Mass'Debator
Posts: 4,205 
Location: Atlantic Canada
Location: Atlantic Canada
May 21st, 2008, 12:02 PM
http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNew...521?hub=Canada
I mean, duh.... I seriously don't understand how people couldn't think that about 50,000 volts being shot into your body, passing through your heart, wouldn't have some side effects like killing you.
http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNew...521?hub=Canada
Quote:
So the officer seems to lean more towards what a corporation will tell him about the harms involved in the use of their product, over doctors who specialize in what occurs during the effects of their product?
VANCOUVER -- Two heart specialists told an inquiry into the use of Tasers on Tuesday that a jolt from the weapons can "almost certainly" cause heart problems and possibly even sudden cardiac arrest.
And a senior police officer who trains others on how to use the Taser said his training from the company that manufactures the device suggests the Taser does not lead to cardiac arrest.
Dr. Michael Janusz, a heart surgeon and professor of surgery at the University of British Columbia, told the inquiry that based on his study of available literature on Taser use, "almost all physicians would conclude that Tasers can induce ventricular fibrillation."
The hearing was told ventricular fibrillation is an extremely rapid rhythm in the heart's lower chambers, leading to ineffective contractions of the heart.
"In summary, Tasers almost certainly can cause cardiac arrest in humans, particularly in people with underlying heart disease," Janusz said.
A spokesman for Taser International has told the inquiry that Tasers are not risk free and that the term "non-lethal" does not mean safe.
Taser International has maintained there's a big difference between a Taser jolt causing death and contributing to death.
Staff Sgt. Joe Spindor, of the New Westminster Police Department, told the inquiry Tuesday his Taser training is based on what he was taught by Taser International.
"The information we receive is that it's safe to use on subjects," Spindor said.
He said he hadn't heard of Janusz's opinion on possible cardiac arrest.
"No. I've actually heard the opposite from Taser in my instruction."
Spindor said his officers don't get training in first aid or cardiopulmonary resuscitation.
But the officer also told the hearing he tells his students that a possible outcome of Taser use is injury or death.
Spindor said he teaches that the Taser can be used if a subject is displaying active resistance, though he conceded that the term is not written in his Taser policy.
Commission counsel Patrick McGowan asked if a person is being actively resistant if, after being advised he is under arrest, he starts to flee.
Spindor said that would be considered active resistance, as would behaviour an officer considered to be potentially dangerous or violent.
"The term active resistance isn't in our policy," he said, adding that the words should be added "to make it more clear."
The hearing also heard from Dr. Charles Kerr, another UBC professor and a heart surgeon, who said based on his reading of animal studies and the agitated state of most people who receive a Taser shock, he has concluded a Taser jolt could induce ventricular fibrillation.
"Whatever the cause of death in patients receiving Taser discharges, there does appear to be the potential of a cardiac arrest situation, as has been demonstrated on a number of occasions," Kerr said.
In a state of ventricular fibrillation, "the heart cannot pump blood and, unless it is interrupted quickly, sudden cardiac death will follow."
Kerr and Janusz agreed outside the inquiry that the Taser may still be preferable to a firearm or a club.
"My personal opinion is that they are probably better than a bullet," Kerr said.
But I think we need to have the understanding that. . . there is no question that there have been situations of sudden death," Kerr told reporters.
Janusz said each situation that a police officer uses a Taser has to be judged independently.
"Certainly in many or most situations it's a safer alternative than a gun or a club.
"But I believe the risks are there and you have to be cognitive of the risks and be prepared to deal with any consequence arising from it."
The current phase of the inquiry is looking at the use of the weapon in general and the next phase will look specifically at the death of Robert Dziekanski at the Vancouver airport last fall, after he was hit with an RCMP Taser.
The inquiry has heard that some police force policies use the term "active resistance" as a criteria Taser use.
And a senior police officer who trains others on how to use the Taser said his training from the company that manufactures the device suggests the Taser does not lead to cardiac arrest.
Dr. Michael Janusz, a heart surgeon and professor of surgery at the University of British Columbia, told the inquiry that based on his study of available literature on Taser use, "almost all physicians would conclude that Tasers can induce ventricular fibrillation."
The hearing was told ventricular fibrillation is an extremely rapid rhythm in the heart's lower chambers, leading to ineffective contractions of the heart.
"In summary, Tasers almost certainly can cause cardiac arrest in humans, particularly in people with underlying heart disease," Janusz said.
A spokesman for Taser International has told the inquiry that Tasers are not risk free and that the term "non-lethal" does not mean safe.
Taser International has maintained there's a big difference between a Taser jolt causing death and contributing to death.
Staff Sgt. Joe Spindor, of the New Westminster Police Department, told the inquiry Tuesday his Taser training is based on what he was taught by Taser International.
"The information we receive is that it's safe to use on subjects," Spindor said.
He said he hadn't heard of Janusz's opinion on possible cardiac arrest.
"No. I've actually heard the opposite from Taser in my instruction."
Spindor said his officers don't get training in first aid or cardiopulmonary resuscitation.
But the officer also told the hearing he tells his students that a possible outcome of Taser use is injury or death.
Spindor said he teaches that the Taser can be used if a subject is displaying active resistance, though he conceded that the term is not written in his Taser policy.
Commission counsel Patrick McGowan asked if a person is being actively resistant if, after being advised he is under arrest, he starts to flee.
