US Judge Orders Russia to Preserve Jewish Texts

Tyr

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I'm pretty sure they'll put everything on hold (Georgia, Oil and Gas shipments to Europe, etc..) and get right on this 8O


A federal judge ordered Russia on Thursday to preserve sacred religious documents that members of a Hasidic Jewish movement fear could be headed to the black market.
U.S. District Judge Royce Lamberth issued a restraining order telling Russia to protect the documents and return any that may already have been removed from the Russian State Military Archives.
The order comes in a lawsuit filed by members of Chabad-Lubavitch, which follows the teachings of Eastern European rabbis and emphasizes the study of the Torah. The group is suing Russia in U.S. court to recover thousands of manuscripts, prayers, lectures and philosophical discourses by leading rabbis dating back to the 18th century.
An attorney for the movement, Nathan Lewin, told the judge Thursday that during a visit to Israel last month he learned that pages from the handwritten archive were shown to an expert in Jerusalem. The expert, a former university librarian, had been asked to confirm the documents' authenticity and was led to believe that they were going to be offered for sale.
The entire collection, which Chabad says totals 12,000 books and 50,000 rare documents, is being held in the Russian State Military Archives. Lewin said Chabad fears the documents are not being properly cared for and could end up missing.
 

Praxius

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I'm pretty sure they'll put everything on hold (Georgia, Oil and Gas shipments to Europe, etc..) and get right on this 8O


A federal judge ordered Russia on Thursday to preserve sacred religious documents that members of a Hasidic Jewish movement fear could be headed to the black market.
U.S. District Judge Royce Lamberth issued a restraining order telling Russia to protect the documents and return any that may already have been removed from the Russian State Military Archives.
The order comes in a lawsuit filed by members of Chabad-Lubavitch, which follows the teachings of Eastern European rabbis and emphasizes the study of the Torah. The group is suing Russia in U.S. court to recover thousands of manuscripts, prayers, lectures and philosophical discourses by leading rabbis dating back to the 18th century.
An attorney for the movement, Nathan Lewin, told the judge Thursday that during a visit to Israel last month he learned that pages from the handwritten archive were shown to an expert in Jerusalem. The expert, a former university librarian, had been asked to confirm the documents' authenticity and was led to believe that they were going to be offered for sale.
The entire collection, which Chabad says totals 12,000 books and 50,000 rare documents, is being held in the Russian State Military Archives. Lewin said Chabad fears the documents are not being properly cared for and could end up missing.

Hmmmm... and Russia's response:

Make Me.

Didn't anybody ever hear of that old law where if something is in your possession for two years and a day, it's legally yours and you can do whatever you want with it?

Well..... I think this group is a bit out of place to be sueing for something that has been in Russia's possession for.... how long now?

And besides.... The US doesn't hold authority over what happens in Russia or any other soverign country.... therefore their court systems and laws don't apply to Russia, so why would they even care? The US doesn't even give a crap about other nation's laws, let alone globally accepted human rights..... they're sure in a position to dictate right and wrong :lol:

Hell, they could have destroyed all those documents years ago if they wanted to..... what would they be bickering about then? Nothing.... cuz there'd be nothing.

They should be glad they still exist.

Don't want them to be sold on the black market?

Throw in a bid.
 

Cannuck

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Not sure about international law but they did initially hire a law firm to argue on their behalf so there is probably more to this than it would appear. The Nazis and the Russian government violated international law.
 

Cannuck

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Lamberth agreed to take the case in U.S. court because he said both the Nazi seizure and the Russian government's appropriation of the archives violated international law.
 

Praxius

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They are not comics and, according to international law, they do not belong to the Russians.

Hey, if they wanted to keep those things, they would have put them some place safe, like under the bed with the rest of the magazines.

Honestly, it's not like they're being destroyed... they're probably not even being sold on the "Black Market" ~ Probably would get more out of an auction to private investors...... or I guess you could call it a black market.... it's all the same really. Rich, isolated people purchasing what they normally purchase..... useless things that are worth something.

Sure they're worth something to the jewish religion and all that..... but frig, how much did it cost them to hang onto them for this long? Perhaps someone should pay them for their hard efforts of keeping them in one piece, rather then just ripping it from them like cheap thugs and doing nothing for it.

I mean jeez.... don't they have all of Jerusalem? There's crap loads of history all over the place there..... I suppose the Christians have Rome, but I don't get the point of their legal fight is where I'm getting at.

Who are they to claim property rights over these documents? It's a part of their religion, people in their religion wrote much of it..... but did any of them say they wanted them given to the community in the first place? Who are they to claim ownership over it just because they follow the same religion?

I'm just being devil's advocate here, I honestly don't care either way :lol:
 

Cannuck

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Hey, if they wanted to keep those things, they would have put them some place safe, like under the bed with the rest of the magazines.

It's unfortunate that some people can't understand the concept of historical significance. They are historical artifacts and there are some of us that believe historical artifacts should be protected from cretins that don't understand their significance....and it doesn't really matter whether the artifacts are religious or geological in nature.

Honestly, it's not like they're being destroyed... they're probably not even being sold on the "Black Market" ~ Probably would get more out of an auction to private investors...... or I guess you could call it a black market.... it's all the same really. Rich, isolated people purchasing what they normally purchase..... useless things that are worth something.

Do you believe that everything of historic significant should be sold to the highest bidder? Sounds like something Bush would have promoted.

