Senators approve anti-spanking bill

Praxius

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Dec 18, 2007
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http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2008/06/19/spanking-bill.html

A proposed law that could see parents charged for spanking their children is heading to the House of Commons after clearing a major hurdle in the Senate.

The bill, supported by the Liberal majority, quietly passed third reading in the Senate on Tuesday night despite Conservative objections to the legislation. The vote count was not recorded.

Bill S-209, which needs House approval to be made into law, proposes to eliminate Section 43 of Canada's Criminal Code, which allows parents, teachers and caregivers to use reasonable force to discipline a child and correct their behaviour.

Liberal Senator Céline Hervieux-Payette first introduced the bill in December 2004, shortly after the Supreme Court denied a challenge to Section 43 and upheld the right of adults to physically discipline children between the ages of two and 12.
Dion's support expected

Hervieux-Payette said she believes she will get the support of Liberal Leader Stéphane Dion in the House, although the ruling Conservatives have voiced concern over the bill. Hervieux-Payette said if the House does not pass her legislation, she will simply keep reintroducing it.

"It is to send a signal, so that people who use violence in a repeated way will no longer feel protected," she said, according to Canwest News Service. "It is not to arrest everyone who gives their child a tap on the arm."

The Senate mulled over the bill for more than three years, as the Canadian Bar Association and the Canadian Council of Criminal Defence Lawyers spoke out against it. In response to concerns, the bill was amended to allow parents and caregivers to use force in very specific situations — such as when a caregiver wants to immediately stop a child who is about to do something dangerous that could cause serious harm.

Routine discipline and using spanking as premeditated punishment wouldn't be allowed.

"No corporal punishment would be allowed, either by an educator, the mother, the father or someone acting for them," Hervieux-Payette said.

Great, and while those same kids go around beating everybody else up, swamming old ladies like around where I live, punching their own parents, threatening people and totally out of control.... the people who are responsible for those brats and are supposed to keep them in check no longer have one shred of ability to do so.

I guess all that's left is Military School...... oh wait, that'll soon be considdered harsh as well. :roll:
 

Colpy

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http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2008/06/19/spanking-bill.html



Great, and while those same kids go around beating everybody else up, swamming old ladies like around where I live, punching their own parents, threatening people and totally out of control.... the people who are responsible for those brats and are supposed to keep them in check no longer have one shred of ability to do so.

I guess all that's left is Military School...... oh wait, that'll soon be considdered harsh as well. :roll:

Well said.

None of the damned gov't's business, as long as one causes no lasting harm........
 

Risus

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May 24, 2006
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This is the whole problem with society today. Kids no longer have any respect, even for their parents. A good thrashing (within reason) will teach them that.
 

Praxius

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Hey I grew up getting good old fashion ass cracks, open hand punches and the classic belt, and once in a while, slammed up against a wall...... but hell, I'll admit it.... I friggin deserved every bit of it.... I was an asshole, what can I say?

I stressed my dad out, and my bother and sister had a good part in it too. Taking his collection of wooden model WWII fighter planes and smashing the hell out of them and punching holes in them with my fingers to make them look like they were in a battle (Must have taken some considderable hours to make them and paint them, and in a few seconds, all destroyed.)

I imagine that'd make any 1980's father a tad PO'd.
 

talloola

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Nov 14, 2006
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Hitting children teaches them 'how' to hit, and how hitting puts one in a position of
power, physically, (comes in handy later when they decide to 'bully' other kids).
One can physically prevent a child from continuing bad behavior by 'just' holding them firm to
prevent them from their action, and the rest should come from the 'brain', hitting takes the place
of good thinking and makes a parent look like an 'ass'.

There are so many other choices, and if you think that your children will get away on you
because you can't hit them, that is pitiful. Why would anyone want their children to fear
them. That is so old, the days when the mother said "just wait till your father comes home", and then there was organized corporal punishment, or a child having to live with a
parent who repeatedly 'blows' up and hits them, a terrible atmosphere for a child.