Spindor said that would be considered active resistance, as would behaviour an officer considered to be potentially dangerous or violent.
"The term active resistance isn't in our policy," he said, adding that the words should be added "to make it more clear."
The hearing also heard from Dr. Charles Kerr, another UBC professor and a heart surgeon, who said based on his reading of animal studies and the agitated state of most people who receive a Taser shock, he has concluded a Taser jolt could induce ventricular fibrillation.
"Whatever the cause of death in patients receiving Taser discharges, there does appear to be the potential of a cardiac arrest situation, as has been demonstrated on a number of occasions," Kerr said.
In a state of ventricular fibrillation, "the heart cannot pump blood and, unless it is interrupted quickly, sudden cardiac death will follow."
Kerr and Janusz agreed outside the inquiry that the Taser may still be preferable to a firearm or a club.
"My personal opinion is that they are probably better than a bullet," Kerr said.
But I think we need to have the understanding that. . . there is no question that there have been situations of sudden death," Kerr told reporters.
Janusz said each situation that a police officer uses a Taser has to be judged independently.
"Certainly in many or most situations it's a safer alternative than a gun or a club.
"But I believe the risks are there and you have to be cognitive of the risks and be prepared to deal with any consequence arising from it."
The current phase of the inquiry is looking at the use of the weapon in general and the next phase will look specifically at the death of Robert Dziekanski at the Vancouver airport last fall, after he was hit with an RCMP Taser.
The inquiry has heard that some police force policies use the term "active resistance" as a criteria Taser use.
I mean, duh.... I seriously don't understand how people couldn't think that about 50,000 volts being shot into your body, passing through your heart, wouldn't have some side effects like killing you.
House Member
Posts: 2,821
Location: California
Location: California
May 21st, 2008, 02:22 PM
The officer said that he tells his students that the possible outcome of taser use is injury or death. Doesn't sound like he's denying the obvious to me. He just seems to say the same thing that the doctors do: that it can be preferable to a gun or a club even though in rare cases it can kill.
The officer said that he tells his students that the possible outcome of taser use is injury or death. Doesn't sound like he's denying the obvious to me. He just seems to say the same thing that the doctors do: that it can be preferable to a gun or a club even though in rare cases it can kill.
House Member
Posts: 2,821
Location: California
Location: California
May 21st, 2008, 03:15 PM
Maybe they should give people a choice before they actually do it?
Quoting Lester
I've seen gun shot wounds and I'd rather be tasered!
I've said it before - I think i'd rather be shot(except for the brain,heart, liver or anything else that I only have one in inventory)
Maybe they should give people a choice before they actually do it?
May 21st, 2008, 04:19 PM
Quoting Lester
considering the path of destruction through the tissues of your body, chances are good a gunshot will hit something you only have one of. Keep in mind that the tiny little bullet hole leaves a wake of destruction through your tissue roughly the diameter of a woman's fist. The statistics are highly in your favor to survive a tasering. And I'm willing to bet the recovery is a might bit quicker.
I've said it before - I think i'd rather be shot(except for the brain,heart, liver or anything else that I only have one in inventory)
Electoral Member
Posts: 902
Location: Red Deer AB
Location: Red Deer AB
May 21st, 2008, 04:44 PM
Perhaps they should move onto using rocksalt. Scatter load or long distance. Once the salt embeds itself into the flesh, all other thoughts halt and the victim has his full attention on his wounds. The salt eventually absorbs into the blood and is expelled by natural body processes. the salt might even aid halting any bleeding.
Warning, if you try to remove the salt by extraction the victim will probably try and kill you for 'aggravating' an already tender area. So make sure they are out cold.
Perhaps they should move onto using rocksalt. Scatter load or long distance. Once the salt embeds itself into the flesh, all other thoughts halt and the victim has his full attention on his wounds. The salt eventually absorbs into the blood and is expelled by natural body processes. the salt might even aid halting any bleeding.
Warning, if you try to remove the salt by extraction the victim will probably try and kill you for 'aggravating' an already tender area. So make sure they are out cold.
May 21st, 2008, 06:31 PM
Well of course they are better than being shot. That's not really the dilemma though. If it were such a choice, well there would have been many people shot by police for not laying on their stomach. It's really more like a choice between a shot of pepper spray or a baton.
It's the lackadaisical manner in which the weapon is being employed that has people up in arms, and the advent of cellular camera phones and other digital media that makes the images readily available.
Well of course they are better than being shot. That's not really the dilemma though. If it were such a choice, well there would have been many people shot by police for not laying on their stomach. It's really more like a choice between a shot of pepper spray or a baton.
It's the lackadaisical manner in which the weapon is being employed that has people up in arms, and the advent of cellular camera phones and other digital media that makes the images readily available.
Mass'Debator
Posts: 4,205
Location: Atlantic Canada
Location: Atlantic Canada
May 22nd, 2008, 08:10 AM
Naw, once enough people start freaking about the tasers and the risks of death from them, all that will be done is they'll replace those tasers with that new US Microwave Beam thing they've been working on that cooks your skin and makes large crowds disperse quickly... as they claim that's not harmless.
Naw, once enough people start freaking about the tasers and the risks of death from them, all that will be done is they'll replace those tasers with that new US Microwave Beam thing they've been working on that cooks your skin and makes large crowds disperse quickly... as they claim that's not harmless.
