Deserter granted last-minute stay of deportation

Praxius

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http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNe...inzman_deportation_080922/20080922?hub=Canada

TORONTO -- A high-profile American deserter has won a last-minute stay of deportation.

A Federal Court judge says Jeremy Hinzman can stay in Canada for now.

Hinzman was due to get the boot to the U.S. Tuesday morning, where he would face prosecution for fleeing to Canada rather than deploying to Iraq.

Ottawa has refused his family's application to remain in Canada on humanitarian and compassionate grounds.

The 29-year-old Hinzman, his wife and two young children asked for the stay while the courts decide if they will review that decision.

His lawyer argued today that deserters who have been publicly critical of the U.S.-led invasion of Iraq have received harsher punishment.

Well there's a twist to a situation most of us have been following in the last few months.

If it is true that he could receive harsher punishment, then it should be justified not to send him back.
 

EagleSmack

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I say keep him. But you know...eventually he will return and will have to face the music. He is only delaying the inevitable and putting his wife through a lot of stress. Even as we speak the curtain is coming down on these deserters and they are not as in vogue as they once had been. Anti-War protests are very hard to find and an audience for these folks is dwindling.

I think there is a lot of truth in what his lawyer says as by speaking out he violates the oath he took...

"I will not make statements written and oral that may be harmful to my country and it's allies."

So by grandstanding he dug himself a little deeper.

He will return just like the rest of them have been as of late. Then he will get it!
 

Avro

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Feb 12, 2007
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There aren't many anti war protests anymore because most Americans (the smart ones) realize it was a complete disaster and mistake which is why many politico's are talking about getting the hell out of there.

We shouldn't take American deserters, while I sympathize with their position, you don't sign up for military services without knowing you could see combat even if you don't like the reasons for it. He should go back and face his punishment like a brave soldier and stop hiding like a coward.
 

Unforgiven

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May 28, 2007
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If he wants to stay in Canada then he should ship out to Afghanistan for a tour or two and show his worth to the Canadian people!
 

s_lone

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Canada opposed the war in Irak yet doesn't have the courage to stand up to its position.

Canada is just being a hypocrite.
 

Colpy

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There aren't many anti war protests anymore because most Americans (the smart ones) realize it was a complete disaster and mistake which is why many politico's are talking about getting the hell out of there.

We shouldn't take American deserters, while I sympathize with their position, you don't sign up for military services without knowing you could see combat even if you don't like the reasons for it. He should go back and face his punishment like a brave soldier and stop hiding like a coward.

If he wants to stay in Canada then he should ship out to Afghanistan for a tour or two and show his worth to the Canadian people!

Yep and yep.

Exactly.
 

Colpy

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Canada opposed the war in Irak yet doesn't have the courage to stand up to its position.

Canada is just being a hypocrite.

Canada did not sent a military battle group to Iraq, but dozens of Canadian soldiers have served there on exchange programs. Our current Chief of defense Staff served as a second-in-command of a US battle group.

The Americans are our closest allies.

What hypocracy?
 

s_lone

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Canada did not sent a military battle group to Iraq, but dozens of Canadian soldiers have served there on exchange programs. Our current Chief of defense Staff served as a second-in-command of a US battle group.

The Americans are our closest allies.

What hypocracy?

US Americans are our friends I agree. But you don't necessarily have to approve of what a friend is doing. In fact, Canada never approved of the Irak war. It opposed it.

I understand many Canadians would have wanted Canada to join the US in the Irak invasion. And if you do believe the Irak war is legitimate, than I respect your opinion that the soldier should be deported.

But I have a hard time understanding how one could at once point fingers at the US for invading Irak and point fingers at a soldier for not wanting to go. That to me is hypocrisy.

The hypocrisy of Canada as a country is in lacking the courage to stand up to its position on the Irak war by deporting a soldier who won't fight in it.
 
