Soldiers upset over Afghan abuse allegations: Hillier
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I am getting pretty sick and tired of our government (and also "the troops", not the men and women of our armed forces but more the ficitious propaganda creation that everyone is supposed to blindly support, no matter waht they might be up against) trying to somehow blame Canada for what is going wrong in Afghanistan
This piece practically scolds anyone who actually cares what happens to folks we take into our custody.It really seems like "supporting the troops in our mission" means "stop thinking" and "everything we do is good and right and anyone who thinks otherwise is our enemy"
That is really too bad, and can't be any more clear than in this quote from the article
THAT is an insult to all thinking people, no other way to characterize it. I would like that woman to take a list of folks we have detained and PROVE that EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM is a "taliban". I bet that would be totally impossible, from every source I've seen there is no real way to know this. I mean, what about them 80+ folks, the "worst of the worst", who are still in Gitmo having been cleared of any wrongdoing??? They "were" "talibans", right up until they weren't.
If the side of caution, reasoning and honesty is "siding with the enemy" then we are truly sunk
This piece practically scolds anyone who actually cares what happens to folks we take into our custody.It really seems like "supporting the troops in our mission" means "stop thinking" and "everything we do is good and right and anyone who thinks otherwise is our enemy"
That is really too bad, and can't be any more clear than in this quote from the article
THAT is an insult to all thinking people, no other way to characterize it. I would like that woman to take a list of folks we have detained and PROVE that EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM is a "taliban". I bet that would be totally impossible, from every source I've seen there is no real way to know this. I mean, what about them 80+ folks, the "worst of the worst", who are still in Gitmo having been cleared of any wrongdoing??? They "were" "talibans", right up until they weren't.
If the side of caution, reasoning and honesty is "siding with the enemy" then we are truly sunk
Our own media since the begginning of the conflict has been seeking to discredit the operation anyway they could, they seem to convieniently forget what happens to prisoners of the Taliban and Al-Queda. Those people tend to end up in a ditch missing body parts, with evidence of severe torture and brutallity easily identifiable. The luckiest are those that are simply executed. If an uncooperative enemy got rouged up, they should be glad we do not start adopting the Talibans prisoner rights and care program.
To be fair, even in this country, you can be charged as an accomplice to real criminals even if you have done nothing wrong yourself. Some of the people caught may be nothing more than janitors or cooks at Militant bases, or even just family members of insurgents visiting..but maybe during a war, it isn't the best time to visit or seek employ in those places. In the same breathe I would also suggest maybe you shouldn't work for western military bases if you don't wanna get shot at by Taleban.
See, Zzarchov- the last sentence in your post, to me, indicates how and why this mess IS "unwinnable". We don't know who exactly we're fighting, who we're helping, and the folks we help get killed by the folks we are fighting, while folks who help us also get killed by whoever- seems to me that such a muddy situation is a bad place to jump in and take sides, ANY sides. I still think full withdrawal and containment is our best "option", even at this late hour. What we are ostensibly trying to accomplish appears to be literally impossible, especially given the history of the region and the current regional politics. I really do not believe we have "friends" in Afghanistan- especially if, as in the article, Afghan officials have the gall to criticize US as Canadian citizens
Links if you please Mr folcar. You seem to be solidly behind Canadas involvment in this pipeline protection action. We have adopted US prisoner rights, and that means state sanctioned torture and death. No country has a worse human rights record.
well DB...if ya play with creeps long enough, eventually you'll be called a creep too.....
it seems we have to "adopt" the us of g sanctioned torture and death....its all part of the nau....we cant disagree with anything they do.
Yep, without links it cannot be proven that anyone's heads have been removed without sole express permission of the owner's of said heads.
How anyone can't see that making people stand on boxes with underwear on their heads is the worst human right violation is beyond me.
I heard Mr. Hillier's comments and was angry. These are serious allegations. They should not be swept under the rug. It is important to get to the bottom of this, and if the allegations prove to be true, then action must be taken. I don't care how pissed off Mr. Hillier or the troops want to get. We are talking about torture...torture of ALLEGED taliban and terrorist fighters. That should be noticed as well. Just as these abuse charges are alleged...so is the status of the people that these acts of torture may be geared towards.
I'm not sure. Perhaps the Talliban have been always alleging such things to undermine NATO. In which case we would have to ask why do we choose to focus on such allegations now. No doubt if they dig hard enough and long enough they'll find an abuse some where. The simple fact is no prison system is perfect, especially one run by a fragile democracy in the middle of a war zone.
I don't think that is an excuse to let it continue. I still think this is a serious issue that must be investigated and dealt with. No, no system is perfect...BUT...that doesn't mean that we shouldn't try to fix the imperfections...especially when we are talking about alleged torture.
