Quote: Originally Posted by Zzarchov
I don't think you understand what Im saying, this isn't 51% of people in S.O voted for independance, its a majority of OSSETIANS in S.O voted for independance, while the Georgians and another block of Ossetians are opposed to the move, who combined made a majority.
Georgians shouldn't have any say in the matter to begin with, it's not they who are wanting to seperate.... that makes about as much sense as allowing people in BC to vote whether or not Quebec should be allowed to seperate or not.... it doesn't concern them in the slightest.... if anything, people in the Maritimes might have a slight reason to be allowed input, due to the potiential of being seperated from the rest of the country, but even then I still disagree with us being allowed input in the vote, as it isn't our land, our people, or our independence that is in question.
So in other words, the majority of South Ossetians voted for independence.... Georgia's vote is invalid and irrelevent. By your own words, you acknowlege that the majority of South O. wanted to be independant, so why are you still fighting something you already acknowleged?
In the last vote by Quebec to stay or leave, did you by chance notice that it was only people living in Quebec who were allowed to vote? So how the hell do you justify Georgia's farce vote of countering SO's vote, where as if the Rest of Canada voted back in '95, the majority vote would have been for Quebec to stay, and would have not only been a complete insult to the whole debate, but would have already had a predictable win.
Oh and now that I refreshed my memory, Quebec voted officially: 50.58% to stay in Canada and 49.42% to leave the Country. Source:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1995_Quebec_referendum (external - login to view)
Therefore, the vote was carried out as I would have hoped it would have.... the majority, although slight, voted to stay.
Actually thats one of the things that started this, Different villages in S.O opted to return to government control, the S.O government viewed itself as indivisible and reasserted control, back and forth, escalating to this.
Once again.... Source?
The majority of Ethnic Ossetians, the minority of South Ossetian residents, though with the expulsion of Ethnic Georgians by the Russians recently, that may change.
What? That makes no sense... if anything, it would grow stronger. They want re-unification of North and South.... Russia can make this happen in one or more ways...... how would this change any if the above in which you claim is true?
Muslims are allowed to immigrate to Israel, to vote, serve in the army and make up part of the government.
With a large amount of restrictions and a lot less rights then your typical jewish person. And since they are still a minority, they can and will be easily over-ruled. That still doesn't change what I previously said. Unless you were a Muslim who previously lived in the areas in which Israel took over by force (just like Georgia), or you marry one who already lives there or you're a Jew, you're not allowed to live there or obtain citizenship, unless you perhaps have a working visa.
In fact, it goes even further then that:
UN Committee Urges Israel to Revoke the Citizenship Law, Dismantle the Wall…
www.palsolidarity.org/main/20...-legal-center/ (external - login to view)
"...... the Committee emphasized 25 areas of concern and recommendations regarding Israel’s compliance with the Convention concerning the rights of Palestinian Arab citizens of Israel and Palestinians living in the Occupied Palestinian Territory (OPT). Representatives of Adalah, Attorney Sawsan Zaher and Rina Rosenberg, Esq., and other Palestinian, Israeli and international human rights organizations participated in the UN sessions held on 22-23 February 2007 in Geneva.
The Concluding Observations reflected numerous issues highlighted by Adalah in its reports to the Committee noting Israel’s violations of the ICERD.
A high-level delegation of 13 state representatives, headed by Israeli Ambassador to the UN, Yitzhak Levanon, also participated in the Committee’s sessions. Nevertheless, many of the questions sent in advance to Israel remained unanswered, as the Committee noted at the outset.
The main concerns and recommendations adopted by the Committee, which is composed of eighteen independent experts including law professors, lawyers and former judges, included:
1) The right to equality and a prohibition on racial discrimination should be explicitly included in the Basic Law: Human Dignity and Liberty.
2) Israel should ensure that the definition of the state as a Jewish state does not result in any systemic distinction, exclusion, restriction or preference based on race, colour, descent, or national or ethnic origin in the enjoyment of human rights.
3) Israel should ensure “equality in the right to return to one’s country and in the possession of property”.
