#1Apr 17th, 2010
Provided he/she has one (figuratively, of course):
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Day of prayer is unconstitutional
Provided he/she has one (figuratively, of course):
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#3
Re: Day of prayer is unconstitutional
Apr 17th, 2010
Most religious holidays involve spending money on gifts or candies. Is that the case with the Day of Prayer? I mean if the capitalists can't make money on it why have it?
#4
Re: Day of prayer is unconstitutional
Apr 17th, 2010
Cliffy in typical fashion opined:
"Most religious holidays involve spending money on gifts or candies. Is that the case with the Day of Prayer? I mean if the capitalists can't make money on it why have it?"
No, this prayer day - not a national holiday - only encourages people to pray to their respective God, be it Christian, Muslim, Buddhist, Atheist (yes, it IS a religion) or whatever for their fellow man, their country, their world.
Anyone who would minimize or denigrate the intention of Prayer Day, or callously declare it to be nothing more than an other money grab, needs his/her minds examined.
"Most religious holidays involve spending money on gifts or candies. Is that the case with the Day of Prayer? I mean if the capitalists can't make money on it why have it?"
No, this prayer day - not a national holiday - only encourages people to pray to their respective God, be it Christian, Muslim, Buddhist, Atheist (yes, it IS a religion) or whatever for their fellow man, their country, their world.
Anyone who would minimize or denigrate the intention of Prayer Day, or callously declare it to be nothing more than an other money grab, needs his/her minds examined.
#5
Re: Day of prayer is unconstitutional
Apr 17th, 2010Quote: Originally Posted by gerryh
The First Amendment reads..... "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion".........Judge is right.
Those are the ONLY restrictions in the US Constitution over the role of religion in the nation.....it is, of course, a precaution against the government installing a national religion with special priviledges as England did with the Anglican Church....where the Head of State is also the leader of the State Church......
All the other crap Judges have piled on top of that simple requirement for separation of church and state is extra-constitutional judge-made law, and is incorrect in the unadultered light of the Bill of Rights.......
#6
Re: Day of prayer is unconstitutional
Apr 17th, 2010Quote: Originally Posted by YukonJack
I'm not an atheist (for the hundredth time). I never said it was a money grab and I examine the contents of my mind on a daily basis, something a bitter old man like you would be wont to do as your posts are as predictable as SJP or Denis the Red Menace.Cliffy in typical fashion opined:
"Most religious holidays involve spending money on gifts or candies. Is that the case with the Day of Prayer? I mean if the capitalists can't make money on it why have it?"
No, this prayer day - not a national holiday - only encourages people to pray to their respective God, be it Christian, Muslim, Buddhist, Atheist (yes, it IS a religion) or whatever for their fellow man, their country, their world.
Anyone who would minimize or denigrate the intention of Prayer Day, or callously declare it to be nothing more than an other money grab, needs his/her minds examined.
#7
Re: Day of prayer is unconstitutional
Apr 17th, 2010
Simply corrected by changing the wording....
National Day of Refection.
National Day of Refection.
#8
Re: Day of prayer is unconstitutional
Apr 17th, 2010
This does not apply to Canada though. According to the British North America Act, Section 93:
In and for each Province the Legislature may exclusively make Laws in relation to Education, subject and according to the following Provisions:—
(1) Nothing in any such Law shall prejudicially affect any Right or Privilege with respect to Denominational Schools which any Class of Persons have by Law in the Province at the Union:
(2) All the Powers, Privileges, and Duties at the Union by Law conferred and imposed in Upper Canada on the Separate Schools and School Trustees of the Queen's Roman Catholic Subjects shall be and the same are hereby extended to the Dissentient Schools of the Queen's Protestant and Roman Catholic Subjects in Quebec:
(3) Where in any Province a System of Separate or Dissentient Schools exists by Law at the Union or is thereafter established by the Legislature of the Province, an Appeal shall lie to the Governor General in Council from any Act or Decision of any Provincial Authority affecting any Right or Privilege of the Protestant or Roman Catholic Minority of the Queen's Subjects in relation to Education:
(4) In case any such Provincial Law as from Time to Time seems to the Governor General in Council requisite for the due Execution of the Provisions of this Section is not made, or in case any Decision of the Governor General in Council on any Appeal under this Section is not duly executed by the proper Provincial Authority in that Behalf, then and in every such Case, and as far only as the Circumstances of each Case require, the Parliament of Canada may make remedial Laws for the due Execution of the Provisions of this Section and of any Decision of the Governor General in Council under this Section.
we are free to agree or disagree with this, but this is the Canadian Constitution.
