Fiat to Chrysler: Cut costs or we walk

Liberalman

Senate Member
Mar 18, 2007
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http://business.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20090414.wrfiat15/BNStory/Business/home

General Motors in America was given until June 1 to solve their problems or they will be forced in a bankruptcy by the American government and now Fiat is prepared to walk away from the Chrysler deal if the Canadian and American unions don’t lower their wages to at least twenty dollars an hour.

The American auto manufacturers have to be competitive with the overseas car companies.

When you look at it the government of the foreign car companies have always subsidized their national car companies because they did not want the evil three American auto manufacturers to flood the market with their cheap cars.

A lot of those foreign made cars were filling a niche market when they exported their products and with government subsidization you can say they were able to offer those cars sometimes at a cheaper rates.

I always thought that the Canadian and American governments had anti-dumping laws but they turned a blind eye because of their lucrative trade agreements they had with those countries.

The big three American auto giants did a good job until now but when the credit dried up because of government meddling the car companies are suffering.

Once the credit opens up then it’s business as usual.

Most of the foreign car companies have three or four models in their line of products and each American car company has a lot more than that so they should.

According to Mitt Romney a republican American president hopeful on Meet The Press said that labour accounts for only three percent of the car costs, which means other people are making money.

And if the labour reduction wages demands are met will this mean a cheaper car or will it mean a big payday for the shareowners and stakeholders.

How ironic that American President Obama who campaigned for more good paying jobs is ready to sacrifice jobs.

The messiah that was here to save the world and he is turning out to be another false profit.
 

TenPenny

Hall of Fame Member
Jun 9, 2004
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The 'big 3' have NOT done 'a good job until now'...GM has been running into the ground for about 10 years. Chrysler is such a basket case that Daimler sold it off for a pittance after struggling with it for a few years.

Government meddling has nothing to do with GM's inability to make itself competitive, it's more to do with their marketing - make 75 versions of the same vehicle, sell it under 5 different brand/model numbers, and hope people are willing to buy it.

Chrysler's quality has been horrible for years and years and years. People don't want to buy poorly built crap, when they have an alternative.

Ford was on the verge of bankruptcy a few years ago, but is likely to emerge as the strongest of the three.

Did you notice in the GM restructing plan, there was a chart that showed that the typical North American built Chrysler has 76% content from North America; the typical North American built Toyota has 75%. In other words, they've got the same amount of 'local' content, but one will last 2years, one will last 10.

Which one would you buy?
 

dumpthemonarchy

House Member
Jan 18, 2005
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www.cynicsunlimited.com
If FIAT, formerly nicknamed Fix It Again Tony, says Chrysler is muck, then it is muck. NA automakers can't make money off small cars which are profitable to Asian automakers who have cut their costs to the bone, which is why Detroit is on the ropes.

Japan has so many automakers, Toyota, Mazda, Suzuki, Nissan, Honda, Mitsubishi; in Korea there are GM Daewoo, Hyundai and Kia in Korea, and they all make money. Then India and China are looming. The Asian automotive tidal wave is here. Surf's up in Detroit and Windsor!
 

Trex

Electoral Member
Apr 4, 2007
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Hither and yon
http://business.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20090414.wrfiat15/BNStory/Business/home

General Motors in America was given until June 1 to solve their problems or they will be forced in a bankruptcy by the American government and now Fiat is prepared to walk away from the Chrysler deal if the Canadian and American unions don’t lower their wages to at least twenty dollars an hour.

The American auto manufacturers have to be competitive with the overseas car companies.

When you look at it the government of the foreign car companies have always subsidized their national car companies because they did not want the evil three American auto manufacturers to flood the market with their cheap cars.

A lot of those foreign made cars were filling a niche market when they exported their products and with government subsidization you can say they were able to offer those cars sometimes at a cheaper rates.

I always thought that the Canadian and American governments had anti-dumping laws but they turned a blind eye because of their lucrative trade agreements they had with those countries.

The big three American auto giants did a good job until now but when the credit dried up because of government meddling the car companies are suffering.

Once the credit opens up then it’s business as usual.

Most of the foreign car companies have three or four models in their line of products and each American car company has a lot more than that so they should.

According to Mitt Romney a republican American president hopeful on Meet The Press said that labour accounts for only three percent of the car costs, which means other people are making money.

And if the labour reduction wages demands are met will this mean a cheaper car or will it mean a big payday for the shareowners and stakeholders.

How ironic that American President Obama who campaigned for more good paying jobs is ready to sacrifice jobs.