Sure they're worth something to the jewish religion and all that..... but frig, how much did it cost them to hang onto them for this long? Perhaps someone should pay them for their hard efforts of keeping them in one piece, rather then just ripping it from them like cheap thugs and doing nothing for it.

How much has it cost the thieves to "hang onto" Cezanne's "Boy in the Red Vest". Assuming it is still in one piece, someone should pay them for their hard efforts of keeping them in one piece, rather then just ripping it from them like cheap thugs and doing nothing for it. :roll:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cézanne
I mean jeez.... don't they have all of Jerusalem? There's crap loads of history all over the place there..... I suppose the Christians have Rome, but I don't get the point of their legal fight is where I'm getting at.

Ah! I see...it's just another anti-Jew thing with you....never mind.
 

Praxius

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It's unfortunate that some people can't understand the concept of historical significance. They are historical artifacts and there are some of us that believe historical artifacts should be protected from cretins that don't understand their significance....and it doesn't really matter whether the artifacts are religious or geological in nature.

The question that remains is who has the right to claim ownership over that stuff..... I could say that your parent's old TV is of historical significance to me, so therefore, I should be able to take it?

Why? Because I like TV and I say it has historical significance?

Then why should they be allowed to run off to the US to try and get big daddy to come and take them just because they follow the same religion?

Do you believe that everything of historic significant should be sold to the highest bidder? Sounds like something Bush would have promoted.

NASA's selling off their shuttles to the highest bidder.

History is just that.... history. Do you realize that if everybody clinged and hung onto every single thing they used to own or like, this planet would be a junk heap, piled with loads of useless crap..... more then it already is.

Take here in Halifax for example. We have here a historical society which puts these fancy plaques I helped design on various old buildings from around the HRM. They basically state the buildings have historical significance and you are limited by a lot of things when it comes to renting/buying them out or modifying them.

It seems like a good thing, but the big issue here now is about how the hell can the HRM move forward, develop and be ready to take on new companies and jobs, when we're stuck not being able to remove the old run down buildings that cost way too much to upkeep?

The HRM is losing out on business, more then it should..... because some people want to hang onto old run down buildings.

The future is tomorrow, not yesterday.

Why didn't this group do anything to get the documents and such before? Russia had all of this stuff for how long now? I don't remember anybody trying to get them before...... Oh, but now that Russia might get some profit from the things they have been taken care of, they have to step in and play the significance card?

Where was their significance before?

Ah! I see...it's just another anti-Jew thing with you....never mind.

You can take your anti-jew comments and shove them square up your ass.

If you didn't clue in from the last set of comments I made you quoted, it could have been christians or muslims, or any other religion, and I'd be saying very much the same thing.

In fact, I have said the same things in the past when it comes to these possession lawsuits. There has been a couple of cases of people who gave something to someone years back, they took care of it the whole time, then when they wanted it back, they'd fight in the legal system to get something that isn't theirs anymore.

Case in point.... if I had a cowboy hat I had since I was 2 years old and I gave it to you..... do you think 20 years down the road I can simply goto the courts to get it back from you if you didn't want to give it back in the first place?

It might have significance to me and not to you, but do I have any right taking it back from you?

The answer is no. Just as No is the answer in this situation.

Label me with that anti-jew crap again and see how far it gets you, ignorant.
 

darkbeaver

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You can take your anti-jew comments and shove them square up your ass.
Label me with that anti-jew crap again and see how far it gets you, ignorant.

Get used to it, any criticism of Jews or Israel is met with the armour of the victim, a condition described as PTSD (pre traumatic stress disorder). This is how it is possible to appreciate ultra aggressive genocide as lawfull defence of hearth home and artifacts.
 
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Tyr

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Not sure about international law but they did initially hire a law firm to argue on their behalf so there is probably more to this than it would appear. The Nazis and the Russian government violated international law.

Ones a political party and ones a race. What's the correlation? For that matter what the thread have to do with the Nazi's?
 

Cannuck

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The question that remains is who has the right to claim ownership over that stuff

The owner....Duh!

..... I could say that your parent's old TV is of historical significance to me, so therefore, I should be able to take it?

Since it is my parents old TV, you would be charge with theft and some judge would probably tell you to return it...sound familiar? As for the historical significance, I would say that if it was 300 years old, it would probably have some historical significance.

Then why should they be allowed to run off to the US to try and get big daddy to come and take them just because they follow the same religion?

OK...put the doobie down and back away from the computer.

Do you realize that if everybody clinged and hung onto every single thing they used to own or like, this planet would be a junk heap, piled with loads of useless crap

Yes but I also believe that the rightful owner should be the one to decide.

The future is tomorrow, not yesterday

...and history is yesterday not next Sunday...I thought I told you to put the doobie down.

Why didn't this group do anything to get the documents and such before?

I have no idea. Why did aboriginals wait so long before fighting their land claims? Why do any crime victims delay before searching out help.

There has been a couple of cases of people who gave something to someone years back
...and that isn't what it appears happened here so the point of your analogy is what?
 

Tyr

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Cannucklehead

It's unfortunate that some people can't understand the concept of historical significance. They are historical artifacts and there are some of us that believe historical artifacts should be protected from cretins that don't understand their significance....and it doesn't really matter whether the artifacts are religious or geological in nature.

Geological???? Are you always this confused? We are talking about manuscripts, not rocks
 

Said1

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I doubt they will comply, but, If these items were seized, they should hand them over. Or at least sell them back. I would think the Russians would expect the same if the situation was reversed.