A Victory for Human Rights in Canada

[SirJosephPorter]

Supreme Court just handed a major victory to opponents of death penalty.

Robert Smith is a convicted murderer from Alberta, given the death penalty in Montana. When Liberals were in power, they did all they could to help Mr. Smith appeal the death sentence and try to get it commuted to life without parole.

However, then the Messiah (Harper) came to power. Messiah enthusiastically supports death penalty, as do many Conservatives. But of course he knew he could not dig up the issue here in Canada. The issue was settled long time ago, and he would be committing political suicide if he tried to dig it up.

However, abroad is a different matter. If he could not promote the death penalty in Canada, the Messiah (and his bloodthirsty crew) would try to promote it aboard, wherever possible. The obvious place is of course, the USA, where they are in love with the death penalty.

So one of the first things Messiah did when he came to power was to stop aiding Robert Smith in any way in his appeal of the death sentence. I think that was a sop to religious right. Religious right enthusiastically supports the death penalty, more deaths the better, because the Bible supposedly mandates the death penalty (on this reasonable Christians disagree). Eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth, that kind of thing.

While Harper does not belong to religious right, he has to keep the religious right happy. So he stopped helping Smith in his appeal to get the death penalty commuted.

Well, now the courts have weight in against the Messiah. The federal government must help an Alberta man convicted of murder in the United States seek clemency from his death sentence, the Federal Court of Canada has ruled.

Court orders Ottawa to help Canadian on death row

Chalk up another victory for human rights, another blow against death penalty.

 

[CDNBear]

I wonder what your tune would be if the US demanded Canada bend its laws for them...:roll:

The riddling of fringe commentary made this a humourous piece to read though. :lol:

 

[Colpy]

Supreme Court just handed a major victory to opponents of death penalty.

Robert Smith is a convicted murderer from Alberta, given the death penalty in Montana. When Liberals were in power, they did all they could to help Mr. Smith appeal the death sentence and try to get it commuted to life without parole.

However, then the Messiah (Harper) came to power. Messiah enthusiastically supports death penalty, as do many Conservatives. But of course he knew he could not dig up the issue here in Canada. The issue was settled long time ago, and he would be committing political suicide if he tried to dig it up.

However, abroad is a different matter. If he could not promote the death penalty in Canada, the Messiah (and his bloodthirsty crew) would try to promote it aboard, wherever possible. The obvious place is of course, the USA, where they are in love with the death penalty.

So one of the first things Messiah did when he came to power was to stop aiding Robert Smith in any way in his appeal of the death sentence. I think that was a sop to religious right. Religious right enthusiastically supports the death penalty, more deaths the better, because the Bible supposedly mandates the death penalty (on this reasonable Christians disagree). Eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth, that kind of thing.

While Harper does not belong to religious right, he has to keep the religious right happy. So he stopped helping Smith in his appeal to get the death penalty commuted.

Well, now the courts have weight in against the Messiah. The federal government must help an Alberta man convicted of murder in the United States seek clemency from his death sentence, the Federal Court of Canada has ruled.

Court orders Ottawa to help Canadian on death row

Chalk up another victory for human rights, another blow against death penalty.

This is SUCH a pile.

first of all, the Conservative party has never made re-institution of the death penalty part of their platform

secondly, if you looked at the issue, you would find religious institutions were long at the forefront of the struggle AGAINST the death penalty.

third, exactly how do you think the Harper gov't can help with a man already sentenced to death in the USA? In the USA, it costs more to execute a man that to keep him in prison for life, because the American system, and anti-death penalty folks there ensure that every avenue for clemency is fully explored......

So, let us see.....in this one post you have managed to smear Harper, the Conservative Party, Canada's mainstream churches, the Americans......all in one.

With lies, innuendo, and bullshiit.

Outrageous!

Oh, BTW....I just read the article........

First of all, the monster to be executed is a racist double murderer.........he killed two young Aborignal men who were kind enough to give him a ride.

Second of all, it was NOT the Supreme Court, but the Federal Court.......the argument is far from over.

You could AT LEAST get SOME of your facts straight.

