Senate Member
Posts: 5,573 
Location: Saint John, N.B.
Location: Saint John, N.B.
November 6th, 2007, 12:39 PM
Women usually constitute the moving force behing conservative religious belief, be it Islam or otherwise. I would bet that if you surveyed Christian Americans by gender, you would find the most conservative would be women.....even though Christianity as well asigns women a secondary role......
The point is that the fact most western converts to Mohammadism are female DOES NOT necessarily mean Islam is not oppressive to that gender.
Why this is, I don't know, but I believe it to be true......
Quoting gopher
```millions of women across the Muslim world continue to suffer domestic violence and other kinds of horrors```
Long before you came onto this forum {BTW, a hardy welcome to you}, we discussed several times how Islam is the fastest growing religion on earth and that women constitute the vast majority of those who have converted into it. This belies the myth that the religion is suppressive towards women.
You may do a Google search for further proof of that fact.
Correct in fact.....but displays a lack of understanding of human nature......```millions of women across the Muslim world continue to suffer domestic violence and other kinds of horrors```
Long before you came onto this forum {BTW, a hardy welcome to you}, we discussed several times how Islam is the fastest growing religion on earth and that women constitute the vast majority of those who have converted into it. This belies the myth that the religion is suppressive towards women.
You may do a Google search for further proof of that fact.
Women usually constitute the moving force behing conservative religious belief, be it Islam or otherwise. I would bet that if you surveyed Christian Americans by gender, you would find the most conservative would be women.....even though Christianity as well asigns women a secondary role......
The point is that the fact most western converts to Mohammadism are female DOES NOT necessarily mean Islam is not oppressive to that gender.
Why this is, I don't know, but I believe it to be true......
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November 6th, 2007, 12:48 PM
I've noticed something about Islam and that's that it seems to assume the worst in people and orders things accordingly. Like not allowing a male friend to be alone somewhere with someone's wife. Women segragated or at least behind men when praying at Mosque. It's not all like that, though I'm only speaking from the very small bits of the religion that I have seen.
I've noticed something about Islam and that's that it seems to assume the worst in people and orders things accordingly. Like not allowing a male friend to be alone somewhere with someone's wife. Women segragated or at least behind men when praying at Mosque. It's not all like that, though I'm only speaking from the very small bits of the religion that I have seen.
Newbie
Posts: 17
November 6th, 2007, 01:38 PM
I have also read of a growing problem in the UK; the Sikh community alleges that many of its women, upon entering university, are targeted, courted, and befriended by groups of Muslims with misleading lines of being brothers & sisters in religion and are tricked into converting. The tension erupted a while ago when a young observant Sikh woman was, according to her family, kidnapped by Muslims and converted and they couldn't get in contact with her. Apparently a bunch of Sikhs from her family went to the Muslim family's house and hacked down the door with axes in a desperate attempt to regain contact with their daughter. It's very odd but this is often a symptom of female conversions to Islam: strange disappearance and no contact with family. By all appearances, it's a kidnapping. Maybe it isn't and these women are simply taught not to communicate with their family until they convert to Islam too.
There was also a recent case of this in the Gaza Strip, where a female Christian professor was (according to her family and Fatah) kidnapped by Hamas and forcibly converted. The family is not being allowed to see her and they can't contact her. Hamas claims that she embraced Islam when she married a fellow (Muslim) professor. That Muslim male professor denies any knowledge of having been married.
Quoting Tonington
But it seems odd and redundant to say, unless you identify "fundamentalist" as the true form of a religion. "Fundamentalist" tends to imply a rigid interpretation, and interpretation of religion does not apply to the person who founded it.
Of course I am. The original teachings of Muhammad are the foundation of Islam. Thus strict followers of his words and teachings are fundamentalists.
Quote:
It's actually quite the opposite. As Europe went through the Enlightenment, Islam preserved its territory in the petrified 7th century societal structure created by an illiterate Arab in the desert. The Islamic world reached its 'Enlightenment' period before the Christian world and by all claims of Islam apologists, the Islamic world was more advanced than the Christian world! But it never developed further. Do you have an explanation for this?