In and for each Province the Legislature may exclusively make Laws in relation to Education, subject and according to the following Provisions:—
(1) Nothing in any such Law shall prejudicially affect any Right or Privilege with respect to Denominational Schools which any Class of Persons have by Law in the Province at the Union:
(2) All the Powers, Privileges, and Duties at the Union by Law conferred and imposed in Upper Canada on the Separate Schools and School Trustees of the Queen's Roman Catholic Subjects shall be and the same are hereby extended to the Dissentient Schools of the Queen's Protestant and Roman Catholic Subjects in Quebec:
(3) Where in any Province a System of Separate or Dissentient Schools exists by Law at the Union or is thereafter established by the Legislature of the Province, an Appeal shall lie to the Governor General in Council from any Act or Decision of any Provincial Authority affecting any Right or Privilege of the Protestant or Roman Catholic Minority of the Queen's Subjects in relation to Education:
(4) In case any such Provincial Law as from Time to Time seems to the Governor General in Council requisite for the due Execution of the Provisions of this Section is not made, or in case any Decision of the Governor General in Council on any Appeal under this Section is not duly executed by the proper Provincial Authority in that Behalf, then and in every such Case, and as far only as the Circumstances of each Case require, the Parliament of Canada may make remedial Laws for the due Execution of the Provisions of this Section and of any Decision of the Governor General in Council under this Section.
we are free to agree or disagree with this, but this is the Canadian Constitution.
#9
Re: Day of prayer is unconstitutional
Apr 17th, 2010Quote: Originally Posted by Colpy
On that note, I actually see an advantage to the establishment of an official religion. I do not profess the Christian Faith myself, but I've read that if British schools teach religious studies, the Christian Faith must be included along with at least one other Faith of the school's choosing. It does provide an advantage in ensuring that though one is free to adopt the religion of his choosing (the UK has just as much religious freedom as the US), that there is at least one common Faith all are familiar with, providing a foundation for dialog between various religious communities. It also helps to alleviate fears among the population in reassuring them of the position of the majority religion in their society, thus providing stability.The First Amendment reads..... "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion".........
Those are the ONLY restrictions in the US Constitution over the role of religion in the nation.....it is, of course, a precaution against the government installing a national religion with special priviledges as England did with the Anglican Church....where the Head of State is also the leader of the State Church......
All the other crap Judges have piled on top of that simple requirement for separation of church and state is extra-constitutional judge-made law, and is incorrect in the unadultered light of the Bill of Rights.......
This of course could apply to any Faith. If for example, Iran had adopted Islam a its state religion along the same lines as the UK has done with the Christian Faith, it would have provided the same benefits. Unfortunately, Iran has gone way too far. I think Britain has found a nice balance between freedom of religion and a state religion ensuring cultural stability.
I don't agree with the Canadian position though of denying that Canada is a religious state and then turning around and granting a particular religious community a distinct and unfair advantage through separate schools and official religious statutory holidays. In the UK, there is no denying or pretending that there is no official state religion, yet the official state religion does not allow for separate public schools as such, but rather simply that if religious studies are taught that the Christian Faith must be included.
It may appear unfair on the surface, but it does provide cultural stability. By having an official state religion, for example, Britain has managed to avoid the culture wars raging in the US, where there is no clearly defined religious culture in the state, thus raising fears among the majority population.
Again, this is not about promoting this or that religion. If Iran adopted a similar policy ot Britain's but for Islam, I'd support that too, as long as I'm free to practice my own Faith and am not forced to adopt the Christian, Muslim or other Faith, but merely that I must learn it and be familiar with it as a part of a well rounded cultural education so as to be familiar with the dominant religious influences in the country.
#10
Re: Day of prayer is unconstitutional
Apr 17th, 2010Quote: Originally Posted by YukonJack
Why do you feel the need to warn the molluscs in an "athreist" heart?Here is something that should warn the cockles of the heart of every athreist.
Provided he/she has one (figuratively, of course):
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#11
Re: Day of prayer is unconstitutional
Apr 17th, 2010Quote: Originally Posted by Tonington
Why do you feel the need to warn the molluscs in an "athreist" heart?
YouTube - Molly Malone Cockles amp Mussels with lyrics
#12
Re: Day of prayer is unconstitutional
Apr 17th, 2010
Jeeeez
I can't see what the harm is letting people pray if they want. And that means anyone, not just Christians and Muslims. As long as the praying is within reason; IE no 3 hour long prayers in order to skip class n stuff.
But, I think the judge is right.
#13
Re: Day of prayer is unconstitutional
Apr 17th, 2010
And in contrast to the US Constitution, Canada's begins:
"CONSTITUTION ACT, 1982
PART I
CANADIAN CHARTER OF RIGHTS AND FREEDOMS
Whereas Canada is founded upon principles that recognize the supremacy of God and the rule of law..."
