$3 000 000.oo

china

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From- " What I didn't learn in school
but wish I had".......
If all the wealth on the planet were divided
equally, everyone would be worth close to 3 million dollars right now,
including people in third world countries .
____________________________________________________________

What are you waiting for?
 
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Cliffy

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Nov 19, 2008
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Ah, but then we wouldn't have a filthy rich ruling class to bitch about, or pictures of starving children to feel guilty about.
 

china

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Ah, but then we wouldn't have a filthy rich ruling class to bitch about, or pictures of starving children to feel guilty about.

Not to worry Cliffy.In about 12-15 month it would all be the same ;filthy reach and starving children, most of the money being in hands of 4% of the population .
 

Cliffy

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Cliffy

Please explain : ...why do you feel guilty about anything ?...why not use your energy for something more positive ,constructive ?

I was talking about the human race. I don't feel guilty at all. I choose my battles carefully.
 

JLM

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Nov 27, 2008
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Not to worry Cliffy.In about 12-15 month it would all be the same ;filthy reach and starving children, most of the money being in hands of 4% of the population .

I've heard it said that if all the money in the world was divided evenly, the ones who have it now would have it all back within two years. I tend to think there is a bit of truth in that. They'd definitely have MOST of it back but I think there are few who are intelligent enough to buck the trend and put the opportunity to good use.
 

china

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JLM

but I think there are few who are intelligent enough to buck the trend and put the opportunity ......
in order to make serious money you do not wait for opportunities JLM, you make them.
 

Machjo

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This is where I tend to differ from socialists. Though I agree that the rich might need to give some of their money to the poor, I think it would be more important to restructure the economy so that the wealth doesn't flow from poor to rich in the first place. Otherwise, we will eternally have to rely on the charity of the rich. Just to take one example:

According to Francois Grin of the University of Geneva in 2005, the EU is subsidizing the UK economy by from 17 to 18 thousand million euros annually on English-language teaching alone, even though the UK is already the wealthiest member per capita; and that a switch to an easier language would likely save the EU, including the UK and Ireland, 25 thousand million euros a year.

Now a socialist would just recommend that we tax the UK and give the money to the rest of the EU. The problem with that is that as long as the EU continues to feel the pressure to learn English, that money would flow back to the UK anyway. So what's the point?

The same could apply on a worldwide scale. Think of people from developing countries spending all their money to go to university in English-speaking countries like Canada, or buy books from such countries, or travel to suchcountries to practice their English, etc. Sure we could give them some of the money back, but if we just replaced English by an easier world language for international communication, much of that money would stop flowing to us in the first place.

I think if we looked for these injustices within the economic structure itself and restructured it along a more just system, then we woulnd't need to give them so much money anymore because they wouldn't be giving us so much money in the first place.

This is what I mean when I refer to structural problems at times, and when I criticize socialists for trying to solve the symptoms only but never the root causes.
 

darkbeaver

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Jan 26, 2006
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This is where I tend to differ from socialists. Though I agree that the rich might need to give some of their money to the poor, I think it would be more important to restructure the economy so that the wealth doesn't flow from poor to rich in the first place. Otherwise, we will eternally have to rely on the charity of the rich. Just to take one example:

According to Francois Grin of the University of Geneva in 2005, the EU is subsidizing the UK economy by from 17 to 18 thousand million euros annually on English-language teaching alone, even though the UK is already the wealthiest member per capita; and that a switch to an easier language would likely save the EU, including the UK and Ireland, 25 thousand million euros a year.

Now a socialist would just recommend that we tax the UK and give the money to the rest of the EU. The problem with that is that as long as the EU continues to feel the pressure to learn English, that money would flow back to the UK anyway. So what's the point?

The same could apply on a worldwide scale. Think of people from developing countries spending all their money to go to university in English-speaking countries like Canada, or buy books from such countries, or travel to suchcountries to practice their English, etc. Sure we could give them some of the money back, but if we just replaced English by an easier world language for international communication, much of that money would stop flowing to us in the first place.

I think if we looked for these injustices within the economic structure itself and restructured it along a more just system, then we woulnd't need to give them so much money anymore because they wouldn't be giving us so much money in the first place.

This is what I mean when I refer to structural problems at times, and when I criticize socialists for trying to solve the symptoms only but never the root causes.