 

[RanchHand]

You make it sound like the rights of the oppressed are being championed.
The death penalty is part of the law in the US and the guy has been on death row for years. Rather than refer to him as "a convicted murderer" how about editing your post to read:

"The Red Deer man was sentenced to death in March 1983, seven months after he killed two aboriginal men who offered him a ride while hitchhiking.
He marched cousins Harvey Mad Man, 23, and Thomas Running Rabbit, 20, into the woods by the highway and shot them both in the head with a sawed-off .22-calibre rifle."

 

[CDNBear]

But guys, it's the Canadian way. We have to save the life of this scumbag.

Remember Ng, how about Khadar?

Let's save them all. Hell the Sudanese President will be on the run soon. I'm sure we can find space for him here too.

 

[Goober]

Supreme Court just handed a major victory to opponents of death penalty.

Robert Smith is a convicted murderer from Alberta, given the death penalty in Montana. When Liberals were in power, they did all they could to help Mr. Smith appeal the death sentence and try to get it commuted to life without parole.

However, then the Messiah (Harper) came to power. Messiah enthusiastically supports death penalty, as do many Conservatives. But of course he knew he could not dig up the issue here in Canada. The issue was settled long time ago, and he would be committing political suicide if he tried to dig it up.

However, abroad is a different matter. If he could not promote the death penalty in Canada, the Messiah (and his bloodthirsty crew) would try to promote it aboard, wherever possible. The obvious place is of course, the USA, where they are in love with the death penalty.

So one of the first things Messiah did when he came to power was to stop aiding Robert Smith in any way in his appeal of the death sentence. I think that was a sop to religious right. Religious right enthusiastically supports the death penalty, more deaths the better, because the Bible supposedly mandates the death penalty (on this reasonable Christians disagree). Eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth, that kind of thing.

While Harper does not belong to religious right, he has to keep the religious right happy. So he stopped helping Smith in his appeal to get the death penalty commuted.

Well, now the courts have weight in against the Messiah. The federal government must help an Alberta man convicted of murder in the United States seek clemency from his death sentence, the Federal Court of Canada has ruled.

Court orders Ottawa to help Canadian on death row

Chalk up another victory for human rights, another blow against death penalty.

SJP

So should Canada now if clemency is awarded offer to take him back under the prisoner exchange treaty with the US

The ruling was made because of as the Court said – No coherent Govt policy – How long before a policy will come out is the major question – So the Govt will either appeal or start writing a new and clear policy – That in itself would cause problems because of countries like China and Saudi do like their death penalty.

I disagree with the Cons policy on this but this scumbag should stay there and rot in jail –

And your opinion on my points is???

 

[SirJosephPorter]

Goober, we are in almost total agreement. I also disagree with government policy. As to whether Canada should take him back, I don’t have strong views about the matter. We may as well leave him in Montana to serve out his sentence. If Montana governor makes the clemency conditional upon Canada taking him back, then of course we should bring him back to Canada (that is the price we pay for being a humane, compassionate society and not permit death penalty).

But here or in USA, there should be no question of releasing him, ever. It should be truly life without parole.

So the Govt will either appeal or start writing a new and clear policy

The new policy could go in both directions. The more likely policy would be that government will help all the criminals abroad sentenced to death, whether in USA or elsewhere. Messiah could write the policy other way, and decide not to help Canadians sentenced to death anywhere in the world (to appease the religious right).

However, politically this strategy could be dangerous to Conservatives. Suppose a woman is sentenced to death in Saudi Arabia, death by stoning for adultery. Government does nothing to help her; she is stoned to death by a vicious, slavering mob. The footage is broadcast all over the world. That probably will be enough for Conservatives to lose the election.

So it is very likely that the policy will be amended so that all the death row Canadians are helped. Or government could appeal, that will merely postpone the evil day by a few months. The policy will eventually have to be rewritten.

 

[SirJosephPorter]

So, let us see.....in this one post you have managed to smear Harper, the Conservative Party, Canada's mainstream churches, the Americans......all in one.