4) Israel should ensure that the World Zionist Organization, the Jewish Agency and the Jewish National Fund, which manage land, housing and services exclusively for the Jewish population, are “bound by the principle of non-discrimination in the exercise of their functions.”
5) Israel should revoke the Citizenship and Entry into Israel Law (Temporary Order) – 2003, and “ensure that restrictions on family reunification are strictly necessary and limited in scope, and are not applied on the basis of nationality, residency or membership of a particular community.”
6) Israel’s policy of affording highly advantageous benefits, particularly for housing and education, to those who perform military service is incompatible with the Convention, bearing in mind that most Arab citizens do not perform national service.
7) Israel should assess the significance and impact of Israel Land Administration’s “social suitability” admission criterion to small communities, as it may allow in practice for the exclusion of Arab citizens from some State-controlled land. The Committee recommended that Israel take all measures to ensure that State land is allocated without discrimination, direct or indirect, based on race, colour, descent, or national or ethnic origin.
8 )Israel should assess the extent to which discriminatory attitudes by employers against Arabs, scarcity of jobs near Arab communities, and lack of daycare centers in Arab villages are a cause of high unemployment rates, particularly for Arab women.
9) Israel should enquire into possible alternatives to the relocation of inhabitants of unrecognized Bedouin villages in the Negev/Naqab to planned towns, in particular through the recognition of these villages and the recognition of the rights of the Bedouin to own, develop, control and use their communal lands, territories and resources traditionally owned or otherwise inhabited or used by them.
10) Israel should address concerns that the psychometric examinations used to test aptitudes, ability and personality indirectly discriminates against Arab citizens in accessing higher education.
11) Israel should ensure that laws and programmes be equally devoted to the promotion of cultural institutions and the protection of holy sites of both Jewish and other religious communities.
12) Israel should increase its efforts to prevent racially motivated offences and hate speech, and ensure that relevant criminal law provisions are effectively implemented by prosecuting politicians, government officials and other public figures for hate speech against the Arab minority.
13) “A high number of complaints filed by Arab citizens against law enforcement officers are not properly and effectively investigated and that the Ministry of Justice’s Police Investigations Unit (Mahash) lacks independence.” The Committee regretted that Israel provided no comments in this regard as requested or information as to whether the persons responsible for the October 2000 killings have been prosecuted and sentenced.
14) Israel’s position that the ICERD does not apply in the OPT “cannot be sustained under the letter and spirit of the Convention, or under international law as also affirmed by the International Court of Justice.” Moreover “the Israeli settlements are illegal under international law.”
15) Israel should cease the construction of the Wall in the OPT, including in and around East Jerusalem, dismantle the structure, and make reparation for all damage. Israel should also “give full effect” to the 2004 Advisory Opinion of the International Court of Justice.
16) Severe restrictions on the freedom of movement in the OPT targeting a particular national or ethnic group, especially through the wall, checkpoints, restricted roads and permit system, have created hardship and have had a highly detrimental impact on the enjoyment of human rights by Palestinians, in particular their rights to freedom of movement, family life, work, education and health.
17) Different laws and practices apply to Palestinians and to Israelis in the OPT, in particular the unequal distribution of water resources to the detriment of Palestinians, the disproportionate targeting of Palestinians in house demolitions, and different criminal laws leading to prolonged detention and harsher punishments for Palestinians for the same offences.
18 ) While stressing that the Al-Aqsa Mosque is an important cultural and religious site for people living in the OPT, the Committee urged Israel to ensure that the excavations in no way endanger the Mosque and impede access to it.
19) Israel should increase its efforts to protect Palestinians against violence perpetuated by Jewish settlers, particularly in Hebron, and ensure that such incidents are investigated in a prompt, transparent and independent manner, are prosecuted and sentenced, and that avenues for redress are offered to the victims.
The Committee also recommended that Israel make its reports and the Committee’s concluding observations readily available to the public in both Hebrew and Arabic."
There is a reason there were 2 elections in S.O, one backing independance and one backing merging with Georgia, each receiving a majority (like 95%+) of the vote, people were only allowed (in both cases) to vote if they already agreed.
