nutshell it has a lot to do with priorities.

Ideally life's basic necessities should be free. Then no one would be poor and you could eliminate minimum wage.

The basic essentials could be free if we taxed the hell out of cigarettes, booze, gambling, internet access.... But that would mean the people with jobs and money would have to buy the basic necessities for everyone, even homeless drug addict prostitutes...

Free for whom?
 

lone wolf

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Nov 25, 2006
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In the bush near Sudbury
What you describe in the beginning is the difference between people who are circumstancially poor (I grew up farming, I knew a lot of people who were circumstancially poor), and those who are culturally/educationally poor (ie., no one ever taught them how to budget, how to interview for a job, how to run a household, how to set a goal). Not all poor people are like other poor people.
Agreed.... That's why there won't be any 'think-tank' solutions because there are a whole spectrum of causes for poverty.

I was a farm kid too. Heck, I didn't even know we were "poor" until I went to high school - where they weren't all farm kids.

I sure learned work ethics on that farm....
 

JLM

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Nov 27, 2008
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There are so many ways people end up in poverty....being lazy is just one factor.

The shrinking middle class is one problem and no real increase in mean income for the last thirty years or since the decline of organised labor.

Just like that joke that Tonn posted yesterday.



Some truth to it.

Or even more truthfully...............ALL of the cookies. :lol:
 

#juan

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Aug 30, 2005
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Or maybe it would be better to get them sorted out after grade 10- we don't everyone to be a doctor, lawyer or accountant. People have enough education at the end of grade 10 to start training for a trade- or possibly they just need grade 12 standing in one subject like math- as you probably well know there are a hell of a lot of "useless people" (for lack of a better more politcally correct term) going to university. I think determination and strength of character trump education. Just my opinion #Juan.

My idea was, that staying in school would give them a choice. Not everyone wants to be, or is capable of being a doctor or a
lawyer, or an accountant. By the same token Not all are suited to be a plumber or a tradesman. Having grade twelve gives
young people choices........Not having grade twelve takes away choices. Determination and strength of character, while important,
won't get you into college or a tech school where they require grade twelve and you have grade ten.
 

karrie

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Jan 6, 2007
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Unfortunately, forcing someone to stay in school doesn't mean they absorb a damn thing. It makes sense for people who DO absorb an education, to simply say 'get educated', but for someone who has a learning disability, or social pressures like say, a child, keeping them from finishing school, all that forcing them to stay in does is make them hate learning.
 

JLM

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 27, 2008
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My idea was, that staying in school would give them a choice. Not everyone wants to be, or is capable of being a doctor or a
lawyer, or an accountant. By the same token Not all are suited to be a plumber or a tradesman. Having grade twelve gives
young people choices........Not having grade twelve takes away choices. Determination and strength of character, while important,
won't get you into college or a tech school where they require grade twelve and you have grade ten.

You are absolutely correct.
 

Cliffy

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Nov 19, 2008
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I saw an interview with a street person once. He had been a college professor and fell on hard times (we'll skip the details.) He was left out on the street but was there long enough for him to realize (that for him) it was a great freedom. He then chose to stay out on the street. He was not a drunk or drug addict and quite lucid.

I was brought up in upper middle class suburbia. My dad was head of international sales for Norther Telecom. After 8 yeras of climbing the corporate ladder I decided that this was all a bad dream, quit my job and went to live in the forest (read squat in an abandoned cabin) because I saw the whole (Disneyesque) American Dream as a nightmare leading to humanities demise. I learned to live quite comfortably on about 1/5th of what most people would consider the poverty level. Poverty is sometimes a choice. I made that choice because I wanted to minimize my foot print on the planet and not be involved with mindless consumerism.
 

JLM

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Nov 27, 2008
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Unfortunately, forcing someone to stay in school doesn't mean they absorb a damn thing. It makes sense for people who DO absorb an education, to simply say 'get educated', but for someone who has a learning disability, or social pressures like say, a child, keeping them from finishing school, all that forcing them to stay in does is make them hate learning.

I think a lot depends on the kid, Karrie, with some you are absolutely correct, while with others #Juan is absolutely correct. I'd say there are a few who are just not mature enough during their teens to take studying seriously, so those few should be "detoured", have a chance to otherwise make productive use of their time, but keeping an option of returning to adult education later if they choose or find it required.
 

karrie

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Jan 6, 2007
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I learned to live quite comfortably on about 1/5th of what most people would consider the poverty level. Poverty is sometimes a choice. I made that choice because I wanted to minimize my foot print on the planet and not be involved with mindless consumerism.

Then is it poverty?