Restructuring is a very good idea for redistribution, that's why it's proponents end up dead.
It is rumoured that the rich and powerfull are more than happy with the structure they bought and paid for. You want to fix something that isn't seen as broke by the ruling class.
What kind of mad restructuring revolutionary are you anyway? Just be cause you say you aren't socialist isn't going to fool the rich, as soon as you propose steming the flow of wealth from the poor to the rich you'll become a pinko terrorist and shown the door faster than you imagine possible. It's taken them forty years of careful restructuring to ruin the western world.
 
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Machjo

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The restructuring is a good idea, the attempts to restructure have always been ruined by the rich. You can run the idea by them from a safe distance if you like, make sure someone knows where you're going. You see the ultra rich as a symptom of poor structure and they know the structure that they built is just fine. I don't think you have enough respect for money Machjo. You think socialism has to cost too much, even in the face of the biggest economic debacle ever observed engineered by the rich capitalist class. How is that possible. We don't need money and they can't exist without it. I see a cure in the near future, there is hope for change.

It's not that I think socialism is too expensive; if we really wanted it, we could afford it. It's that I think socialism is too inefficient. Through restructuring of the free market itself, we could essentially ensure that money naturally stops flowing from poor to rich, as the concrete example above showed. Most socialists though, as well-intentioned as they are (and please understand that I do admire the NDP for its good intentions even if I do disagree with its policies), would ignore the structural problem (which is the root cause of the issue itself) and instead focus on just increasing the taxes of the rich and transfering the money back to the poor through a large and inefficient bureaucracy, increasing the risk of corruption along the way, money getting lost just as words do in a game of telephone tag.

If we look at the NDP platform, there is little analysis of the free market system itself. It's simply assumed that the free market system is corrupt and can never be changed and so there is no point in even trying to restructure it. Instead, they just forucus on increasing taxes and trying as best they can to redistribute it through a large bureaucracy.

Now if we acknowledge that a less confrontational approach between socialists and capitalists is possible, then we could restructure the free market system itself, which would certainly require government invovlement in the initial stages, but could be taken over by the private sectore later, thus not making us dependent on the government eternally.

Again, going back to the examples above, without restructuring, all thegovernment can do is forever tax the rich and try to give to the poor, leading to endless debates, election after election, as to how much to tax and how much to give.

But if we restructure, as with the language example above, though the government would need to promote it initially, once the new language becomes well established in the private sector, it would no longer need government support as it would be rooted already. That's what I mean by radical restructuring. Afterwards, once it's established,there woud be no more debate on this issue, so that the government could then move on to another part of the private sector to be restructured in the same way. And again, a part that once restructured, naturally entrenches itself into the private sector itself and thus need not have any more government intervention either. Would that not be more efficient that socialism. Essentially, it would be a marriage between capitalism and socialism rather than confrontation as socialists love all too much.
 

Machjo

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Another point. I do't peceive the rich as an evil force trying to thwarp any restructuring with an evil intent to keep their wealth. Rather, I'd say that those rich who oppose such restructuring might do so simpy out of ignorance of the systemic injustices in the system. Very different issue there.
 

darkbeaver

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Jan 26, 2006
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Another point. I do't peceive the rich as an evil force trying to thwarp any restructuring with an evil intent to keep their wealth. Rather, I'd say that those rich who oppose such restructuring might do so simpy out of ignorance of the systemic injustices in the system. Very different issue there.

It is resonably certain that psycopaths make up somewhere arround 6% of humanity, they can make hard decisions without the encumbrances of morals, ethics or conscience. They believe they own the world Machjo. If as you say they may only be ignorant of the systemic injustice in thier system this in no way excuses the misery. But that is most assuridly not the case, they know exactly what they do. Wheather they are stupid or evil or both there is no benifit to the species by suffering thier maintenance for another century or a decade or even another minute. Think of them as tuberculosis or cancer, they are natural throwbacks to the good old days Machjo
 

Machjo

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It is resonably certain that psycopaths make up somewhere arround 6% of humanity, they can make hard decisions without the encumbrances of morals, ethics or conscience. They believe they own the world Machjo. If as you say they may only be ignorant of the systemic injustice in thier system this in no way excuses the misery. But that is most assuridly not the case, they know exactly what they do. Wheather they are stupid or evil or both there is no benifit to the species by suffering thier maintenance for another century or a decade or even another minute. Think of them as tuberculosis or cancer, they are natural throwbacks to the good old days Machjo