This law will protect those children, (hopefully), so that they can grow up without being
afraid, or constantly walking around with bruises, or broken bones, and it will be
interesting to see how those parents who constantly 'hit', will make an effort to change
their tactics and begin to use some intelligence instead of violence.
 
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lone wolf

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Nov 25, 2006
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Mamby-pamby psycho babble teaches a kid that everyone is going to talk in some super sweet voice any time he/she throws a temper tantrum - and put the kid into complete trauma when he/she encounters someone who learned a harsher way of life and won't take their crap.

There is a huge difference between a disciplinary smack on the bottom and a beating. It's too bad the black-or-white people couldn't understand reality is shaded in gray - and even more tragic that they're in command.
 

Risus

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May 24, 2006
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Hey I grew up getting good old fashion ass cracks, open hand punches and the classic belt, and once in a while, slammed up against a wall...... but hell, I'll admit it.... I friggin deserved every bit of it.... I was an asshole, what can I say?

I stressed my dad out, and my bother and sister had a good part in it too. Taking his collection of wooden model WWII fighter planes and smashing the hell out of them and punching holes in them with my fingers to make them look like they were in a battle (Must have taken some considderable hours to make them and paint them, and in a few seconds, all destroyed.)

I imagine that'd make any 1980's father a tad PO'd.

Me too. And none of us are any the worse for it!
 

Risus

Genius
May 24, 2006
5,373
25
38
Toronto
Hitting children teaches them 'how' to hit, and how hitting puts one in a position of
power, physically, (comes in handy later when they decide to 'bully' other kids).
One can physically prevent a child from continuing bad behavior by 'just' holding them firm to
prevent them from their action, and the rest should come from the 'brain', hitting takes the place
of good thinking and makes a parent look like an 'ass'.

There are so many other choices, and if you think that your children will get away on you
because you can't hit them, that is pitiful. Why would anyone want their children to fear
them. That is so old, the days when the mother said "just wait till your father comes home", and then there was organized corporal punishment, or a child having to live with a
parent who repeatedly 'blows' up and hits them, a terrible atmosphere for a child.

This law will protect those children, (hopefully), so that they can grow up without being
afraid, or constantly walking around with bruises, or broken bones, and it will be
interesting to see how those parents who constantly 'hit', will make an effort to change
their tactics and begin to use some intelligence instead of violence.

There is a big difference between dicipline and child abuse. Dicipline doesn't result in broken bones.

The fear is knowing if you do wrong you know you will pay for it... Big difference.
 

Praxius

Mass'Debater
Dec 18, 2007
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Hitting children teaches them 'how' to hit, and how hitting puts one in a position of power, physically, (comes in handy later when they decide to 'bully' other kids).

They're going to learn how to hit either way.... swing forward with arm and fist, make contact with target.... congrats, you just acomplished a "hit."

Based on my above explained childhood, I should have been one of the bigger thugs in school, yet I only got into two fights in which I walked away..... so that above general logic doesn't stick.

What are they going to do when they're faced with a bully and don't know how to defend themselves or to hit back? That kids going to be a punching bag until graduation or until he snaps and kills everybody in the school, that's what's going to happen.

One can physically prevent a child from continuing bad behavior by 'just' holding them firm to prevent them from their action, and the rest should come from the 'brain', hitting takes the place of good thinking and makes a parent look like an 'ass'.

Ha ha..... nobody individually could ever hold me down.... I was too strong and able to move out of positions very easily. Wrestling in class in grade 4 during recess I had three kids trying to tackle me form behind and I walked around with them on my back with very little problem. When I was in hospital for an operation I refused to take the medication to put me to sleep prior to the op and I spit the medicine back all over the nurses twice......

..... of course my mother, also being a nurse, decided to give them the go ahead to use some force on me, and so there they were, all 6 nurses trying to hold/pin me down as they gave me a sepository..... that learned me well.... after a 15 minute battle and me crying feeling violated.

