Knows No Bounds
Posts: 2,669 
Location: California
Location: California
May 13th, 2008, 03:15 PM
Health care ethicists are all over the map on some issues and in the real world I don't have too much time for their opinions because they are toothless tigers. More often than not in my line of work we will do things that 99% of us consider unethical if the parents want it. I've seen ethics committees make rulings time and again, but we ignore them if the parents don't want to do what the ethics committee says. That's why I put more stock in the courts. They will sometimes rule in favor of the parents and sometimes in favor of the doctors and whatever they rule has to be respected.
My personal beliefs are probably a lot different than what you'd think. By far, the worst days I've had at work are when I have to look after a baby when we should just let him or her die but the parents won't let go. It's the opposite problem of this case. Their chance of survival is slim to none, their chance of surviving intact is zero and all the treatments we have to do to keep them alive for a few more days cause them pain. The parents are in complete denial and really don't have much insight into what their choices will mean for their future and for their child. I feel like I've tortured those babies. I won't go into the really grim specifics, but suffice it to say, it gets sickening. You know why I do it though? Because it isn't about MY personal beliefs. The law says the parents in that case are the ultimate decision makers. Almost all the ethical experts would agree we are causing those babies needless suffering, but we respect the parents wishes.
I that you're generalizing a bit. Not all 11 year olds will have the insight you did, especially one with FAS. Courts can emancipate minors if they feel they have the insight required to make those decisions. This court didn't. I don't understand people who say that children should be able to make their own decisions all the time. We don't let them vote, we don't let them drive, we don't let them drink, we don't let them drop out of school at a young age, we don't let them enter into contracts.... but when it comes to complex medical decisions, then they should be able to do what they want. There's no logic there.
Quoting Praxius
The treatment hasn't "failed" because remission didn't last forever. Success is defined by being alive in 5 years time. He was in remission for 4 years. He is still alive and stands a pretty good chance of staying alive. If he doesn't, then treatment has failed.
If they're inbred retards, I would agree with you, but as already pointed out, the parent(s) already went with the doctor's suggestions and they screwed it up and their suggestion failed... they had their chance to show their better knowlege and failed.
Quoting Praxius
Those professionals have problems with it, but I don't see any of them outright saying it absolutely shouldn't happen in this case or in general. Believe it or not, I have ethical concerns with this kind of thing also. Acknowledging that doesn't mean I necessarily think it's wrong. I don't know enough about this particular case to say one way or the other (neither does anyone on this forum).
As we've seen, the law sucks bones in certain situations and proper human understanding of the situation is required for each. Perhaps you can make a better argument by addressing the new updates from similar experts above as the "experts" who took the children away. Apparenlty this situation isn't justified by all professionals.
Health care ethicists are all over the map on some issues and in the real world I don't have too much time for their opinions because they are toothless tigers. More often than not in my line of work we will do things that 99% of us consider unethical if the parents want it. I've seen ethics committees make rulings time and again, but we ignore them if the parents don't want to do what the ethics committee says. That's why I put more stock in the courts. They will sometimes rule in favor of the parents and sometimes in favor of the doctors and whatever they rule has to be respected.
Quoting Praxius
That's what you don't understand: This isn't about MY personal beliefs. It isn't even about yours. The law sets a standard for the medical care of children. That's what has to be followed.
When does one suffering overide another suffering? I have had my own experiences with family members ending up suffering more for longer then natural because of so-called "Experts" and I know what this does to families..... the final decision should be left to the family, regardless of your own personal beliefs.
My personal beliefs are probably a lot different than what you'd think. By far, the worst days I've had at work are when I have to look after a baby when we should just let him or her die but the parents won't let go. It's the opposite problem of this case. Their chance of survival is slim to none, their chance of surviving intact is zero and all the treatments we have to do to keep them alive for a few more days cause them pain. The parents are in complete denial and really don't have much insight into what their choices will mean for their future and for their child. I feel like I've tortured those babies. I won't go into the really grim specifics, but suffice it to say, it gets sickening. You know why I do it though? Because it isn't about MY personal beliefs. The law says the parents in that case are the ultimate decision makers. Almost all the ethical experts would agree we are causing those babies needless suffering, but we respect the parents wishes.