The messiah that was here to save the world and he is turning out to be another false profit.

People in Canada and US of A obviously would have preffered to buy North American cars if possible.
However time and time again North Americans were forced to face the reality that American big three cars were of poor to mediocre manufactor.
Nobody now disputes Toyota for years has had better engineering, reliability or fit and finish.
Just read all the backdated JD Powers and consumer reports.

The North American unions did a great job at extracting every last nickle in wages and benifits that they could.
And lets face it, that is the unions main job.
And finally the whole house of cards came crashing down, too many shoddy overpriced cars trying to compete with a better product.

Cereberus is purchased Chrysler/Dodge for nickles on the dollar.
They thought they scored a great, deeply discounted car company.
By and large they got crap and debt.
Cereberus has gobs and gobs of cash and they are a privately owned investment group.
If they wont fund Chrysler why would taxpayers?
And why should Canadians bail out American companies in the first place?
Chrysler is toast.
GM gets a quick rinse American bankruptcy.
And Ford keeps on chugging.

Trex
 

darkbeaver

the universe is electric
Jan 26, 2006
41,035
201
63
RR1 Distopia 666 Discordia
People in Canada and US of A obviously would have preffered to buy North American cars if possible.
However time and time again North Americans were forced to face the reality that American big three cars were of poor to mediocre manufactor.
Nobody now disputes Toyota for years has had better engineering, reliability or fit and finish.
Just read all the backdated JD Powers and consumer reports.

The North American unions did a great job at extracting every last nickle in wages and benifits that they could.
And lets face it, that is the unions main job.
And finally the whole house of cards came crashing down, too many shoddy overpriced cars trying to compete with a better product.


Cereberus is purchased Chrysler/Dodge for nickles on the dollar.
They thought they scored a great, deeply discounted car company.
By and large they got crap and debt.
Cereberus has gobs and gobs of cash and they are a privately owned investment group.
If they wont fund Chrysler why would taxpayers?
And why should Canadians bail out American companies in the first place?
Chrysler is toast.
GM gets a quick rinse American bankruptcy.
And Ford keeps on chugging.

Trex


So you would eliminate unions which will and has driven wages down. This of course is puts NA manufactured products further from the reach of consumers. It does highlight the poverty of thought of the right and the very short list of options available to save capitalists and capitalism. If consummers don't earn money they cannot spend it. Oh, that short list, it's global war, there isn't any other option for capitalists of capitalism.
 
Last edited:

Ron in Regina

"Voice of the West" Party
Apr 9, 2008
23,117
7,989
113
Regina, Saskatchewan
If CAW doesn't bent, then Chrysler doesn't get Gov't $$$ in Canada 'cuz
Fiat walks away from a merger with Chrysler. Chrysler then goes under in
Canada. :-?

Canada demands repayment of funds already passed out. Revenue Canada
seizes all assets on Canadian soil due to the back-taxes owed in the
neighborhood of a Billion dollars.... 8O

....and Fiat purchases these assets for pennies on the dollar from the
Canadian Government, and sets up shop here with the CAW on the outside
of the fence looking in. Fiat hires people (outside of the CAW) to build Fiat's
in Canada. Life goes on. Fiat then pays taxes to the Canadian Government,
as do their employees. :-|
_______________________
 

darkbeaver

the universe is electric
Jan 26, 2006
41,035
201
63
RR1 Distopia 666 Discordia
Great, the wageless economy. Ask a capitalist where the low limit of bending is. They'll tell you there isn't one and that's the way they like it. I know lots of people are tired of bending and tired of listening to the suits. Things will be different soon. Where a tie you're sure to die. Many people refuse to see the writing on the wall most of all those clinging to the notion of membership in the capitalists ruling cliques. Them days are so over.
 

#juan

Hall of Fame Member
Aug 30, 2005
18,326
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I can't for the life of me see how the North American automakers can be saved. I can't think of one vehicle made by a North American company that I would want to buy. I can't see any American vehicle that even comes close to the quality of the Honda Accord, or the Toyota Camry, or the Nissan Altima. Hell, the Hyundais are as good as any North American vehicle and they cost half as much and have a better warrantee. I haven't bought a North American car for years and my last experience does not encourage me to buy another. Why are we even thinking about bailing the "big three" out? It seems to me to be just putting off the inevitable.
 

Ron in Regina

"Voice of the West" Party
Apr 9, 2008
23,117
7,989
113
Regina, Saskatchewan
If CAW doesn't bent, then Chrysler doesn't get Gov't $$$ in Canada 'cuz
Fiat walks away from a merger with Chrysler. Chrysler then goes under in
Canada. :-?