Well, whether it's out of malice or not, at least we can agree that structural change is necessary. I'd made one recommendation for structural change above. Can you give any other concrete example?
 

darkbeaver

the universe is electric
Jan 26, 2006
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RR1 Distopia 666 Discordia
It's not that I think socialism is too expensive; if we really wanted it, we could afford it. It's that I think socialism is too inefficient. Through restructuring of the free market itself, we could essentially ensure that money naturally stops flowing from poor to rich, as the concrete example above showed. Most socialists though, as well-intentioned as they are (and please understand that I do admire the NDP for its good intentions even if I do disagree with its policies), would ignore the structural problem (which is the root cause of the issue itself) and instead focus on just increasing the taxes of the rich and transfering the money back to the poor through a large and inefficient bureaucracy, increasing the risk of corruption along the way, money getting lost just as words do in a game of telephone tag.

If we look at the NDP platform, there is little analysis of the free market system itself. It's simply assumed that the free market system is corrupt and can never be changed and so there is no point in even trying to restructure it. Instead, they just forucus on increasing taxes and trying as best they can to redistribute it through a large bureaucracy.

Now if we acknowledge that a less confrontational approach between socialists and capitalists is possible, then we could restructure the free market system itself, which would certainly require government invovlement in the initial stages, but could be taken over by the private sectore later, thus not making us dependent on the government eternally.

Again, going back to the examples above, without restructuring, all the government can do is forever tax the rich and try to give to the poor, leading to endless debates, election after election, as to how much to tax and how much to give.

But if we restructure, as with the language example above, though the government would need to promote it initially, once the new language becomes well established in the private sector, it would no longer need government support as it would be rooted already. That's what I mean by radical restructuring. Afterwards, once it's established,there woud be no more debate on this issue, so that the government could then move on to another part of the private sector to be restructured in the same way. And again, a part that once restructured, naturally entrenches itself into the private sector itself and thus need not have any more government intervention either. Would that not be more efficient that socialism. Essentially, it would be a marriage between capitalism and socialism rather than confrontation as socialists love all too much.

There is nothing any more inefficient and expensive in human social structure than
a bloated upper class. The poor have never once in all time matched or approached the wanton waste of the rich. When have the poor ever spent a nation in war?
Socialism and Capitalism have been married in Canada for a while, thirty-five years ago it looked like it would last, like it could work, then along came that simple minded dung shoveling pin head Ronnie Raygun and the hubby started hitting the deregulation bottle and raving about the enherant efficiencies of natural capital and the free market. That was the bottle talking Machjo, niether of those things exist. Look at the crippled economy, that was not the result of socialist sloth, it is the result of the efficiencys of "disaster capitalism", destruction builds portfolio value, that's a fact Mac.
Capitalism is not fit for humanity. Like you said it's the cause we wan't to address and not the symptom. I maintain that structurally capitalism is just about perfect now and it's never been more efficient, it takes cash directly from the public treasuries now without the expence of any product whatever except debt.
Efficient socialism isn't a pipedream like benevolent capitalism, free capital eats the poor every time and the middle class frequently.
Why should we continue to judge peoples worth from thier accumulation of gold. It's no bloody wonder we have fewer saints than we need these days.
It's divorce that's called for Machjo and a permanent restraining order.:smile:


 

Machjo

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OK DB, then I'd like to know which you think would be most efficient in the following case:

English hegemony: The more English spreads, the more money English-speaking countries make. A fine example of capitalism. A good example of supporters of this are, well, many governments, including the Conservative Party of Canada.

Wealth transfer: We leave the structural inequities in place, but just have the rich countries give more money to the poor countries, only for the money to flow right back to the rich countries for the process to start over again, like shovelling water out of a sinking ship. A fine example of socialism, and the NDP itself is one of tis proponents.

Restructuring: We replace English-language hegemony with universal bilingualism in a common auxiliary language. As a result, wealth stops flowing from poor coutries to rich in the first place, or at lest as far as spending on language education is concerned, thus eliminating, or at least reducing, the need for rich countries to give more money to the poor countries in the first place as the rich countries would then natrually become poorer and the poorer countries richer through a more just free market itself. A fine example of economic structrualism, and a few examples of supporters of this system would be Margareta Handzlick, the Italian Ministry of Education, and the Hungarian Ministry of Education. There is also Graham Steele, MLA for Halifax, but very few like him in Canada. Even the NDP ignores it.