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EagleSmack

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But I have a hard time understanding how one could at once point fingers at the US for invading Irak and point fingers at a soldier for not wanting to go. That to me is hypocrisy.

The hypocrisy of Canada as a country is in lacking the courage to stand up to its position on the Irak war by deporting a soldier who won't fight in it.

Well it is a little more complicated than that. He is a fugitive from justice and he is a deserter from the US Military. We want him back. Whether you agree with the war or not should have no bearing on whether you keep him. He signed up and he deserted.

So far Canada has stood by these guys and have allowed them to stay. There is only one guy so far that they sent back and that is because not only was he a deserter but he was arrested twice in Canada.
 

Zzarchov

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Saying the American Government is wrong is not being Harmful to the country Eaglesmack. One could argue thats his patrotic duty.

Part of every western democracatic nation's soldiers duty is to protect his country from all threats foreign and domestic.

It is not to protect his government from all threats foreign and domestic. There is a very big difference, its THE difference between a western democracy and a third world tinpot dictatorship.

The country != The government


That being said I don't think he's got moral qualms so much as Chicken****itis. He can always just refuse to fight as many people have in wars over the years. Its not pleasant but the oath wasn't "stand up for America as convenient"

That being said, its entirely possible he'll never leave Canada. Lots of US deserters and draft dodgers stay and lead perfectly fine lives up in Canada.
 

Unforgiven

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Canada did not sent a military battle group to Iraq, but dozens of Canadian soldiers have served there on exchange programs. Our current Chief of defense Staff served as a second-in-command of a US battle group.

Not to mention how many Canadian ex-military is working for Blackwater.

The Americans are our closest allies.

What hypocracy?

You mean like geographically???
 

EagleSmack

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Saying the American Government is wrong is not being Harmful to the country Eaglesmack. One could argue thats his patrotic duty.

Part of every western democracatic nation's soldiers duty is to protect his country from all threats foreign and domestic.

It is not to protect his government from all threats foreign and domestic. There is a very big difference, its THE difference between a western democracy and a third world tinpot dictatorship.

The country != The government


That being said I don't think he's got moral qualms so much as Chicken****itis. He can always just refuse to fight as many people have in wars over the years. Its not pleasant but the oath wasn't "stand up for America as convenient"

That being said, its entirely possible he'll never leave Canada. Lots of US deserters and draft dodgers stay and lead perfectly fine lives up in Canada.

I TRULY understand what you are saying. I understand where that argument comes from when someone says... even an American...

"This war is wrong."

However, when you sign up for the military you CANNOT say these things. You cannot get in front of a mic, talk to a reporter and say things like that. You are violating your oath. An oath he took freely knowing the consequenses. A civillian can bang a drum out in front of the White House 24/7 and scream at the top of his lungs that the war is wrong. A member of the military cannot.

Prax had another posting about another guy whom Canada did deport. So I went and looked up on these deserters and a lot have been coming back. There is a resistors wbpage that lists all of the guys and one gal in Canada. Many of the updates have them back in the states.
 

Colpy

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Not to mention how many Canadian ex-military is working for Blackwater.



You mean like geographically???

Those working for Blackwater do not represent the Canadian people, so that is irrelevent.

I mean closest allies geographically, militarily, economically, culturally, politically..........we are the same people, divided only by a little history.

from Wikipedia:
Hinzman enlisted voluntarily in the Army, volunteered for infantry duty, and further volunteered for airborne training, a series of delibrate and conscious decisions on Hinzman's part which would practically guarantee combat duty. These circumstances cause critics to be skeptical as to the sincerity of Hinzman's recent claims to being a conscientious objector. Such critics have suggested that, if Hinzman were sincere in his beliefs, he would return to the United States voluntarily and accept whatever consequences his actions and beliefs might bring about.

when you volunteer,you surrender your freedom, you don't get to pick your fights. Full stop. The guy is a criminal, as desertion is a crime. Deport him.

if he had any balls, he's have served his sentence, taken his dishonourable discharge, and been out on the street a free man in the USA years ago........he is a scoundrel.
 

