French burka ban proposal riles Muslims

Praxius

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CBC News - World - French burka ban proposal riles Muslims

Muslims in the Arab world are incensed and Muslims in France are walking a delicate line after President Nicolas Sarkozy pushed for an all-out ban on full Islamic veils like the burka.

"Ridiculous" and "misplaced," said a Muslim vendor Thursday at an outdoor market in a working class, ethnically mixed Paris suburb. "Racist," said a Sunni Muslim cleric in Lebanon.

The rector of the Muslim Institute of the Paris Mosque, however, held off on harsh criticism, saying only that any ban should be properly explained, and noting that the Qur'an does not require women to cover their bodies and faces.

Sarkozy upped the stakes Wednesday in France's drive to abolish the full veil, ordering a draft law banning them in all public places — defying France's highest administrative body, which says such a ban risks being declared unconstitutional.

Such a measure would put France on the same track as Belgium, which is also moving toward a complete ban amid fears of radicalism and growing Islamic populations in Europe. Sarkozy says such clothing oppresses women and is "not welcome" in France. French officials have also cited a concealed face as a security risk.

France's top government official for family issues, Nadine Morano, said the conservative government wants to "break this dynamic of invasion of burkas in our country."

While France has western Europe's largest Muslim population, only a tiny minority of Muslim women in France wear the burka, which has only a mesh screen for the eyes, or the niqab, which leaves a slit for the eyes.

"France is addressing a very strong message. It is a message on an international level to women. How can we explain that while women are fighting in Afghanistan for their freedom, for their dignity, in France we accept what they are fighting against?" Morano said on France-Info radio Thursday.

Abdel Halim Laeib, a market vendor in Livry-Gargan northeast of Paris, is worried that outlawing the veils would inflame tensions in a nation struggling to define its modern identity.

"I find it totally ridiculous," he said. "Every person has the right to practise their religion, in whatever way they want to. Personally, it doesn't bother me if someone wears the full veil, like a woman who can wear a miniskirt, or a low-cut top where we can see her breasts."

Middle East reaction

In Lebanon, Sheik Maher Hammoud, a Sunni Muslim cleric in the southern city of Sidon, called the French actions racist.

"Whenever Islamic thought and culture clashes with Western democracy, racism rears its head and under various names," he said. "Muslims do not need lessons from Sarkozy or anyone else to teach them about human rights or the rights of women."

In Damascus, Mohammed Habash, Syrian lawmaker and head of the Centre for Islamic Studies, said "such decisions only serve to encourage Islamophobia." Given the small numbers of women in France who wear the niqab, he said, "I don't think this constitutes a security or cultural threat."

"This does not bode well for the relationship between Islamic countries and Western governments," he said.

France drew similar criticism when it outlawed Muslim headscarves and other "ostentatious" religious symbols from classrooms in 2004.

They argue that it's all about protecting women from being oppressed and being told what to wear.... yet what they're doing is oppressing & dictating what women can and can't wear, how much of their skin is exposed, etc.

Kind of ironic when I don't remember them ever actually asking the women in question what they thought or even if they're wearing them by their own free will as an adult..... or if they even have men in their lives whom could tell them what to wear or not.

In extremist places that follow Islam, sure I bet some men are forcing women to wear them.... but most moderates I've seen interviewed who wear them in western civilizations said they wear them by their own choice and free will and like the fact that they don't have to deck themselves out in makeup and such when they want to head out somewhere, in order to impress strangers on the street when it's none of their concern how they look. They don't have to worry about men heckling them or checking them out on the streets, which we all know us men do from time to time.

So when can we expect the same dress codes being applied to other religious groups like the Amish, Jehovah's Witnesses, Nuns, Priests, Rabbis, etc.?

Of course it never once surprised me that something like this half-brained idea would come from Sarkozy.... he's a womanizing pig anyways, married a super model, constantly caught in photo opts checking women out.... if he had his way, he'd have France setup like the Feringi Homeworld where all women must be naked at all times and banned from wearing clothes.

Sarkozy is protecting women from oppression? Sounds like he's protecting his right to have women to check out and oogle.

And the whole argument on security and people hiding bombs under burqas is so baseless and stupid, it's not even funny.
 