What I was saying, is that like Christianity, as our society has evolved through Enlightenment and the Age of Reason, Islam has enjoyed similar gains, though not nearly on the same scale obviously.
Quote:
Yes indeed, criticism of Islam and Mohammed is a crime in Islam, which is why it requires being greatly outnumbered by non-Muslims in a society for Muslims to have anything approaching freedom of conscience and speech. But then they mistakenly believe that the reason for the freedom they have is that Islam is compatible with those principles. And unfortunately, they then think that Western structures founded upon and cultivated alongside distinctly Western, often Judeo-Christian principles (like a secular democracy and guaranteed rights and freedoms) can be applied to Muslim-majority countries. This leads them into a great deal of trouble (i.e. Iran (Islamic revolution), Palestinian territories (Hamas), Turkey (Islamic party and new prez), Lebanon (Hezbollah), Pakistan (MMA), Egypt (Muslim Brotherhood) etc.)
Certainly there are many fundamentalist Muslims, the regimes from which our Muslim population emigrated for instance. Here, Muslims can enjoy more freedom, and that includes scrutiny of their own religious beliefs. [...] They are however free to voice their opinion on them, and disseminate that opinion to other Muslims, a crime no doubt in the closed society of strict Islamic adherence.
Quoting
I haven't been able to find statistics showing that women constitute the majority of converts to Islam so I can't comment on that, but I can tell you that, from what I've read, the major reason cited for why educated Western women are converting to Islam is because of marriage. Islam forbids Muslim women from marrying non-Muslims (on the grounds that they might convert to their husband's religion or raise their children as non-Muslims), but allows Muslim men to marry non-Muslims. I read a fatwa or a well-known imam's advice a while ago encouraging Muslims to marrying non-Muslim women and convert them.
The point is that the fact most western converts to Mohammadism are female DOES NOT necessarily mean Islam is not oppressive to that gender. Why this is, I don't know, but I believe it to be true......
I have also read of a growing problem in the UK; the Sikh community alleges that many of its women, upon entering university, are targeted, courted, and befriended by groups of Muslims with misleading lines of being brothers & sisters in religion and are tricked into converting. The tension erupted a while ago when a young observant Sikh woman was, according to her family, kidnapped by Muslims and converted and they couldn't get in contact with her. Apparently a bunch of Sikhs from her family went to the Muslim family's house and hacked down the door with axes in a desperate attempt to regain contact with their daughter. It's very odd but this is often a symptom of female conversions to Islam: strange disappearance and no contact with family. By all appearances, it's a kidnapping. Maybe it isn't and these women are simply taught not to communicate with their family until they convert to Islam too.
There was also a recent case of this in the Gaza Strip, where a female Christian professor was (according to her family and Fatah) kidnapped by Hamas and forcibly converted. The family is not being allowed to see her and they can't contact her. Hamas claims that she embraced Islam when she married a fellow (Muslim) professor. That Muslim male professor denies any knowledge of having been married.
Quoting
I think you're quite right, and that's often how I've found Muslims describe the necessity of their moral rules to me (i.e. veiling is necessary because the first step to sin is temptation and if a man sees a woman, he will be tempted to commit sin.) Islam does assume the worst in people in other ways though. It appeals to the two basest, most dehumanising feelings in order to convince people of its truth: fear and sexual desire. It imposes many measures to instill fear (such as threats of excruciating punishments on earth and in hell for disobedience) and appeals to men's sexual desires (providing them with multiple wives and virtually no restraints on their sexual appetites, promising sex slaves as payment for engaging in jihad, etc.) Mohammed was known to make his revelations of what heaven was like just before battle in order to raise a fighting spirit in his men and give them a desire for death. His revelations consisted of describing Heaven as a depraved, carnal paradise with virginal big-breasted sex dolls made specially for them to 'enjoy', "perpetually fresh" young boys, and never-ending supplies of alcohol. Mohammed assumed the worst in humanity and accordingly appealed to humanity's very worst desires and traits.
