Pirates......

Colpy

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 5, 2005
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Four Americans killed by pirates off Somalia’s coast



.....................The killing of the four Americans appears to underscore an increasingly brutal and aggressive shift pirates have been showing toward hostages. The conventional wisdom in the shipping industry had been that Somali pirates are businessmen looking for a ransom payday, not insurgents looking to terrorize people.
Pirates — who currently hold 30 ships and more than 660 hostages — typically win a multimillion ransom for releasing their captives, a huge sum that is shared among investors and pirates. The money is often spent on alcohol, drugs and prostitutes. One ransom paid last year was reported as $9.5 million. Most ransoms are worth several million dollars.

Four Americans killed by pirates off Somalia’s coast - The Globe and Mail

This is insanity. Exactly how long are we to put up with this crap???

The solutions are simple, but varied.

1. Make it illegal to pay ransom. Institute a Law of the Sea where any ship and cargo freed by the paying of ransom can be seized the military force deployed in the Gulf in anti-pirate operations, and sold to the highest bidder to pay for those operations.

2. Arm merchant men. A half dozen Remington 12 ga shotguns, at $400 bucks apiece, and $500 per man to train the crew in their use. A bunch of buckshot. Try boarding THOSE ships.....and I happen to know a guy that would love a job training the boys. :)

3. Take military action against pirate nests ashore. Don't arrest anyone.

4. If a ship is taken, initiate immediate, overwhelming, violent military action. Take no prisoners.

The Canadian Navy is currently engaged in catch-and-release operations against pirates....we catch them, take their AKs (20 bucks each in Somalia) and let them go. Personally, I think we should set them adrift in their boat, and use it for target practice.

We used to be a LOT smarter than this, as a society.
 

china

Time Out
Jul 30, 2006
5,247
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Ottawa ,Canada
Colpy -
We used to be a LOT smarter than this, as a society.
Prior to 1968...........allot smarter '
Prior to 1968 we were a one society. At present we are a liberal's multicultural ,disorganized 'goulash'.


Most of my posts are not to put Canada down ,but to emphasize this very point- (for those who can't see ) .
 
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Unforgiven

Force majeure
May 28, 2007
6,770
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Pirates are a big problem but the solution isn't as easy as you make it out to be.
Most pirates just dump their guns over the side when the authorities show up. Then they look just like fishermen. Kill them and they all say you are killing innocent fishermen and the PR wars starts up. Arm everyone and then instead of hostages, you get dead people. Companies pay ransom because billions of dollars of ship and cargo being released three month to 9 months faster is more profitable.

Convoys are the best defense and bring those caught to face justice and long prison terms.
 

TenPenny

Hall of Fame Member
Jun 9, 2004
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Location, Location
Pirates are a big problem but the solution isn't as easy as you make it out to be.
Most pirates just dump their guns over the side when the authorities show up. Then they look just like fishermen. Kill them and they all say you are killing innocent fishermen and the PR wars starts up. Arm everyone and then instead of hostages, you get dead people. Companies pay ransom because billions of dollars of ship and cargo being released three month to 9 months faster is more profitable.

Convoys are the best defense and bring those caught to face justice and long prison terms.

No prison terms.
Either shoot them, or throw them overboard.

PR is pointless, the world knows the scoop. Many of the pirates are money-making arms of organized crime in other parts of the world.
 

Colpy

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 5, 2005
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Pirates are a big problem but the solution isn't as easy as you make it out to be.
Most pirates just dump their guns over the side when the authorities show up. Then they look just like fishermen. Kill them and they all say you are killing innocent fishermen and the PR wars starts up. Arm everyone and then instead of hostages, you get dead people. Companies pay ransom because billions of dollars of ship and cargo being released three month to 9 months faster is more profitable.

Convoys are the best defense and bring those caught to face justice and long prison terms.

The idea is to END the practice, for all intents and purposes.....convoys are simply not practical.

If that is how they behave when the authorities show up, then the authorities are helpless until after a ship is taken...........and the responsibility to defend oneself falls to the ship's company. The authorities can not defend everyone, so people/ships/companies must take responsibility for their own safety. This is where you and I part company philosophically, be in in the Gulf of Aden or in a Canadian back yard.......

You are ALREADY getting dead people.

Better to die on your feet than live on your knees.

Companies pay ransom because most CEOs have the IQ of a calculator.....and a calculator does not see the consequences of rewarding pirates....the consequences, of course, being more pirates.