Praxius

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What's being banned is not the Burka it's the Niqab.

As per SOP the CBC is a POFS excuse for a news service.

Well we all know CBC has a Liberal Spin and CTV has the Conservative spin on information... heck just looking at their corporate logo standards/colours they use would tip anybody off.

Which is why I stick to Global for most of my local news since they usually just stick to the needed information and leave out all the rest of the piddily crap.... but at lunch I just see something interesting on any of the sites and post it.

I'm technically not loyal to any particular news source except those that try and stay out of the bias of things.

Regardless, there's been many other news sources stating the reaction and the next step taken in this debate.... and in my personal opinion, it's over the top if it's just going to target one group of people for what they wear (of all things)
 

wulfie68

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Well, if the people of France object to this, they can send a message by electing someone who will repeal this law in their next election. Other than that. its their business so who really cares: its France...
 

El Barto

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Feb 11, 2007
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Well, if the people of France object to this, they can send a message by electing someone who will repeal this law in their next election. Other than that. its their business so who really cares: its France...
I beg to differ here. What is happening over there and in England we will have to face here . If we are not careful which is getting late , we will have to put our foot down and make laws like that .
 

dumpthemonarchy

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Life in France much more politically intense than in Canada. There history lives and very foreign cultures are close by. France does not have blase attitude toward religion like we do here. They have assertively stated they are a secular state and will downplay relgion when it feels it challenges their national secular identity.

France had a bloody and violent revolution two centuries ago, more conflict in the 19th century, so they know what they like.

France doesn't pander to religious groups like politicians here have for Sikhs so they can wear their turbans as policemen. They have much sharper limits due to a far more volatile history with other nations and religions. The niqab is a symbol of religious conservatism that requires some limits.
 

Praxius

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Dec 18, 2007
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Related News Report:

Muslim woman fined for driving veiled in France
Muslim woman fined for driving veiled in France | News.com.au

A FRENCH Muslim woman has been fined for driving while wearing a full-face veil, as the government pushes to ban the garment.

The woman's lawyer has accused police of abusing her human rights, after officers stopped the 31-one-year-old in the western city of Nantes and fined her 22 euros ($31.50) on the grounds that her niqab - an Islamic veil with a slit for the eyes - restricted her view so she could not drive safely.

"This fine is not justified on road safety grounds and constitutes a breach of human and women's rights," lawyer Jean-Michel Pollono told Agence France-Presse.

He insisted his client, who was not named, could "move freely" and "her field of vision was in no way obstructed".

He added that "the field of vision of a motorcycle rider wearing a helmet is more restricted".

President Nicolas Sarkozy's government said on Wednesday it would push ahead with a ban on wearing a full-face veil in public, despite a warning from state judicial experts that such a law could be unconstitutional.

There is strong support in parliament for such a ban and the government is determined to press on with a law, which it says would affect only about 2000 Muslim French women who currently cover their faces.

Mr Pollono said he had complained formally to the state prosecutor.

"The ball is clearly in the authorities' court," he said.

"Currently no law forbids the wearing of the niqab."

The local authorities said the officer involved legally had discretion to decide whether there was a danger.

He "was doing his job. He judged that in the circumstances there was a risk to security," a police source said.
 

TenPenny

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The rector of the Muslim Institute of the Paris Mosque, however, held off on harsh criticism, saying only that any ban should be properly explained, and noting that the Qur'an does not require women to cover their bodies and faces.

I think that's an important point.

I also believe that the law in France is about covering up the face, not specifically about Niqabs or Burkas. (sp?)
 

Nuggler

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Feb 27, 2006
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Canada should learn from this.

Our politicos pander to minorities to glean votes, and it's starting to bite them (us) on the ass.

Good on France!!
 

SirJosephPorter

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Well, if the people of France object to this, they can send a message by electing someone who will repeal this law in their next election. Other than that. its their business so who really cares: its France...


Quite so, Wulfie. In spite of protestations to the contrary, burka, veil, niqab or whatever, has nothing to do with Islam, it is not a religious issue.

Nowhere in Koran does it say that a woman must be completely covered in a veil. All it says is that women must be dressed modestly (incidentally, Bible says pretty much the same thing).