I've noticed something about Islam and that's that it seems to assume the worst in people and orders things accordingly.
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November 6th, 2007, 01:58 PM
The irony is delicious in that Jihad has been described to me as the war within over temptation and desire to do things that we know to be wrong.
Quote:
I think you're quite right, and that's often how I've found Muslims describe the necessity of their moral rules to me (i.e. veiling is necessary because the first step to sin is temptation and if a man sees a woman, he will be tempted to commit sin.) Islam does assume the worst in people in other ways though. It appeals to the two basest, most dehumanising feelings in order to convince people of its truth: fear and sexual desire. It imposes many measures to instill fear (such as threats of excruciating punishments on earth and in hell for disobedience) and appeals to men's sexual desires (providing them with multiple wives and virtually no restraints on their sexual appetites, promising sex slaves as payment for engaging in jihad, etc.) Mohammed was known to make his revelations of what heaven was like just before battle in order to raise a fighting spirit in his men and give them a desire for death. His revelations consisted of describing Heaven as a depraved, carnal paradise with virginal big-breasted sex dolls made specially for them to 'enjoy', "perpetually fresh" young boys, and never-ending supplies of alcohol. Mohammed assumed the worst in humanity and accordingly appealed to humanity's very worst desires and traits.
The irony is delicious in that Jihad has been described to me as the war within over temptation and desire to do things that we know to be wrong.
November 6th, 2007, 03:44 PM
It's not at all redundant. Islam like any other religion has a spectrum of followers. Some are rigid in their interpretations, others are not. Those Muslims living here do not have to live in such a manner that only one interpretation exists.
My intent has been missed. What I meant is that Islam has benefited by migration, as have it's followers. It's amazing what moving to a new society can do for people who have lived under an iron fist. Basically the Muslims who have come over here experienced the fast track. I wasn't saying that the entire Islamic world have undergone the same questioning of doctrines and reasoning like the Western world has. Only that by moving here, they enjoy the end results of our evolution and philosophy. This has allowed the spread of a moderate Islam. Certainly not something that was fought for over in Arabia or any other region where one finds strict Islamic rule.
It does not require being outnumbered by non-Muslims. No Muslims I ever met were deluded in such a way. I'd like to know where it is you're drawing these assumptions from. They come to our countries because we enjoy more freedoms then they have in their homelands, not because Islam is compatible with our style of governance or society in general. They want those freedoms obviously, and that includes less dogma in their face at every corner.
Quoting spelunking_lVVl
But it seems odd and redundant to say, unless you identify "fundamentalist" as the true form of a religion. "Fundamentalist" tends to imply a rigid interpretation, and interpretation of religion does not apply to the person who founded it.
It's not at all redundant. Islam like any other religion has a spectrum of followers. Some are rigid in their interpretations, others are not. Those Muslims living here do not have to live in such a manner that only one interpretation exists.
Quoting spelunking_lVVl
It's actually quite the opposite. As Europe went through the Enlightenment, Islam preserved its territory in the petrified 7th century societal structure created by an illiterate Arab in the desert. The Islamic world reached its 'Enlightenment' period before the Christian world and by all claims of Islam apologists, the Islamic world was more advanced than the Christian world! But it never developed further. Do you have an explanation for this?
My intent has been missed. What I meant is that Islam has benefited by migration, as have it's followers. It's amazing what moving to a new society can do for people who have lived under an iron fist. Basically the Muslims who have come over here experienced the fast track. I wasn't saying that the entire Islamic world have undergone the same questioning of doctrines and reasoning like the Western world has. Only that by moving here, they enjoy the end results of our evolution and philosophy. This has allowed the spread of a moderate Islam. Certainly not something that was fought for over in Arabia or any other region where one finds strict Islamic rule.