Colpy, I managed to do all that in one post? Wow, I must be really good.

first of all, the Conservative party has never made re-institution of the death penalty part of their platform

And that is what I said in my post. Messiah knows that it will be political suicide to dig up the issue, so he didn’t touch it, here in Canada.

if you looked at the issue, you would find religious institutions were long at the forefront of the struggle AGAINST the death penalty

That is true of mainline Protestant Churches and the Catholic Church (just about the only issue on which I agree with Catholic Church). However, the religious right, the Fundamentalist Churches have always been clamouring for death penalty. I have no doubt that religious right would like to bring back the death penalty to Canada, if they could.

exactly how do you think the Harper gov't can help with a man already sentenced to death in the USA? In the USA,

That is easy. Canadian government could petition the Montana governor for clemency. If the appeal fails, that is the end of that. All that is required is that Canadian government make an effort, there is no guarantee of success. However, the Messiah wouldn’t even make an effort.

First of all, the monster to be executed is a racist double murderer.........he killed two young Aborignal men who were kind enough to give him a ride.

That doesn’t matter; it is the question of principle. Canadians are entitled to right to life, no matter where they are in the world, and it is incumbent upon Canadian government to do everything in its power to save the lives of Canadians all the world over. I agree that his crimes were truly heinous. So give him life without parole, lock him up for his life. But death penalty? No way.

Second of all, it was NOT the Supreme Court, but the Federal Court.......the argument is far from over.

You could AT LEAST get SOME of your facts straight.

I never said that the argument is over; you clearly didn’t read my post properly. What I said is that it was a great victory for human rights, and I stand by it. Sure the government can appeal to Supreme Court, but in my opinion, chances of the appeal succeeding are minimal.

 

[SirJosephPorter]

I wonder what your tune would be if the US demanded Canada bend its laws for them...:roll:

The riddling of fringe commentary made this a humourous piece to read though. :lol:

This is not a question of bending the American laws, CDNBear. Smith has already been sentenced to death, American laws have been observed to the letter.

But anybody is permitted to petition the Montana Governor for clemency, it is all part of the process. If Canadian government applies to Montana Governor for clemency, it is not breaking (or even bending) any laws. It is within the powers of the Governor to commute his sentence to life without parole.

So I think it is incumbent upon Canadian government to apply to the Governor for clemency on behalf of Smith. As I said before, if the appeal doesn’t succeed, it doesn’t succeed, that is the end of it. But then Canadian government would have done all it could to save Smith’s life, that is government’s duty.

 

[SirJosephPorter]

You make it sound like the rights of the oppressed are being championed.

No RanchHand, rights of Canadians are being championed.

The death penalty is part of the law in the US and the guy has been on death row for years.

Sure it is, but appeal to the Governor for clemency is also part of the process. Canadian government should lend its weight to the appeal. If Canadian government appeals to the Governor (instead of Smith appealing), it has a much greater chance of success.

 

[Goober]

SJP
What you fail to consider is how courts are loath to interfere with Foreign Policy – and this is Foreign Policy -

 

[SirJosephPorter]

But guys, it's the Canadian way. We have to save the life of this scumbag.

CDNBear, we have to save the life of a Canadian. If he has committed crimes (and he has), he should be punished for it, in this instance I think life without parole should fit the bill.

But we don’t put Canadians to death in this country, and it is the obligation of the government to try to save lives of Canadians anywhere in the world, to do everything it can, employ all the legitimate means.

 

[Goober]

But guys, it's the Canadian way. We have to save the life of this scumbag.

CDNBear, we have to save the life of a Canadian. If he has committed crimes (and he has), he should be punished for it, in this instance I think life without parole should fit the bill.

But we don’t put Canadians to death in this country, and it is the obligation of the government to try to save lives of Canadians anywhere in the world, to do everything it can, employ all the legitimate means.

SJP
Wrong again – Many countries have imprisonment that is severe compared to Canada – That would mean we better hire another 500 lawyers – and please realize they are al related from Death penalty to sentences that would not be considered the norm in Canada – That is where this ball can roll.