Justice and prison terms require a codified system of laws and an infrastructure to support them. Neither exist at sea. To say nothing of the fact that life in a Canadian prison would be a reward to many of these guys........not much of a deterent.

Death to pirates. They will cease and desist ONLY when it becomes very obvious that the inevitable result of taking a ship is a seven inch hole blown through their six inch neck.

Otherwise the financial rewards are simply too great.
 
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Unforgiven

Force majeure
May 28, 2007
6,770
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The idea is to END the practice, for all intents and purposes.....convoys are simply not practical.

If that is how they behave when the authorities show up, then the authorities are helpless until after a ship is taken...........and the responsibility to defend oneself falls to the ship's company. The authorities can not defend everyone, so people/ships/companies must take responsibility for their own safety. This is where you and I part company philosophically, be in in the Gulf of Aden or in a Canadian back yard.......

You are ALREADY getting dead people.

Better to die on your feet than live on your knees.

Companies pay ransom because most CEOs have the IQ of a calculator.....and a calculator does not see the consequences of rewarding pirates....the consequences, of course, being more pirates.

Justice and prison terms require a codified system of laws and an infrastructure to support them. Neither exist at sea. To say nothing of the fact that life in a Canadian prison would be a reward to many of these guys........not much of a deterent.

Death to pirates. They will cease and desist ONLY when it becomes very obvious that the inevitable result of taking a ship is a seven inch hole blown through their six inch neck.

Otherwise the financial rewards are simply too great.

Yeah you don't have any experience with pirates Colpy. It's great in theory to say dieing on your feet is better than living on your knees but in practice it's a lot more murky. Pirates use military grade weapons most of the time. While it's fine to think a ship can have military grade weapons too, no one is about the let them in their waters so that just isn't going to work. You can load up all the shotguns you want but you aren't going to win in a fire fight with rocket propelled grenade launchers. Want to win this fight, put more ships with helicopters and fast moving interceptors in the area. Catch pirates and send them to Saudi Arabia for trial and put them in prison there for twenty years if they are found guilty. Eventually you run out of pirates with enough guts to attempt taking on the military.
 

Colpy

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 5, 2005
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Yeah you don't have any experience with pirates Colpy. It's great in theory to say dieing on your feet is better than living on your knees but in practice it's a lot more murky. Pirates use military grade weapons most of the time. While it's fine to think a ship can have military grade weapons too, no one is about the let them in their waters so that just isn't going to work. You can load up all the shotguns you want but you aren't going to win in a fire fight with rocket propelled grenade launchers. Want to win this fight, put more ships with helicopters and fast moving interceptors in the area. Catch pirates and send them to Saudi Arabia for trial and put them in prison there for twenty years if they are found guilty. Eventually you run out of pirates with enough guts to attempt taking on the military.

mmmmm

Was watching vids on you tube....AKs and RPGs, and they aren't very proficient with them.......

You can't sink a merchant ship with either an AK or a RPG. you have to board it.....they do so with grappling hooks........good luck with that in the face of buckshot......read here an account of pirates driven off with PISTOLS.....

Italian Cruise Ship Fires on Somali Pirates - International News | News of the World | Middle East News | Europe News - FOXNews.com

Although a lovely Gatling on the ship would be much more effective.....you know, 3600 rds of 7.62 a minute.....as for countries not letting them in....perhaps the answer is the same as used to be done on merchant ships. Put aboard a gun of sufficient capability.......and a Marine or naval officer to operate it.

If nations are not willing to take on this stuff, perhaps they would like to be cut off from sea-borne trade.
 

shadowshiv

Dark Overlord
May 29, 2007
17,545
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The way things are going currently, acts of piracy seem to be going up. They need to take the kid-gloves off and deal with the pirates in a permanent fashion. If they find a Mothership, sink it. Don't rescue any of the pirates and have the ship sitting there waiting for the Mothership to sink completely. Then wait another hour or so to make sure there aren't any stragglers clinging to anything.

It sounds cruel, but do these pirates deserve any less? The pirates of old had their ships sunk and they ended up on the end of a rope. Pirates of today shouldn't have anything else to look forward to.
 

Praxius

Mass'Debater
Dec 18, 2007
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This is insanity. Exactly how long are we to put up with this crap???

"We" don't have to put up with it at all...... stop sending ships through that area....... The only reason why countries keep sending ships through that area is because it's quick and thus, cost effective and it's not their country, so they can dump their waste and pollute their country's waters all they want...... but it's no longer being very profitable is it? Not if you have ships being taken over and held for multi-million dollar ransoms.