Quoting spelunking_lVVl
Yes indeed, criticism of Islam and Mohammed is a crime in Islam, which is why it requires being greatly outnumbered by non-Muslims in a society for Muslims to have anything approaching freedom of conscience and speech. But then they mistakenly believe that the reason for the freedom they have is that Islam is compatible with those principles. And unfortunately, they then think that Western structures founded upon and cultivated alongside distinctly Western, often Judeo-Christian principles (like a secular democracy and guaranteed rights and freedoms) can be applied to Muslim-majority countries.
It does not require being outnumbered by non-Muslims. No Muslims I ever met were deluded in such a way. I'd like to know where it is you're drawing these assumptions from. They come to our countries because we enjoy more freedoms then they have in their homelands, not because Islam is compatible with our style of governance or society in general. They want those freedoms obviously, and that includes less dogma in their face at every corner.
House Member
Posts: 4,554
Location: Minnesota: Gopher State
Location: Minnesota: Gopher State
November 6th, 2007, 09:30 PM
``The point is that the fact most western converts to Mohammadism are female DOES NOT necessarily mean Islam is not oppressive to that gender.
Why this is, I don't know, but I believe it to be true......``
My earlier posts quoted those newly converted women as asserting that Islam liberates women.
As they say, to each their own.
``The point is that the fact most western converts to Mohammadism are female DOES NOT necessarily mean Islam is not oppressive to that gender.
Why this is, I don't know, but I believe it to be true......``
My earlier posts quoted those newly converted women as asserting that Islam liberates women.
As they say, to each their own.
House Member
Posts: 3,365
Location: USA
Location: USA
November 7th, 2007, 11:15 AM
Quoting Avro
Ummmm...this would be listed under "distraction" I think!
Personally I like to see Gods creations and his power over us with it.
Oh God thank you for you wonders.
Oh God thank you for you wonders.
A modern nomad
Posts: 1,118
Location: Berlin, Germany
Location: Berlin, Germany
November 7th, 2007, 11:59 AM
An oppressed person need not feel oppressed.
Quoting 55Mercury
Beat me to it. One of the hopes of affirmative action is that women will open the doors to more women, but studies have repeatedly shown that women as much as men carry the sexist views which prevent equality.
just an observation in life (regarless of religion): women have always been their own worst enemies.
Nothing will keep women down as much as other women!
Nothing will keep women down as much as other women!
An oppressed person need not feel oppressed.
Member
Posts: 92
Location: Ontario
Location: Ontario
November 9th, 2007, 08:15 PM
Quoting spelunking_lVVl
• "Allah commanded the believing women, when they went out of their houses for some need, to cover their faces from above their heads with the Jilbab, leaving only one eye showing [...] if they do that, it will be known that they are free, and that they are not servants or *****s." (Tafsir Ibn Kathir on S.33:59)
Mohammed's concept of female modesty is that, if she doesn't cover her entire body except for one eye, she is a *****.
• "A woman is an object of concealment for when she goes out the devil presents her in alluring looks before men." (Tirmidhi 92
• A woman is like a private part. When she goes out the devil casts a glance at her (Mishkat al-Masabih 2/692)
As for why Muslim men are finding their prayers interrupted by women, there is an Islamic teaching about this:
• A woman, an ass and a dog disrupt the prayer (Sahih Muslim B4N1034)
• When one of you prays without a sutrah, a dog, an ass, a pig, a Jew, a Magian, and a woman cut off his prayer, but it will suffice if they pass in front of him at a distance of over a stone's throw. (Sunan Abu Dawud B2N704)
This is horribly insulting, and even the wife of the Prophet recognised this. 'Aisha said in indignant response to this: "Is the woman an ugly animal?" (Muslim B4N1037) You likened us to the asses and the dogs." (Muslim B4N103 "You have made us equal to the dogs and the asses." (Muslim B4N1039) "You have made us (i.e. women) dogs." (Bukhari V1B9N490) "You have compared us (women) to donkeys and dogs." (Bukhari V1B9N493)
However, even though she recognised that Islam made women "equal to the dogs and the asses" and that it literally "made us dogs", she submitted to it, because Islam is truth and if women are equal to dogs, that must be true and they should act accordingly. Isn't that right?