Then you should be opposed to S.O Independance, what you are advocating is that those nude firecracker lovers be allowed to dictate their views to the majority because they have the backing of a world superpower.
No, as explained above, the majority vote rules. If our government put a vote to the rest of the populus to allow people to run around naked with firecrackers up their arses, and the majority voted that they didn't want to allow that, then the majority rules, and they naked **** crackers have to deal with it..... this is in question to allowing laws to permit everybody to run around naked and light firecrackers up their arses.... this action would also pose potiential risks to not only the individual, but those around the individual.... if the majority don't want this to happen, then the majority should have their say in preventing it from happening.
Whereas South O. wishes to leave from Georgia.... this decision will not affect other Georgians in the rest of the country, as it is not their provinces in question, therefore they have no say..... or shouldn't.
This would directly affect people living in South Os. So everyone in South Os should have the right to decide.... if the majority vote for independence, then that's how it goes. Those who want to be a part of Georgia can then move into Georgian borders.... just as Quebecers who wish to live in Canada can move to Canada.
For the crazy **** Crackers, if they don't like it, they can move to a country which allows them to blow their arses up in a colourful manner.
Outright Annexing (at this point) would means they would face sanctions and be unable to sell their oil and gas to Europe, which would cripple them more than Europe (they need this time to modernize their military)
Give it 5-10 years and the defunct state of S.O (with its 50,000 people) will join the Russian federations.
Then so be it.... if they would rather be a part of Russia then a part of Georgia, then who are we to tell them they can't?
It'd be no different if say, Alaska wanted to be a part of Canada, rather then the US. Allow them to vote on it, and even if the US still won't reconize their vote, I say Canada should bring them into our country with open arms.
The only other alternative is military action.... this is the most peaceful process for land change..... and it's democratic to those it directly involves. However the US and Georgia think they should be allowed to oppress what their provinces/states think for the betterhood of the nation..... that's not very unified at all.... that's flat out oppression.
Yes it did. And its own set of Tragedies (Ask the mohawk), but Im all for independance movements. The thing is, Russia isn't, so whats it doing backing S.O?
Bullsh*t between bricks Batman..... you can't tell me what Russia believes or doesn't.... esspecially without any sources (Still waiting, yet again.)
They just reconized their independence, as stated in the above article I just posted..... which once again, completely contradicts everything you're saying.
According to Russia, and the UN, they weren't attempting to "take the land as their own", they were attempting to assert law and order in a land where the majority of people didn't want these armed gunmen running around claiming they were the law and they could make the rules.
Once again.... provide sources, or else I'll label this as more bullsh*t, because that is not what Russia was saying.
Then again, I suppose it depends on the propaganda you wish to follow.
Because a bunch of people in S.O were sick and tired of living ina "revolutionary" hellhole by a bunch of armed gunman and wanted to rejoin Georgia, leading to the escalation to this crisis.
Still waiting..... Your basic and limited generalizations sure are not helping your side of the argument.
As for not being in the news, it was there, you had to dig for it though. But there is alot of stuff on the news, everything in the world can't be on the frontpage.
I am already digging..... I have yet to see you do the same. All I see are your basic and generalized assumptions.
Russia still denies the right of Kosovo to be independant, a place that suffered actual genocide at the hands of its government, but S.O is truly independant...right...
Once again, read the above article in relation to Kosovo and how that played out in comparison.
Nothing about Russia needing a port for its navy what with Ukraine telling them they are being kicked out.
Poor excuse and example, as you're trying to twist this into some military action the Russians started.... news flash.... Georgia pulled this stunt, Russia now is watching their ports for what the US decides to give them in "Aid" so that Georgia doesn't start this crap all over again.
Georgia is the one causing the instability in the area, not Russia.... Since the Russians got involved, have you noticed anymore reports of military attacks in the area? Seem to be doing a good job in keeping stability.
And in my opinion, if Georgia pulls this damn stunt again, then Russia should flatten the hell out of them, take them over and remove this instability once and for all.