 

[SirJosephPorter]

SJP
What you fail to consider is how courts are loath to interfere with Foreign Policy – and this is Foreign Policy -

I don’t think it is a foreign policy issue, Goober, I think it is human rights issue. The court wouldn’t get involved in whether Canada should have diplomatic relations with a country, or should have trade treaties with a country etc. Those are foreign policy issues and the proper jurisdiction of government.

But this is a human rights issue. Since we don’t have death penalty in Canada, death penalty abroad represents cruel and unusual punishment (for a Canadian). Now, what Americans do to American citizens is their business. But if Americans are giving cruel and unusual punishment to a Canadian, sure the courts will get involved.

Incidentally, if a Canadian is subjected to death penalty in Saudi Arabia or China, the Messiah will get involved, that is the policy. But he has made an exception, a special case when it comes to USA (as I have said before, he was in awe of Bush).

And I think that is what the court was objecting to. So it is a human rights issue, not a foreign policy issue.

 

[Colpy]

So, let us see.....in this one post you have managed to smear Harper, the Conservative Party, Canada's mainstream churches, the Americans......all in one.

Colpy, I managed to do all that in one post? Wow, I must be really good.

You did, and I stand amazed at the effort so expended......you do understand all the connotations of the word smear, do you not?

first of all, the Conservative party has never made re-institution of the death penalty part of their platform

And that is what I said in my post. Messiah knows that it will be political suicide to dig up the issue, so he didn’t touch it, here in Canada.

True enough. One point your way.

if you looked at the issue, you would find religious institutions were long at the forefront of the struggle AGAINST the death penalty

That is true of mainline Protestant Churches and the Catholic Church (just about the only issue on which I agree with Catholic Church). However, the religious right, the Fundamentalist Churches have always been clamouring for death penalty. I have no doubt that religious right would like to bring back the death penalty to Canada, if they could.

Ah, excuse me? exactly which Fundamentalist Churches would they be, that support the death penalty......and that are so numerous in followers that Harper has to play up to them? Let me give you a hint........they don't exist. You might find some cult of whackos that want to hang fornicators.....but the Conservative Party is most assuredly NOT playing to them........indeed, you have to look very hard to tell the difference between the CPC and the Liberals........

Minus one point for fabrication. (or delusion)

exactly how do you think the Harper gov't can help with a man already sentenced to death in the USA? In the USA,

That is easy. Canadian government could petition the Montana governor for clemency. If the appeal fails, that is the end of that. All that is required is that Canadian government make an effort, there is no guarantee of success. However, the Messiah wouldn’t even make an effort.

What, you think the anti-capital punishment folks in Montana aren't already there? You think the Governor of Montana will not consider clemency without Canada's involvement? Or do you seriously think a foreign country will weigh heavily on the Governors scale of decision?.....Canadians can't vote in Montana.

No points added or taken away, just this: :roll:

First of all, the monster to be executed is a racist double murderer.........he killed two young Aborignal men who were kind enough to give him a ride.

That doesn’t matter; it is the question of principle. Canadians are entitled to right to life, no matter where they are in the world, and it is incumbent upon Canadian government to do everything in its power to save the lives of Canadians all the world over. I agree that his crimes were truly heinous. So give him life without parole, lock him up for his life. But death penalty? No way.

Were I the governor of Montana, I'd say to the Canadian gov't, on a point of principle ....."OK, I'll pardon him, and escort him to the Canadian border to be set free in Canada.....or not. Your choice."

And, BTW, the SOB to be executed requested the death penalty.....I can find no tears to spare for him.

Point: Do you believe in the right to die? :smile:

Second of all, it was NOT the Supreme Court, but the Federal Court.......the argument is far from over.

You could AT LEAST get SOME of your facts straight.

I never said that the argument is over; you clearly didn’t read my post properly. What I said is that it was a great victory for human rights, and I stand by it. Sure the government can appeal to Supreme Court, but in my opinion, chances of the appeal succeeding are minimal.

"Supreme Court just handed a major victory to opponents of death penalty"
the first line of your post. I think I read it correctly.

