Tories To Waste Billons On New Fighter Jets

dumpthemonarchy

House Member
Jan 18, 2005
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www.cynicsunlimited.com
The Tories are lackeys of the military-industrial complex and buy dumb jets. Does Harper know the Cold War is over?

What we need are patrol ships and helicopters for the North. Harper talks about the North but does nothing about it.

Canada’s $9-billion jet fighter deal raises questions - The Globe and Mail

Canada’s $9-billion jet fighter deal raises questions

A Canadian Forces pilot has his picture taken in front of a F-35 Strike Fighter mock-up before a news conference in Ottawa on July 16, 2010. THE CANADIAN PRESS

Critics ask whether such sophisticated and pricey planes are crucial to military needs



Campbell Clark and Steven Chase

Ottawa — From Saturday's Globe and Mail Published on Saturday, Jul. 17, 2010 12:00AM EDT Last updated on Saturday, Jul. 17, 2010 10:28AM EDT

The Harper government has committed to buying a fleet of $140-million-a-pop fighter jets at the outset of an era of austerity, sparking questions about whether post-Cold-War Canada still needs pricey cutting-edge airpower.

Marched in to a military band, Defence Minister Peter MacKay touted the new fleet of next-generation F-35s, fitted with stealth technology, state-of-the-art operating systems and super-secure communications, as the “best” that Canadian pilots need to defend the country’s sovereignty and fight in missions abroad.

But the price tag for 65 planes – $9-billion to buy them, and an estimated $16-billion when a maintenance contract is completed – has heightened questions about whether they are really crucial to Canada’s future military needs.

With no Soviet Union across the North Pole, critics say the Conservative government has yet to demonstrate a strategic need for fighters.
“There is a whole lot of bells and whistles on the F-35 that they don’t really need,” said Michael Wallace, a University of British Columbia defence and international relations professor. “It’s basically a Cold War upgrade, and the Cold War is over, so there’s nobody it’s really useful against.”

The F-35 Lightning II jets, developed by a cartel of nine nations led by the United States and including Canada, are the first “fifth-generation” fighter planes that U.S. allies can buy.

The announcement of one of the biggest military equipment purchases in recent Canadian history is symbolically at odds with the Conservatives’ planned five-year round of budget cutting to start next year.
Government ministers emphasized the potential economic benefits of the contract: By buying into a massive allied fighter program worth more than $400-billion, Ottawa enables Canadian companies to bid on subcontracts from manufacturer Lockheed Martin.

Controversially, the Harper government did not ask for other bids, saying Canada needs the same high-tech fighter that the United States and its allies will fly.
“There are a large number of our allies who are moving in the direction of purchasing this same aircraft,” Mr. MacKay said. “There is a need to be current, combat-capable and inter-operable.”

He outlined the general purpose for the fighters: to “defend the sovereignty” of Canadian airspace, remain a reliable North American defence partner for the United States and take part in international military operations. But he didn’t say what kind of threat Canada might be up against.

One Conservative said privately that the jets are in part a statement about protecting Canada’s Arctic sovereignty. And the United States might question Canada’s role in the NORAD alliance if it did not have modern fighters – the U.S. military is buying more than 2,000 F-35s.

There are other questions: Some military analysts wonder whether Canada will ever need fighter airpower in a conflict against an opposing air force. Fighters are less effective against the kind of insurgency Canadian troops are battling in Afghanistan, which some analysts believe will be the pattern of future conflicts.

Some argue that the F-35 is too much plane for Canada’s real needs. Michael Wallace, a University of British Columbia defence and international relations professor, said the life of the existing CF-18s, expected to wear out between 2017 and 2020, could be extended by replacing their airframes.

But other analysts insist that’s short-sighted: Canada needs a fast-flying interception plane to secure its airspace, and the F-35 is really the only option other than old technology. The only other real alternative – although too bold for Canada – would be to wait a few years for unmanned drone fighters to be feasible, he said.

Carleton University political scientist Elinor Sloan, a former Defence Department analyst, said fighters still play a fundamental role: preserving Canadian sovereignty by protecting its airspace from foreign incursions over the Arctic, or shooting down a hijacked plane.

In 2007, flush with money from high oil prices, Russia resumed regular air exercises in the name of protecting its own Arctic sovereignty.

“There's that North American air defence mission that continues on. It's arguably more important since 9/11,” Prof. Sloan said. “Also, there's an increased Russian bomber activity ... so that mission is coming back.”
 