It really would be must less hypocritical for Canada to just adopt the British model of a State religion rather than pretend to be non-religious.
"CONSTITUTION ACT, 1982
PART I
CANADIAN CHARTER OF RIGHTS AND FREEDOMS
Whereas Canada is founded upon principles that recognize the supremacy of God and the rule of law..."
It really would be must less hypocritical for Canada to just adopt the British model of a State religion rather than pretend to be non-religious.
#14
Re: Day of prayer is unconstitutional
Apr 17th, 2010Quote: Originally Posted by Machjo
I believe the Constitution Act, 1982, over rides the BNA act, but I'm not sure what changes were made on this topic.This does not apply to Canada though. According to the British North America Act, Section 93:
In and for each Province the Legislature may exclusively make Laws in relation to Education, subject and according to the following Provisions:—
(1) Nothing in any such Law shall prejudicially affect any Right or Privilege with respect to Denominational Schools which any Class of Persons have by Law in the Province at the Union:
(2) All the Powers, Privileges, and Duties at the Union by Law conferred and imposed in Upper Canada on the Separate Schools and School Trustees of the Queen's Roman Catholic Subjects shall be and the same are hereby extended to the Dissentient Schools of the Queen's Protestant and Roman Catholic Subjects in Quebec:
(3) Where in any Province a System of Separate or Dissentient Schools exists by Law at the Union or is thereafter established by the Legislature of the Province, an Appeal shall lie to the Governor General in Council from any Act or Decision of any Provincial Authority affecting any Right or Privilege of the Protestant or Roman Catholic Minority of the Queen's Subjects in relation to Education:
(4) In case any such Provincial Law as from Time to Time seems to the Governor General in Council requisite for the due Execution of the Provisions of this Section is not made, or in case any Decision of the Governor General in Council on any Appeal under this Section is not duly executed by the proper Provincial Authority in that Behalf, then and in every such Case, and as far only as the Circumstances of each Case require, the Parliament of Canada may make remedial Laws for the due Execution of the Provisions of this Section and of any Decision of the Governor General in Council under this Section.
we are free to agree or disagree with this, but this is the Canadian Constitution.
#15
Re: Day of prayer is unconstitutional
Apr 17th, 2010Quote: Originally Posted by Risus
That section is still applicable today. The following is an interesting article on the subject, showing that it can be amended if the willpower is there:I believe the Constitution Act, 1982, over rides the BNA act, but I'm not sure what changes were made on this topic.
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#16
Re: Day of prayer is unconstitutional
Apr 17th, 2010
In short, we simply cannot compare the US Constitution to the Canadian one. The Canadian one is strongly religious in nature.
#17
Re: Day of prayer is unconstitutional
Apr 17th, 2010Quote: Originally Posted by Machjo
Non-hypocritical politics? *giggle snort*And in contrast to the US Constitution, Canada's begins:
"CONSTITUTION ACT, 1982
PART I
CANADIAN CHARTER OF RIGHTS AND FREEDOMS
Whereas Canada is founded upon principles that recognize the supremacy of God and the rule of law..."
It really would be must less hypocritical for Canada to just adopt the British model of a State religion rather than pretend to be non-religious.
#18
Re: Day of prayer is unconstitutional
Apr 17th, 2010Quote: Originally Posted by Machjo
I think so, too.In short, we simply cannot compare the US Constitution to the Canadian one. The Canadian one is strongly religious in nature.
#19
Re: Day of prayer is unconstitutional
Apr 17th, 2010
The separation of Church and State in the United States was envisioned to prevent an organized Church from becoming an institutionalized branch of government. It was never meant to outlaw the State from promoting prayer, in favour of an insipid atheism, which is a spiritual belief system of its own, with an implicit political agenda.
That is a relatively new invention, concordant with the post structural ethos that has brought us such atrocities as abortion and euthenasia of the sick. It is promoted by blubbering fools like this judge.. and Christopher Hitchens.
That is a relatively new invention, concordant with the post structural ethos that has brought us such atrocities as abortion and euthenasia of the sick. It is promoted by blubbering fools like this judge.. and Christopher Hitchens.
#20
Re: Day of prayer is unconstitutional
Apr 17th, 2010
So prayer in public places has nothing to do with church nor state? roflmao
#21
Re: Day of prayer is unconstitutional
Apr 17th, 2010
That's right, prayer in fact bypasses Church and State and is direct communion with God. No one can be forced to pray, but no one can be prevented from doing so either.