Islam provides a very tidy excuse, and as a result, millions of women across the Muslim world continue to suffer domestic violence and other kinds of horrors that are not only done in the name of Allah, but are perfectly justified using the Prophet's moral code.
You my friend, dont have a CLUE of what you're quoting. AT ALL. You're the very last person on this forum who should be posting 'quotes ' as you put them. Even people highly educated in Islam have difficulty in finding authentic information and even more so trying to tranlate/interpret it. And you think you're backing up your cause. As if !!!• "Allah commanded the believing women, when they went out of their houses for some need, to cover their faces from above their heads with the Jilbab, leaving only one eye showing [...] if they do that, it will be known that they are free, and that they are not servants or *****s." (Tafsir Ibn Kathir on S.33:59)
Mohammed's concept of female modesty is that, if she doesn't cover her entire body except for one eye, she is a *****.
• "A woman is an object of concealment for when she goes out the devil presents her in alluring looks before men." (Tirmidhi 92
• A woman is like a private part. When she goes out the devil casts a glance at her (Mishkat al-Masabih 2/692)
As for why Muslim men are finding their prayers interrupted by women, there is an Islamic teaching about this:
• A woman, an ass and a dog disrupt the prayer (Sahih Muslim B4N1034)
• When one of you prays without a sutrah, a dog, an ass, a pig, a Jew, a Magian, and a woman cut off his prayer, but it will suffice if they pass in front of him at a distance of over a stone's throw. (Sunan Abu Dawud B2N704)
This is horribly insulting, and even the wife of the Prophet recognised this. 'Aisha said in indignant response to this: "Is the woman an ugly animal?" (Muslim B4N1037) You likened us to the asses and the dogs." (Muslim B4N103
"You have made us equal to the dogs and the asses." (Muslim B4N1039) "You have made us (i.e. women) dogs." (Bukhari V1B9N490) "You have compared us (women) to donkeys and dogs." (Bukhari V1B9N493)However, even though she recognised that Islam made women "equal to the dogs and the asses" and that it literally "made us dogs", she submitted to it, because Islam is truth and if women are equal to dogs, that must be true and they should act accordingly. Isn't that right?
Islam provides a very tidy excuse, and as a result, millions of women across the Muslim world continue to suffer domestic violence and other kinds of horrors that are not only done in the name of Allah, but are perfectly justified using the Prophet's moral code.
Quoting Colpy
The point is that the fact most western converts to Mohammadism are female DOES NOT necessarily mean Islam is not oppressive to that gender.
There is no such religion as Mohammadism. It is called Islam. Mohammed was the last prophet of God, we are believers of God (Islam) not Mohammed.
The point is that the fact most western converts to Mohammadism are female DOES NOT necessarily mean Islam is not oppressive to that gender.
House Member
Posts: 4,554
Location: Minnesota: Gopher State
Location: Minnesota: Gopher State
November 9th, 2007, 08:29 PM
señorita,
Colpy's and spelunker's posts are typical of many Christian-Western believers who are under the illusion that their ideological views and ways are paramount and may be imposed upon all else throughout the world. This is all contrary to the teachings of Jesus whom they claim as spiritual Founder and who taught that one must refrain from sitting in judgment of others. At no point in the New Testament is anyone empowered to impose a standard of living, a way of life, an ideology, or a system of government upon anyone. Yet, these delusionals feel it is their God given right to do so. This is why Colpy and spelunker insist that women are suppressed under Islam even though women under that system deny it and do so with great conviction.
señorita,
Colpy's and spelunker's posts are typical of many Christian-Western believers who are under the illusion that their ideological views and ways are paramount and may be imposed upon all else throughout the world. This is all contrary to the teachings of Jesus whom they claim as spiritual Founder and who taught that one must refrain from sitting in judgment of others. At no point in the New Testament is anyone empowered to impose a standard of living, a way of life, an ideology, or a system of government upon anyone. Yet, these delusionals feel it is their God given right to do so. This is why Colpy and spelunker insist that women are suppressed under Islam even though women under that system deny it and do so with great conviction.