Cliffy

Standing Member
Nov 19, 2008
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If Russia or China decided to invade Canada, our military, navy and air farce would be wiped out in one day, more likely an hour even with the addition of these 65 planes. That is a huge waste of money. What is the point of having them just to have them destroyed and a bunch of our people killed. Any way, the US would not stand for invasion on their border. That leaves only the US who could invade us, and there ain't nothin' we could do about that either. As far as I'm concerned, our military should be used only for disaster relief. We need peace, not war. Besides, I don't know of any standing army that was able to defeat a guerrilla army. Don't have to look much farther than Iraq, Afghanistan, Vietnam or the US of A (their guerrilla army defeated the British). Time to spend that money by investing in Canada and Canadians - education, health care, job creation.
 

ironsides

Executive Branch Member
Feb 13, 2009
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You complain when your military has to go off to war with inferior equipment, and yet complain more about giving them some first rate aircraft to protect their lives.. This Cold War is not over, just taking a break.
 

EagleSmack

Hall of Fame Member
Feb 16, 2005
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. Besides, I don't know of any standing army that was able to defeat a guerrilla army. Don't have to look much farther than Iraq, Afghanistan, Vietnam or the US of A (their guerrilla army defeated the British)..

The Contential Army during the American Revolution was a guerilla army now? That's new.

Are you still holding to the notion that the Iraqi Insurgency defeated the Americans? Have you been keeping up with current events?
 

china

Time Out
Jul 30, 2006
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ironsides
You complain when your military has to go off to war with inferior equipment, and yet complain more about giving them some first rate aircraft to protect their lives.. This Cold War is not over, just taking a break.
Oh how true it is what you're saying ironsides ; but of little meaning to those who should understand it the most.:canada:

 

Walter

Hall of Fame Member
Jan 28, 2007
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The F-35 is a good plane to replace the Turdoh era F-18's. Once that's done let's get some decent tanks and tansport trucks.
 

relic

Council Member
Nov 29, 2009
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I said this before and nobody's changed my mind,that's a lot of money for entertainment at an air show,my vote goes for patrol boats and 'copters.
 

El Barto

les fesses a l'aire
Feb 11, 2007
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I am not totally against renewing our fleet of fighters. What I am against from what I heard is the way this was done. All behind closed doors basically. We didn't hear the news this was going to happen. There was no bid , no discussion . I do not like this style of dealings.

hmmm this is interesting , googled the f 35 looking for specs and i saw this .....

Canada's rationale for joining the JSF project was not due to an urgent need to replace Canada's fleet of CF-18 Hornets; instead, it was driven primarily by economics.[166] Through Canadian government investment in the JSF project, Canadian companies were allowed to compete for contracts within the JSF project, as there were fears that being shut out from industrial participation in such a large program would severely damage the Canadian aviation industry.[166] Joining also furthered Canadian access to information regarding the F-35 as a possible contender when it eventually plans to replace the CF-18 Hornet fleet. Improved interoperability with major allies allowed the DND to gain insight on leading edge practices in composites, manufacturing and logistics, and offered the ability to recoup some investment if the government did decide to purchase the F-35.[166]
As a result of the Canadian government investment in the JSF project, 144 contracts were awarded to Canadian companies, universities, and government facilities. Financially, the contracts are valued at US$490 million for the period 2002 to 2012, with an expected value of US$1.1 billion from current contracts in the period between 2013 and 2023, and a total potential estimated value of Canadian JSF involvement from US$4.8 billion to US$6.8 billion.[166]
 

CDNBear

Custom Troll
Sep 24, 2006
43,839
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I am not totally against renewing our fleet of fighters. What I am against from what I heard is the way this was done. All behind closed doors basically. We didn't hear the news this was going to happen. There was no bid , no discussion . I do not like this style of dealings.

hmmm this is interesting , googled the f 35 looking for specs and i saw this .....