Prohibiting the government from sponsoring a day of prayer, as we've seen them sponsor 'Pride Day' events and other abominations, is absurd. In fact it fits into the political agenda of the Church of Atheism.. which is becoming de facto, a branch of the U.S. State.
Prohibiting the government from sponsoring a day of prayer, as we've seen them sponsor 'Pride Day' events and other abominations, is absurd. In fact it fits into the political agenda of the Church of Atheism.. which is becoming de facto, a branch of the U.S. State.
Last edited by coldstream; Apr 17th, 2010 at 02:26 PM..
#22
Re: Day of prayer is unconstitutional
Apr 17th, 2010Quote: Originally Posted by coldstream
So having a government sponsored day of prayer is irrelevant then...those who pray will pray when they want, not because the government says they should on any one day. That's right, prayer in fact bypasses Church and State and is direct communion with God. No one can be forced to pray, but no one can be prevented from doing so either.
Those don't pray will do as they would on any other day.
#23
Re: Day of prayer is unconstitutional
Apr 17th, 2010Quote: Originally Posted by coldstream
Then it can be quietly with no particular schedule, right, so as not to influence others by your praying? That's right, prayer in fact bypasses Church and State and is direct communion with God. No one can be forced to pray, but no one can be prevented from doing so either.
Quote:
Then it can sponsor the Islamic call to prayer, the Shinto burning of incense, etc., too.Prohibiting the government from sponsoring a day of prayer, as we've seen them sponsor 'Pride Day' events and other abominations, is absurd. In fact it fits into the political agenda of the Church of Atheism.. which is becoming de facto, a branch of the U.S. State.
#24
Re: Day of prayer is unconstitutional
Apr 17th, 2010
Schools even banned "moment of silence", what chance did "day of Prayer" have. I agree with the Judge.
#25
Re: Day of prayer is unconstitutional
Apr 17th, 2010Quote: Originally Posted by YukonJack
Sure, and unemployment is a job and bald is a hair style.... Atheist (yes, it IS a religion)...
#26
Re: Day of prayer is unconstitutional
Apr 17th, 2010Quote: Originally Posted by Dexter Sinister
You may get some that bite on that Dex, as unbelievable as that should be...Sure, and unemployment is a job and bald is a hair style.
#27
Re: Day of prayer is unconstitutional
Apr 17th, 2010
"Sure, and unemployment is a job and bald is a hair style."
Sure, generation after generation of welfare recipients DO consider unemployment a job.
Also, lot of clever people make money serving vain bald people, making tupees, wigs and hair transplants.
Sure, generation after generation of welfare recipients DO consider unemployment a job.
Also, lot of clever people make money serving vain bald people, making tupees, wigs and hair transplants.
#28
Re: Day of prayer is unconstitutional
Apr 17th, 2010
The First Admendment to the U.S. Constitution reads as follows.
The Establishment Clause of the First Amendment refers to the first of several pronouncements in the --, stating that "-- shall make no -- respecting an establishment of --". Together with the -- ("... or prohibiting the free exercise thereof"), these two clauses make up what are commonly known as the "religion clauses" of the First Amendment.
The establishment clause has generally been interpreted to prohibit 1) the establishment of a national religion by Congress, or 2) the preference of one religion over another. The first approach is called the "separation" or "no aid" interpretation, while the second approach is called the "non-preferential" or "accommodation" interpretation. The accommodation interpretation prohibits Congress from preferring one religion over another, but does not prohibit the government's entry into religious domain to make accommodations in order to achieve the purposes of the Free Exercise Clause.
The clause itself was seen as a reaction to the --, established as the official church of England and some of the colonies, during the colonial era.
The Establishment Clause of the First Amendment refers to the first of several pronouncements in the --, stating that "-- shall make no -- respecting an establishment of --". Together with the -- ("... or prohibiting the free exercise thereof"), these two clauses make up what are commonly known as the "religion clauses" of the First Amendment.
The establishment clause has generally been interpreted to prohibit 1) the establishment of a national religion by Congress, or 2) the preference of one religion over another. The first approach is called the "separation" or "no aid" interpretation, while the second approach is called the "non-preferential" or "accommodation" interpretation. The accommodation interpretation prohibits Congress from preferring one religion over another, but does not prohibit the government's entry into religious domain to make accommodations in order to achieve the purposes of the Free Exercise Clause.
The clause itself was seen as a reaction to the --, established as the official church of England and some of the colonies, during the colonial era.
#29
Re: Day of prayer is unconstitutional
Apr 17th, 2010Quote: Originally Posted by YukonJack
It sure is......Atheist (yes, it IS a religion)
I would even go so far as to say it is "An organized religion"
With a membership, Secret password and all.
If they have Bingo on Wednesday night...... Im in
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