Zzarchov

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Eagelsmack:

You would have to prove that saying the war is wrong is harming his country. Thats the oath he took, not to harm the country.

He didn't take an oath not to harm the current government administration in the election, he didn't take an oath to remain quiet about dangers to his country.

That being said, he didn't have in his oath "say these things from a safe distance".


If he has something to say about the state of America in the interests of keeping it from further harm, that is his duty and part of his oath. And then he can say it in America and not run away to hide and cry in Canada.
 

EagleSmack

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ROBIN LONG

This is the deserter that was on our last thread (to my knowledge) about this topic. At the time of the thread he had just been deported and was awaiting court martial. This thread prompted me to go check and see how Robin was doing.

Boy oh boy!

They let him have it. FIFTEEN months in the brig, reduction to Private and a Dishonorable Discharge. I figured he would have just got a Bad Conduct Discharge. He is finished as a US Citizen. I think you will be seeing him back up in Canada as a Dishonorable carries such a price here in the US.
 

s_lone

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Well it is a little more complicated than that. He is a fugitive from justice and he is a deserter from the US Military. We want him back. Whether you agree with the war or not should have no bearing on whether you keep him. He signed up and he deserted.

Whether or not we agree with the war is the whole point, in my opinion.

We're having this debate because the legitimacy of the Irak is quite ambiguous. There are good reasons for believing the war is legitimate and good reasons not to.

We wouldn't be having this debate if the Irak war was absolutely and clearly illegitimate. If the US was clearly invading Irak in order to rule it forever than certainly you'd agree that Canada is right to let the deserter stay here. But the war in Irak isn't clear at all. Some agree with it, some don't.

The question is: Is the war in Irak ethical? If you think the answer is yes, then the guy should be deported. If you don't, then he shouldn't.

So should he?

That belongs to Canada to decide.


So far Canada has stood by these guys and have allowed them to stay. There is only one guy so far that they sent back and that is because not only was he a deserter but he was arrested twice in Canada.

And I hope Canada has a coherent behavior and let the deserters stay.
 
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darkbeaver

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It takes a brave man to endure the scorn of his peers, family and countrymen. When you conscientiously object and refuse to commit what you consider a crime and you publicly awknowledege those decisions you have demonstrated reason and leadership and courage that all pretenders fear and hate. Ethics before adulation, war will never end untill everyman deserts.
 
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EagleSmack

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Eagelsmack:

You would have to prove that saying the war is wrong is harming his country. Thats the oath he took, not to harm the country.

He didn't take an oath not to harm the current government administration in the election, he didn't take an oath to remain quiet about dangers to his country.

That being said, he didn't have in his oath "say these things from a safe distance".


If he has something to say about the state of America in the interests of keeping it from further harm, that is his duty and part of his oath. And then he can say it in America and not run away to hide and cry in Canada.

I do not think the military prosecutor would have a tough time proving that to a military jury. He faces people who understand what that oath means whereas civillians do not.

I understand what you are trying to say. The fact of the matter is the guy deserted and started grandstanding about how he feels about the war. The military will not, ever, tolerate that behavoir from anyone serving in uniform. If they do..they get punished.

Now once a member of the military fullfills his obligations and is discharged in anyway he can get on a soap box in Times Square and say all he wants about the war.
 

s_lone

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I do not think the military prosecutor would have a tough time proving that to a military jury. He faces people who understand what that oath means whereas civillians do not.

I understand what you are trying to say. The fact of the matter is the guy deserted and started grandstanding about how he feels about the war. The military will not, ever, tolerate that behavoir from anyone serving in uniform. If they do..they get punished.

Now once a member of the military fullfills his obligations and is discharged in anyway he can get on a soap box in Times Square and say all he wants about the war.

So I guess everyone is free in the USA... except soldiers.