Canada demands repayment of funds already passed out. Revenue Canada
seizes all assets on Canadian soil due to the back-taxes owed in the
neighborhood of a Billion dollars.... 8O

....and Fiat purchases these assets for pennies on the dollar from the
Canadian Government, and sets up shop here with the CAW on the outside
of the fence looking in. Fiat hires people (outside of the CAW) to build Fiat's
in Canada. Life goes on. Fiat then pays taxes to the Canadian Government,
as do their employees. :-|
_______________________


Clement takes tough line with Chrysler union


By Nicolas Van Praet, Financial Post April 16, 2009 12:05 PM
Source: Clement takes tough line with Chrysler union

The Canadian government is hardening its stance towards organized labour, saying
it will not use taxpayer dollars to support Chrysler LLC unless the Canadian Auto
Workers makes significant concessions the union has already rejected.

“The CAW has to recognize that in order for Chrysler to survive in this country,
Chrysler has to be competitive in the Canadian market,” Mr. Clement said
Thursday. “If there’s no [labour] deal in place, there’s no deal with the
Canadian government.”

Chrysler wants the union to lower all-in pay and benefits costs from the current
range of about $76 to $57, which is what Toyota Motor Corp. pays its Canadian
factory workers, according to sources familiar with the discussions. The CAW is
adamant that it will not make up the $19 per hour gap but has said it is willing to
negotiate.

The Canadian government has pledged $1-billion to Chrysler to help it stabilize its
two manufacturing plants in Canada and restructure its business. Ottawa will recall
the loans if Chrysler fails to strike a new labour deal by April 30 as part of a
planned commercial partnership with Italian automaker Fiat SpA, Mr. Clement told
reporters in Toronto Thursday.

Fiat, seeking to steer Chrysler to a new life through an initial 20% investment in
the automaker, said this week that unions in both the United States and Canada
must lower costs more or it will walk away from the alliance.

“With April 30 looming very closely on the horizon, the CAW has to do its part,”
Mr. Clement said. “This is not an easy thing, but the alternative is, there’s no deal
in place. And if there’s no deal in place, there will not be long-term funding
arrangements with the government of Canada, and in fact we have the right to
call our loans.”

The CAW wants to offer Chrysler a variation of the new labour deal it has already
struck with General Motors Corp. through a system known as patttern bargaining.
Industry sources estimate the savings of that deal at $7.25 per hour, short of what
Chrysler and Ford Motor Co. need to justify building cars in Canada.

The CAW has always insisted on pattern bargaining as a way to offer roughly the
same labour deal to all three Detroit automakers and prevent one from having an
advantage over the other. But Mr. Clement said pattern bargaining is dead.

“We’re beyond that now. It’s about competitiveness,” he said. “I am not
satisfied.”

GM, which has been promised $3-billion in federal and provincial aid, will also have
to renegotiate its contract with the CAW, Mr. Clement said. Asked if the
government would be willing to take an equity stake in the automakers to protect
its investment, he said “Everything is on the table.” No government funds have yet
flowed to GM.

“Compromises have to be made” on labour contracts, said Rob Wildeboer,
executive chairman of Canadian auto supplier Martinrea International Inc., whose
workforce is partly unionized.

“The key for the supply base is that we get paid,” Mr. Wildeboer said when asked
about a potential Chrysler or GM bankruptcy protection filing. He said he believes
critical suppliers, comprising the vast majority of suppliers, will be paid in a
creditor protection situation.

“In the automotive industry, all suppliers are critical... You can't ship a car without
a gas pedal.” The key issue is what the court decides to do with any oustanding
receivables owing before the filing is made, he said.

Ken Lewenza, CAW President, said Wednesday that given all the billions of debt and
complicated talks Chrysler is having with lenders and other stakeholders, labour
alone would not make or break the Chrysler-Fiat deal. He said the CAW expects
to resume bargaining with Chrysler on Monday.

Mr. Clement was in Toronto to announce details of a new $145-million five-year
auto research fund, designed to support research and development in alternative
fuels and other technology. The fund’s project office has been set up and has
begun working with potential applicants.
___________________________
 

dumpthemonarchy

House Member
Jan 18, 2005
4,235
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www.cynicsunlimited.com
In our so called "free market capitalist system", we had the media, unions, provincial, municipal, state and federal gov'ts all in cahoots to support the auto industry. Then quality slid and costs rose. Any job was a good job. A system about as efficient as the federal gov't's accounting methods. They say the ruling class is the last to know the revolution has begun.