If it takes 6 professional nurses, including my mother to hold me down at the age of 11, I seriously don't think one parent can hold down one child who is out of control in a manner to teach them the above lesson you speak of.

There are so many other choices, and if you think that your children will get away on you because you can't hit them, that is pitiful. Why would anyone want their children to fear them. That is so old, the days when the mother said "just wait till your father comes home", and then there was organized corporal punishment, or a child having to live with a parent who repeatedly 'blows' up and hits them, a terrible atmosphere for a child.

You're talking about it as something like a hobby or past time, where we'd just be bored of TV and decide to smack our kids around for entertainment or if they did something trivial. I'm talking about it being an option when all other avenues have been exausted and the kid remains a little sh*t.... and I was a little sh*t growing up, I don't forget the things I did back then.

If I didn't fully understand my parents' explinations of why I shouldn't do something that I was doing and I continued to do it regardless, or because I was in a hateful mood, I sure as hell knew "Don't do this, or you'll get this" Nobody likes getting a sting on the ass or a short moment of mild pain, but if it's all the kids' going to understand, they won't stay in the corner, they won't abide to the time out, they keep stomping and screaming, you send them to their room and then they destroy everything in it in a fit of rage..... then give them one good damn crack and give them a reason to cry..... then they'll tire out, shut up and goto sleep, or at least calm the hell down shortly afterwards to be talked to.

Why do you think police use force on certain subjects? Drunk guy is taking swings at the police? Club the hell out of him and throw him in the back of the squad car. Crazy guy has a gun and won't stop point it at everybody? Shoot him. If you make your children grow up not understanding that there will be others in society who will inflict greater pain on them, and that there won't be any major consequences for their actions besides not being able to stay up and watch repeats of Family Guy that they already seen, then don't be suprised when they hit the drugs, start having sex at a young age, getting into gangs and then shows up at your front door with the cops.

Granted not all kids are hellions and some are well behaved..... but I know I was a Pr*ck (And I still am, can ya tell :p) and through knowing my cousins, brother, sister, and the rest of my family, I know my kids are going to be very much the same.

This law will protect those children, (hopefully), so that they can grow up without being afraid, or constantly walking around with bruises, or broken bones, and it will be
interesting to see how those parents who constantly 'hit', will make an effort to change
their tactics and begin to use some intelligence instead of violence.

Holy crap you're exaggerating a lot, that's for sure. My parents never came at me with a friggin crowbar to break my legs, or punch me hard enough to cause bruses, or anything of the sort..... stop being so damn black and white about the subject. I was never in fear of my parents either.... I just knew how it was.... Don't do things you're not supposed to, and you won't get a whoppin'.

You know something? As another flip-side example of my youth, I know of two other kids in my neighborhood who has slack parenting who were very much like the above I described (Destroying their rooms when they were sent to them, ignoring their parent's orders of being grounded and just walking out, etc.) They were far far worse then I ever was, and I never disrespected my parents the way they did.

Last I heard, the two of them are in jail for petty thefts, break-ins, and breaking previous court orders.

I'm sorry, but if a good crack on the ass or the back of the head will straighten their asses out, compared to trying to not make their lives uncomfortible and them going out of control like the kids I grew up knowing, I'll take the corporal punishment anyday.

And I sure as hell don't hold anything against my parents for how they brought me up. They brought me up the best way they knew how and were capable of doing, and without the upbringing I had, I might not be where I am today.
 

karrie

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I was a spanking advocate until we realized that my son was a mirror. The more you spanked him, the more he lashed out around him. The more he lashed out, the more we spanked. If you were doling out physical aggression, then he did too.

When we learned to stop that, and turn it around to consequence (removing logical privileges, such as tv, computer, special toys, playdates), his behavior and his development turned around completely.

The notion that spanking is the only way kids learn discipline, and that without it all kids resort to lawlessness, is a cop out, and uneducated, lazy cop out.