Quoting Praxius
First, when you say even the child said, it's really what the dad said the child said. To be frank, you and I don't know that the dad isn't an idiot. He may be a rational man who wants this because he thinks it's best for his child. He may be a controlling dickhead out of touch with reality who has no concern for anything but regaining control. I don't know. The courts got to decide on that question.
Once again from what the child said:
.... he even said to me, 'I don't care. They can even kill me with their chemo and stuff I don't care, as long as I can come home and be home with you and mommy,'' he recalled.
The child is well aware of what the treatment entails, and he knows what death is.... I knew what death was when I was 4 years old. I was contemplating suicide in grades 5-6. To some that would be a young age for a child to know or think of that stuff.... but children do, and children can make those decisions if they choose to... they are human, like you and I, and although their life experience may not be as vast as your's or my own, that doesn't take away their ability to understand the situations presented to them. It all boils down to their education and what their parents allow them to know and understand.
.... he even said to me, 'I don't care. They can even kill me with their chemo and stuff I don't care, as long as I can come home and be home with you and mommy,'' he recalled.
The child is well aware of what the treatment entails, and he knows what death is.... I knew what death was when I was 4 years old. I was contemplating suicide in grades 5-6. To some that would be a young age for a child to know or think of that stuff.... but children do, and children can make those decisions if they choose to... they are human, like you and I, and although their life experience may not be as vast as your's or my own, that doesn't take away their ability to understand the situations presented to them. It all boils down to their education and what their parents allow them to know and understand.
I that you're generalizing a bit. Not all 11 year olds will have the insight you did, especially one with FAS. Courts can emancipate minors if they feel they have the insight required to make those decisions. This court didn't. I don't understand people who say that children should be able to make their own decisions all the time. We don't let them vote, we don't let them drive, we don't let them drink, we don't let them drop out of school at a young age, we don't let them enter into contracts.... but when it comes to complex medical decisions, then they should be able to do what they want. There's no logic there.
Knows No Bounds
Posts: 2,669
Location: California
Location: California
May 13th, 2008, 03:24 PM
Quoting MikeyDB
Not thinking exactly like you does't mean we're not thinking at all. It's entirely possible for a reasonable person to believe the government can get it right in some cases and wrong in others.
We're screwed because it seems from these threads and the feedback swirling around that Canadians have lost the facility to think!
Knows Too Much
Posts: 2,100
Location: Backwater, Ontario.
Location: Backwater, Ontario.
May 13th, 2008, 04:01 PM
Now I see where you are going with the govt. vs people thing, and it does apply in this case, no doubt
I can't prove it, but do believe that, in Canada, and definitely in CC, the majority of people are not cheering on any government. Is that not why we read really angry stuff aimed at the PMO, MP;s, Prov. govt.......on and on. I'm not their biggest fan for sure, any of em.
Do you not think a greater number of Canuks are growing more aware that their first position is that of being bent over a barrel? Speaking to people on the street, most have or know of a horror story, and they are not just a tad put out. They are furious. And they are letting the "powers that be", know.
I read lots of "letters to the editors" of various papers, and now..........as never before, functional illiterates are WRITING in to complain about something. Their grammar and spelling sucks, but they have something legit to bitch about, and realize that they don't have to take the BS any more. Any politician or person in power who fails to take that sort of thing seriously and chuckles up their sleeve, will rue the day.
As for who wants big gov and who doesn't; I don't think that because people don't want what I want, they're dunderheads...............just mislead....
Keep on trukkin, Mikey. We gotta educate'em.