It's all going to crater big time. The automotive asteroid is going to hit.
 

#juan

Hall of Fame Member
Aug 30, 2005
18,326
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$2137.50 per week is not enough? That is over a hundred and ten thou a year in an industry that is racing down the toilet. These people don't deserve this kind of money, especially when nobody wants the product they are producing.

A good plumber gets about $22.00 per hour. They can take that or leave it.
 

JLM

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 27, 2008
75,301
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Vernon, B.C.
$2137.50 per week is not enough? That is over a hundred and ten thou a year in an industry that is racing down the toilet. These people don't deserve this kind of money, especially when nobody wants the product they are producing.

A good plumber gets about $22.00 per hour. They can take that or leave it.

Exactly.
 

SirJosephPorter

Time Out
Nov 7, 2008
11,956
56
48
Ontario
What happens between FIAT, Chrysler CAW is up to them and nobody’s business. Government should not give money to Chrysler unless there is a guarantee that it is going to survive.

How they guarantee the survival of Chrysler is upto FIAT, Chrysler and CAW. Let them negotiate wages down to 57$ an hours or up to 100 $ an hour. If government is going to pay Chrysler money (something which I do not really support), there must be ironclad guarantee that Chrysler will survive.

If FIAT negotiations break down let Chrysler declare bankruptcy. Then all the contracts are automatically null and void, everybody is fired, union workers and the management alike. Then some of them can be rehired at reduced salaries, wages and benefits, something the company can afford.

But it is all private enterprise and nobody’s business. Government should not get involved unless survival of Chrysler is guaranteed.
 
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petterhny

New Member
Apr 17, 2009
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Netherlands
Earlier in the discussion Liberalman mensioned:
When you look at it the government of the foreign car companies have always subsidized their national car companies because they did not want the evil three American auto manufacturers to flood the market with their cheap cars.
This is not so much true as you may think. The overseas markets have never been suitable for the Big Three. When you go to Europe or Asia you will be suprized by the number of non-american cars, as it should. This is partly because of the size of the cars which is a problem in countries like Japan, and the huge engines which needs a lot of expensive gas and it is a fact that you have to pay over $80k to get the same quality as a $50k Volkswagen or Toyota. As Japanese and European car manufacterors are now developing lighter and cleaner cars, it is not less than logical that they sell better.
 

YukonJack

Time Out
Dec 26, 2008
7,026
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Winnipeg
Why is a GM/Chrysler/Ford assembly line worker makes more than a 15 year old McDonald part-timer? What makes him/her think he/she deserves more?

Not better educated. Not harder worker.

And certainly not smarter. Right now it seems that they would rather not have job at all, than earn their rightful wages, the wages that their capabilities, education, industriousness, diligence and ambition qualifies them for.

A bit less than the kids at McDonald.
 

JLM

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 27, 2008
75,301
547
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Vernon, B.C.
I saw the autoworkers on the news tonight and they were pretty disgrunted about some letter they got asking for concessions. What I'd like to know before making a judgment is exactly what hourly wage does management and the gov't. want them cut back to? If it's less than $20 an hour I am on the worker's side. If it's more than $25 an hour I have absolutely no pity for them and see them as just a bunch of friggin whiners, while others are doing tougher jobs at 1/3 what they are being paid. I'd like to see this as a country where everyone can afford three nourishing meals every day and a dry warm shelter, adequate medical care and decent clothes to wear, before a select few can drive B.M.W.s and fly off to exotic lands for annual holidays. But I want to see EVERYONE work for what they get, unless they are retired.
 

JLM

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 27, 2008
75,301
547
113
Vernon, B.C.
Why is a GM/Chrysler/Ford assembly line worker makes more than a 15 year old McDonald part-timer? What makes him/her think he/she deserves more?

Not better educated. Not harder worker.

And certainly not smarter. Right now it seems that they would rather not have job at all, than earn their rightful wages, the wages that their capabilities, education, industriousness, diligence and ambition qualifies them for.

A bit less than the kids at McDonald.

I'm inclined to agree with you, Y.J. (and it wasn't even a frosty Friday- just Friday)
 

#juan

Hall of Fame Member
Aug 30, 2005
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(sigh)

i remember when FIAT meant Feeble Italian Attempt at Transportation.

(sigh)
Actually it stands for Fabbrica Italiana Automobili Torino and they haven't sold in North America for years, but I remember on the Autostrada that every Italian drove his FIAT 600 at the red line with one foot on the gas and one hand on the horn.