Instead we have companies paying ransoms to get their ships and crew back, and we have multiple countries sending military vessels and troops to patrol those waters...... which adds on top of the overall cost of those ransoms.

Countries have been having a cheap way of cutting their shipping costs by going through their waters for a long time and now that it's not becoming profitable, we have people crying foul and trying to get that back..... which was never theirs in the first place.

Just think about what would happen if we opened up the north for open-wide shipping by every country out there? Further pollution and contamination would occur in Northern Canada and it'd be our responsibility to clean it up and deal with it, while not getting any real return from these countries using our waters to save themselves some money........ I'm sure a few people would get fed up and depending on how bad it got, resort to similar tactics..... you never know.

The solutions are simple, but varied.

1. Make it illegal to pay ransom. Institute a Law of the Sea where any ship and cargo freed by the paying of ransom can be seized the military force deployed in the Gulf in anti-pirate operations, and sold to the highest bidder to pay for those operations.

That won't solve anything and you would only end up having more hostages killed..... great way to punish the victims while ignoring those you feel are causing the problem....... it won't stop anything and if these pirates don't get ransom money from holding ships and hostages, then they'll just kill everybody on those ships, take those ships, strip them down of their cargo, equipment and resources and sell them on the black market...... nothing is solved.

2. Arm merchant men. A half dozen Remington 12 ga shotguns, at $400 bucks apiece, and $500 per man to train the crew in their use. A bunch of buckshot. Try boarding THOSE ships.....and I happen to know a guy that would love a job training the boys. :)

Then the pirates will obtain larger caliber weapons with longer ranges (Sniper rifles, 50.cal machine guns), or larger explosive weapons to take those people out....... it will only increase and nothing will change except more violence and more deaths.

3. Take military action against pirate nests ashore. Don't arrest anyone.

That won't stop anything, only piss off Somolis further and increase their aggression and tactics..... that and it's not our country to invade and attack...... we're in their waters, remember that...... and remember what happens when you think you can get what you want just by blowing things up and killing people. Your victims gain more sympathy and more support, your problems don't go away and the conflict and issues only escalate.

4. If a ship is taken, initiate immediate, overwhelming, violent military action. Take no prisoners.

And further risk killing the hostages and crew of those ships taken over, either by the pirates killing them or them getting killed in the crossfire and die at the hands of those wonderful trigger happy military heros........ threat of dying from being a pirate will not deter these people because the gains outweigh the risks....... as said before, if something like that happens, then they'll just board the ships, kill everyone and take the ships back to shore, strip them down of their cargo and resources and sell them to the highest bidder.

The Canadian Navy is currently engaged in catch-and-release operations against pirates....we catch them, take their AKs (20 bucks each in Somalia) and let them go. Personally, I think we should set them adrift in their boat, and use it for target practice.

We used to be a LOT smarter than this, as a society.

Indeed, we used to be a lot smarter then this...... the smartest thing to be doing is moving our ships outside of their waters and way out of range of the pirates...... increased shipping time and feul costs don't compare to not saving hostages, wasting money on ransoms and military patrols.

^ But that's just too simple I guess..... us being smarter indeed. :roll:
 
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ironsides

Executive Branch Member
Feb 13, 2009
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You forgot the most important weapon that many yachts carry around the Caribbean, a .50 cal. Browning machine gun. The U.S. and British Navy's once pretty much put an end to piracy on the high seas. We should just reinstate the laws back then. Hang them on the spot.
 

BaalsTears

Senate Member
Jan 25, 2011
5,732
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36
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Very well done!

My only problem with this is waiting until they already have hostages, instead of preventing them taking hostages.......as they had yesterday......

Western societies cannot go to the source. The western will has been broken. They no longer have the ability to act effectively. But the western era is coming to an end. Ultimately the Chinese or Indians will act and put an end to Somali piracy.
 

Chiliagon

Prime Minister
May 16, 2010
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I think they need to have a cruiser sitting a little ways away that can take out the boat or small ship without being seen and blow the bastards to hell..

don't give them any space and make em pay!!!
 

ironsides

Executive Branch Member
Feb 13, 2009
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The Chinese and Indians will be so involved with each other that Somali piracy issue will only be taken on as events happen. Neither of them will get involved with Somalia directly, especially the Chinese.

I think they need to have a cruiser sitting a little ways away that can take out the boat or small ship without being seen and blow the bastards to hell..

don't give them any space and make em pay!!!
Just board or shoot up any boat that ventures beyond fishing areas off the coast of Somalia. Blockade them.