Hardly a victory for "human rights", as you put it, considering the Federal Court recognized in his decision that the government had the right to change the policy, but ruled it was unfair to change it midstream with this one case.....in other words, the decision applies ONLY to this case, or other cases under way BEFORE the policy changed.....with a recognition of the gov'ts right to change that policy.....

 

[SirJosephPorter]

SJP
Wrong again – Many countries have imprisonment that is severe compared to Canada – That would mean we better hire another 500 lawyers – and please realize they are al related from Death penalty to sentences that would not be considered the norm in Canada – That is where this ball can roll.

That is a matter of perspective Goober. Whether a criminal would be sentenced to 5 years in Canada or 10 years elsewhere, the difference is only in degree. Or conditions in prison in third world may not be as good as conditions in Canadian prisons. When a person decided to commit a crime abroad, he must face the consequences.

Death penalty however, is a different matter. The difference between death penalty and life without parole is not one of degree, but the difference is life and death.

While I don’t see any obligation on the part of the government to try to reduce a criminals’ sentence from 10 years to 5 years, I definitely see an obligation on the part of government to try to save the lives of Canadians abroad.

 

[Goober]

That is a matter of perspective Goober. Whether a criminal would be sentenced to 5 years in Canada or 10 years elsewhere, the difference is only in degree. Or conditions in prison in third world may not be as good as conditions in Canadian prisons. When a person decided to commit a crime abroad, he must face the consequences.

Death penalty however, is a different matter. The difference between death penalty and life without parole is not one of degree, but the difference is life and death.

While I don’t see any obligation on the part of the government to try to reduce a criminals’ sentence from 10 years to 5 years, I definitely see an obligation on the part of government to try to save the lives of Canadians abroad.

SJP
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20090304.wdeathsentence0304/BNStory/National/home
In 2007, Public Safety Minister Stockwell Day told Parliament that Ottawa would no longer seek clemency for Mr. Smith or any other multiple murderer facing the death penalty in a democratic country.
Judge Barnes said that fundamental fairness dictates that Canada move quickly to exert its diplomatic influence to stave off Mr. Smith's impending execution and pave the way for his possible transfer to a prison in Canada.
The courts are also ordering the Govt to act upon an option that is within the treaty on prisoner transfers – That in effect orders the Govt to act upon this option – That fall under Foreign Policy – A treaty signed with another country – So in effect the court is taking the right of a duly elected Govt and ordering them to avail themselves of an option –“the right, power, or freedom to make a choice”
Now how will that impact upon other treaties – example – under article 5 of NATO which was invoked in Sept 01, we as a country were required to assist the US when attacked – no option – If the Govt failed to meet their obligations does it not follow that the courts can order the Govt to do so?

It gets real messy – not a simple case of human rights – but Govt prerogative to act or not.

 

[RanchHand]

But guys, it's the Canadian way. We have to save the life of this scumbag.

CDNBear, we have to save the life of a Canadian. If he has committed crimes (and he has), he should be punished for it, in this instance I think life without parole should fit the bill.

But we don’t put Canadians to death in this country, and it is the obligation of the government to try to save lives of Canadians anywhere in the world, to do everything it can, employ all the legitimate means.

Obviously it doesn't matter what you think the punsihment should be. How does it follow that because you don't have capital punishment in Canada that Canadians can roam the world immune to capital punishment anywhere, but a Haitian, for example, might not be given a get out of jail card because the Haitian government doesn't have it's act togetether or the Haitian government cannot pull strings the way the Canadian government might be able to.
More countries than not have capital punishment. How could you possibly think Canadians are exempt from the law of the land in the majority of countries?

 

[Spade]

It is the obligation of the Canadian Government to advocate equally for all its citizens based on domestic principles of justice. It is irrelevant whether the citizens are virtuous or scumbags. Equality is a cornerstone of democracy.

Equally true is that that US is within its rights to ignore our request.

 

[RanchHand]

It is the obligation of the Canadian Government to advocate equally for all its citizens based on domestic principles of justice. It is irrelevant whether the citizens are virtuous or scumbags. Equality is a cornerstone of democracy.

Equally true is that that US is within its rights to ignore our request.

This is referred to as 'the pissing into the wind' defense.