So burka or niqab are purely cultural constructs, not religious icons. If French people want to ban them, that is their business, they are not infringing upon anybody’s religious rights.

And as you correctly point out, if French people don’t like it, they can always elect politicians who will repeal the ban.

Incidentally, if burka is banned in Canada, I don’t expect courts here to strike down the law as unconstitutional (mainly because it is not a religious issue, but a cultural one).
 

Downhome_Woman

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What's being banned is not the Burka it's the Niqab.

As per SOP the CBC is a POFS excuse for a news service.

By definition, if you ban the niquab you are banning the burqa. the niquab is the actual veil that covers the face. The burqa is a toal 'body veil - it covers the body AND the face. The hijab is simply a scarf that covers the hair. The cloak , worn without the niqab is called an abaya.
 

AnnaG

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In a way, Petros is right. It is the Muslim interpretation of the Quran that makes them think women must be covered. But, although it should be a choice rather than mandatory, Muslim men have decided it is mandatory and in the Islamic world, women are second class so they cannot use their choice. For very few it is fashion.
 

petros

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In a way, Petros is right. It is the Muslim interpretation of the Quran that makes them think women must be covered. But, although it should be a choice rather than mandatory, Muslim men have decided it is mandatory and in the Islamic world, women are second class so they cannot use their choice. For very few it is fashion.
Mandatory isn't as common as most think and it's only mandatory in public. In Saudi Arabi LaSenza is the most popular store for women. If you knew what they wore under the outdoor gear your jaws would drop.
 

earth_as_one

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This is about the state taking away a person's right to choose.

This can only be justified in exceptional cases. For example, when the choice affects personal or public safety.

I can't see how a woman choosing to cover herself up in public affects anyone else in most situations. Exceptions might be wearing burka while riding a motorcycle or operate dangerous machinery. If she goes swimming in a burka, she would be risking her life and that of the lifeguard.

The solution here might be for women to make a slight alternation to the garment and call it something else, which would then be legal until they changed the law. People can make slight alterations and name changes faster than politicians can pass laws...

The state should protect a person's right to choose. A better law would be to make it illegal for one person to force someone else to wear a burka.
 

AnnaG

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Mandatory isn't as common as most think and it's only mandatory in public.
It isn't mandatory according to the Quran; only according to some of the men who misinterpret the Quran.
In Saudi Arabi LaSenza is the most popular store for women. If you knew what they wore under the outdoor gear your jaws would drop.
Wrong, I wouldn't be surprised. I had a Lebanese gf for a while. We're still friends.
 

earth_as_one

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It isn't mandatory according to the Quran; only according to some of the men who misinterpret the Quran.Wrong, I wouldn't be surprised. I had a Lebanese gf for a while. We're still friends.

You are assuming that all women who wear burkas are being forced by men. That's not true in most cases. Most woman who choose to wear burkas in public would feel uncomfortable without one. From their viewpoint, they feel exposed if they don't wear a burka.

How would you feel Canada passed a law which forced woman to walk around in their underwear or naked? My understanding is that is how this law affects some of these women who choose to wear burkas.

I think its a mistake to allow the state to determine what clothes we are allowed to wear, what is fashionable and what is illegal.
 

AnnaG

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You are assuming that all women who wear burkas are being forced by men. That's not true in most cases. Most woman who choose to wear burkas in public would feel uncomfortable without one. From their viewpoint, they feel exposed if they don't wear a burka.
I am not assuming anything. Petros is the one who did the assuming that it is fact that women don't have to wear the niqab. How do you suppose it came about that the women feel they need to wear the thing in the first place? If you're made to wear a belt for hundreds of years, you'd feel pretty odd without one.

How would you feel Canada passed a law which forced woman to walk around in their underwear or naked? My understanding is that is how this law affects some of these women who choose to wear burkas.
Good for you. That still does not refute that women are forced to wear the niqab. Obviously some women aren't. What do you and Petros think will happen if the Taliban is allowed to take over Afghanistan. Will there be a choice for women?


I think its a mistake to allow the state to determine what clothes we are allowed to wear, what is fashionable and what is illegal.
........ or some stupid interpretation of a religious book.