You sound pretty presumptuous. Here are some of your words: "let it continue", "dealt with", "serious issue", alleged torture". Why wouldn't a Tallaban inmate say they were tortured? If you can't win with bullets win with words. What were some of the alleged methods of tortured. I bet they will claim there was sexual abuse. That always gets attention.
I don't know if I should make a comment, because I'll end up being accused of treason or something worse. Nonetheless, does anyone remember My Lai, that is what happens when soldiers are surrounded and confused and finally lash out. If the enemy swims among the people like fish, it is only a matter of time before there is another My Lai. This is why I think we should get out of that place as quickly as we can, because our men don't know who to trust, they don't see any progress, they're being criticised at home, and the next time they drive down the road, they are blown to hell. The worst part is, the cheerleaders and non combatants will be the first to hurl accusations. Everything is so clear and well defined for the arm chair quarterbacks, it isn't so well defined for the poor bugger who has to get up in the morning and knows that might be the last nights sleep he'll get. As far as I'm concerned, the only people who should be there doing the fighting are the sanctimonious fatheads who think they can force their will upon others.
I think we are making progress, that's why I support the mission. I honestly believe we are helping the people of Afghanistan. If I didn't, I wouldn't support the mission.
I'm sorry I'm not that old. Anyway, were talking about Afghan Authorities now.
You talk about Arm Chair quarterbacks so would you then be okay with the soldiers then deciding when it is the best time to come home?
Knowing of the British failure in the 19th century, the Russians in the 20th, and the Americans in the 21st, I don't think we should have ever gone there. If the experience of 3 centuries isn't enough, then someone hasn't learned a damn thing. My Lai was a village in Viet Nam, one day a company of American soldiers was checking it out, somebody did something and suddenly the rage and frustration of fighting an undefineable enemy broke out and the men opened fire, in the carnage that followed, men, women and children were shot down like they were clay pigeons. The people were virtually wiped off the face of the map. Afghanistan has all the portents of something like this happening again, and now there are the car bombs as a bonus. But what the hell would I know, I didn't think we should be there in the first place. Make no mistake, we are not winning, and it is only a matter of time and bodybags before it finally sinks in.
Links if you please Mr folcar. You seem to be solidly behind Canadas involvment in this pipeline protection action.
Actually i am against our involvement, it is an unwinnable action with the best result being a stalemate of the status quo. However i do think our media could try something else other than looking to discredit our forces, when the actions of the enemy clearly prove are methods are not as barbaric.
Links you shall have!
http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/world/archives/2005/09/04/2003270325
http://www.guardian.co.uk/afghanistan/story/0,1284,1526629,00.html
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/4211424.stm
http://english.eastday.com/eastday/englishedition/world/userobject1ai2654210.html
http://www.abc.net.au/ra/news/stories/s1452226.htm
http://www.rferl.org/featuresarticle/2006/03/68BE6182-40DC-405F-B1F7-BBE2C6F62F29.html
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0WDQ/is_2004_July_6/ai_n6280514
The mainstream media goes on and on about how bad we treat prisoners who are very much alive and being provided basic neccessities, just a few examples of why you don't want to be caught by by the Taliban!
Actually i am against our involvement, it is an unwinnable action with the best result being a stalemate of the status quo. However i do think our media could try something else other than looking to discredit our forces, when the actions of the enemy clearly prove are methods are not as barbaric.
Links you shall have!
http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/world/archives/2005/09/04/2003270325
http://www.guardian.co.uk/afghanistan/story/0,1284,1526629,00.html
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/4211424.stm
http://english.eastday.com/eastday/englishedition/world/userobject1ai2654210.html
http://www.abc.net.au/ra/news/stories/s1452226.htm
http://www.rferl.org/featuresarticle/2006/03/68BE6182-40DC-405F-B1F7-BBE2C6F62F29.html
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0WDQ/is_2004_July_6/ai_n6280514
The mainstream media goes on and on about how bad we treat prisoners who are very much alive and being provided basic neccessities, just a few examples of why you don't want to be caught by by the Taliban!
I don't see this as disparaging our forces at all. On the contrary its about protecting them.
I think its outrageous (but not surprising) that people continue to parade the Taliban's reputation around as some sort universal justification for what ails the cause in this case including eschewing ministerial responsibilitly, demonstrated administrative bungling, blatant and incessasant lying and refusing to take action to maintain confidence in Cabinet.
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The Taliban are deffinately not going to be the poster boys for a human rights campaign, but my point was that it is nice of the media to throw the book at our soldiers and forget all about what the enemy we are fighting has done. I do agree that alot of our continuing involvement has been justified by emphasing the Talibans less than humane practices. I just want our boys home, they have done there duty honourably but this is a war i believe we cannot win under present circumstances.