There ARE kids out there that are worse off for the spankings they get. There ARE families out there who don't bother to take the time to discipline their children on an individual level. I think it's good to shake those foundations a bit.

I don't really support a law governing spanking, but, I do get annoyed to hear the arguments some seemingly bright people come up with for continuing these techniques.
 

lone wolf

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I did all the psych stuff - first. Spanking was always a last resort - or for immediate attention (like the time I nailed Brian and bike scooting out the driveway without looking)
 

talloola

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There is a big difference between dicipline and child abuse. Dicipline doesn't result in broken bones.

The fear is knowing if you do wrong you know you will pay for it... Big difference.

Many parent's discipline comes under the heading of child abuse, but they would not admit to that, and don't really believe it. There is a huge spectrum between a spank
on the bottom and a punch in the head. The point here is, to protect the children who
fall through the cracks, as their parents are abusing them, and are protected by the law.
Not any more, thank goodness.

My husband had 'those old fashioned' parents who whaled on them when they did (what they said, was wrong). My husband sneeked out to go and play hockey, as he was told
that hockey was stupid and he could not go. He loved to play so much he went anyway.
He got all of his own equipment and skates, second hand and given to him from other
players and friends, his parents didn't spend one cent.
When he got home he was physically whaled on, and he took it, then went to hockey again next time. He has a 'dent' in the back of his head from being hit by a chunk of
firewood that was hurled at him, as he was running away from his mom. He didn't
whine or complain about it in all these years, but I sure will.
Protect the children who suffer under these kind of parents, who don't have the intelligence to say what needs to be said, but they do have the 'rage' to hurl their
physical selves powerfully over their children, and it doesn't have to be physical
abuse to the extent that lands them in the emmergency room, to be wrong.
All you do when you hit children, is teach them to hit others, and to be afraid of you.

His parents were 'basically' good people, but lots of hollering, threatening, criticizm, and
when they were younger, physical punishment in the moment of anger.
 

lone wolf

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Discipline is also the difference between kids calling the old guy next door sir and ****. Parents today are too hung up on this "My kid wouldn't do that" ... then are so shocked or outraged when they find out the truth. Naturally it has to be somebody else's fault. My parents heard if I did wrong ... and the teller wasn't a liar
 

talloola

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 14, 2006
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Discipline is also the difference between kids calling the old guy next door sir and ****. Parents today are too hung up on this "My kid wouldn't do that" ... then are so shocked or outraged when they find out the truth. Naturally it has to be somebody else's fault. My parents heard if I did wrong ... and the teller wasn't a liar

Yeah, I've seen that many times.
 

karrie

OogedyBoogedy
Jan 6, 2007
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Discipline is also the difference between kids calling the old guy next door sir and ****. Parents today are too hung up on this "My kid wouldn't do that" ... then are so shocked or outraged when they find out the truth. Naturally it has to be somebody else's fault. My parents heard if I did wrong ... and the teller wasn't a liar

Spanking sure as hell doesn't instill that. I could spank my kids until I was blue in the face, but if I didn't instill respect for others in them, then all I would have is a thoroughly spanked punk who knows they can act like an ass so long as mom's not around to hit them.
 

lone wolf

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Spanking sure as hell doesn't instill that. I could spank my kids until I was blue in the face, but if I didn't instill respect for others in them, then all I would have is a thoroughly spanked punk who knows they can act like an ass so long as mom's not around to hit them.

You sorta jumped a step ahead. Discipline is the self restraint inspired by "my ass is gonna blister when Mom finds out" That becomes manners ... something that kids and parents both severely lack today.
 

karrie

OogedyBoogedy
Jan 6, 2007
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You sorta jumped a step ahead. Discipline is the self restraint inspired by "my ass is gonna blister when Mom finds out" That becomes manners ... something that kids and parents both severely lack today.

Hitting your kids isn't the only way to teach manners though wolf... far from it. Hitting your kids without all the other immensely necessary parenting steps, is just hitting your kids.

Absence of beatings doesn't mean absence of discipline, consequence, and respect.