Canada's rationale for joining the JSF project was not due to an urgent need to replace Canada's fleet of CF-18 Hornets; instead, it was driven primarily by economics.[166] Through Canadian government investment in the JSF project, Canadian companies were allowed to compete for contracts within the JSF project, as there were fears that being shut out from industrial participation in such a large program would severely damage the Canadian aviation industry.[166] Joining also furthered Canadian access to information regarding the F-35 as a possible contender when it eventually plans to replace the CF-18 Hornet fleet. Improved interoperability with major allies allowed the DND to gain insight on leading edge practices in composites, manufacturing and logistics, and offered the ability to recoup some investment if the government did decide to purchase the F-35.[166]
As a result of the Canadian government investment in the JSF project, 144 contracts were awarded to Canadian companies, universities, and government facilities. Financially, the contracts are valued at US$490 million for the period 2002 to 2012, with an expected value of US$1.1 billion from current contracts in the period between 2013 and 2023, and a total potential estimated value of Canadian JSF involvement from US$4.8 billion to US$6.8 billion.[166]
Seems that besides replacing an antiquated aircraft, the gov't has helped feed the Canadian aeronautics industry...

I'm still not seeing the down side to this.
 

El Barto

les fesses a l'aire
Feb 11, 2007
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Specs for the f35


Performance
Specs for the cf 18


Performance
Seems that besides replacing an antiquated aircraft, the gov't has helped feed the Canadian aeronautics industry...

I'm still not seeing the down side to this.
From a tax payers point of view. There is there is recession and deficit spending . From ethical point of view we were so un-aware to what the government was going to decide as we were the last to know.

Do we really need this stealth technology? To me that is for a first strike role. What we need is range and long flight sorties.
We could of been looking at something cheaper too.

other than that. Not much against it.
Just the way it was done
 

CDNBear

Custom Troll
Sep 24, 2006
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Specs for the f35

Performance
Specs for the cf 18

Performance
Yep, I've read reviews, the only complaints were in cost over runs and delays. Other then that, it seems to be an aircraft that has drawn on past achievements and breakthroughs while avoiding past mistakes.
From a tax payers point of view. There is there is recession and deficit spending . From ethical point of view we were so un-aware to what the government was going to decide as we were the last to know.
Wasn't the first time, won't be the last. I'll bet this is but one of hundreds if not thousands of deals made that we the people had no idea what was going on. That's just a fact of life with a gov't of the size we have.
Do we really need this stealth technology?
Yep.
To me that is for a first strike role.
To me it means stealth, in support, defencive rolls, or reccy.
What we need is range and long flight sorties.
Yep, and the F 35, is capable of doing that.
We could of been looking at something cheaper too.
Ya, we went down that road in the past. Pilots died. Service Personnel became disenfranchised.
other than that. Not much against it.
That's because you base your opinion on the facts and your perception analyzes them, not your political leanings.
 
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El Barto

les fesses a l'aire
Feb 11, 2007
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No I don't lean much on a political side ......I swear at them all evenly ;)
 
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EagleSmack

Hall of Fame Member
Feb 16, 2005
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Do we really need this stealth technology? To me that is for a first strike role.


Stealth can't be used in defense? You can always turn that feature off and let them know you are in the area if you want I suppose.

What we need is range and long flight sorties.
We could of been looking at something cheaper too.

Well you'll get what you pay for.
 

ironsides

Executive Branch Member
Feb 13, 2009
8,583
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Specs for the f35



Performance
Specs for the cf 18



Performance
From a tax payers point of view. There is there is recession and deficit spending . From ethical point of view we were so un-aware to what the government was going to decide as we were the last to know.

Do we really need this stealth technology? To me that is for a first strike role. What we need is range and long flight sorties.
We could of been looking at something cheaper too.

other than that. Not much against it.
Just the way it was done

Would be nice if your being attacked not to be seen. Have a upper edge your opponent may not be aware of.
 

petros

The Central Scrutinizer
Nov 21, 2008
109,276
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Let me say this again. YOUR CPP, many UNION PENSIONS AND EI are invested in Lockheed Martin and Raytheon, Bombardier, GE and on and on and on.

Some of this jet was designed by Canadians some by Americans. It was an international project from the start. Once we get our order filled we can go and sell these puppies world wide and sell the training and maintenance as well. In th end we'll make money and have money for when you retire (if you can).
 

CDNBear

Custom Troll
Sep 24, 2006
43,839
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Let me say this again. YOUR CPP, PENSION AND EI are invested in Lockheed Martin and Raytheon, Bombardier, GE and on and on and on.

Some of this jet was designed by Canadians some by Americans. It was an international project from the start. Once we get our order filled we can go and sell these puppies world wide and sell the training and maintenance as well. In th end we'll make money and have money for when you retire (if you can).
But Petros, the Harpo-cons did it, so it must be bad!!! No matter what it means to Canada's defences, or our aeronautics industry.