(screw you, Harpo)
Quoting MikeyDB
Point well taken, Mike
Nugg
My point is that if you survey the feedback from people at Canadian Content the only conclusion you can reasonably reach is that people still have "faith"...."believe-in" governments that have demonstrably failed them time and time again! Some want government to be Big Brother and make every decision....use our court system to punish parents for not ensuring that their kids get their highschool diplomas....but hold the line at permitting parents to decide on whether their children ought or ought-not continue chemo-therapy.....
These people rail against the obvious stupidity of a government that was entirely complicit in having Mahar Arar kidnapped and sent off to be tortured by the American GESTAPO... and embrace that it makes sense for Canadians to stand by and do nothing while the United States of Rampant Parnoia pays the home of the Taliban and the recruiting center of Al Qeada half a million to put the grab on a fifteen year old kid..!
If there was ever a clearer indication that Canadians are in capable of conceptualizing and appreciating the obvious inadequacy and rampant failure of Canadian government and our social "institutions".....it would be difficult to imagine!
I want LESS government and MORE freedom to make up my own mind about what happens in my life and making my own choices about how I manage that existence while it seems obvious that a great many Canadians don't have the mental wherewithal to recognize how screwed they are ..... by a system that plays loose and free with morality and concepts of justice....that panders to the terrorist nation of America and demonstrates time and time again that there is no leadership and little integrity of any kind when it comes to Canada's government!
We're screwed because it seems from these threads and the feedback swirling around that Canadians have lost the facility to think!
My point is that if you survey the feedback from people at Canadian Content the only conclusion you can reasonably reach is that people still have "faith"...."believe-in" governments that have demonstrably failed them time and time again! Some want government to be Big Brother and make every decision....use our court system to punish parents for not ensuring that their kids get their highschool diplomas....but hold the line at permitting parents to decide on whether their children ought or ought-not continue chemo-therapy.....
These people rail against the obvious stupidity of a government that was entirely complicit in having Mahar Arar kidnapped and sent off to be tortured by the American GESTAPO... and embrace that it makes sense for Canadians to stand by and do nothing while the United States of Rampant Parnoia pays the home of the Taliban and the recruiting center of Al Qeada half a million to put the grab on a fifteen year old kid..!
If there was ever a clearer indication that Canadians are in capable of conceptualizing and appreciating the obvious inadequacy and rampant failure of Canadian government and our social "institutions".....it would be difficult to imagine!
I want LESS government and MORE freedom to make up my own mind about what happens in my life and making my own choices about how I manage that existence while it seems obvious that a great many Canadians don't have the mental wherewithal to recognize how screwed they are ..... by a system that plays loose and free with morality and concepts of justice....that panders to the terrorist nation of America and demonstrates time and time again that there is no leadership and little integrity of any kind when it comes to Canada's government!
We're screwed because it seems from these threads and the feedback swirling around that Canadians have lost the facility to think!
Now I see where you are going with the govt. vs people thing, and it does apply in this case, no doubt
I can't prove it, but do believe that, in Canada, and definitely in CC, the majority of people are not cheering on any government. Is that not why we read really angry stuff aimed at the PMO, MP;s, Prov. govt.......on and on. I'm not their biggest fan for sure, any of em.
Do you not think a greater number of Canuks are growing more aware that their first position is that of being bent over a barrel? Speaking to people on the street, most have or know of a horror story, and they are not just a tad put out. They are furious. And they are letting the "powers that be", know.
I read lots of "letters to the editors" of various papers, and now..........as never before, functional illiterates are WRITING in to complain about something. Their grammar and spelling sucks, but they have something legit to bitch about, and realize that they don't have to take the BS any more. Any politician or person in power who fails to take that sort of thing seriously and chuckles up their sleeve, will rue the day.
As for who wants big gov and who doesn't; I don't think that because people don't want what I want, they're dunderheads...............just mislead....
Keep on trukkin, Mikey. We gotta educate'em.(screw you, Harpo)
