Christmas tree banned from courthouse lobby

CBC News

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Sep 26, 2006
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A Toronto judge has banished a Christmas tree from the lobby of a provincial courthouse, saying the "Christian symbol" might alienate people of other faiths.

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ottawabill

Electoral Member
May 27, 2005
909
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Eastern Ontario
never thought I'd quote Dalton but I agree

"It doesn't offend anyone when we celebrate Diwali at Queen's Park or celebrate Hanukkah at Queen's Park," he said. "It's part of who we are."

As well a Christmas tree is NOT a christian symbol...it is a decorated tree...really no more to do with the Church holiday than Santa Claus....

We really have let the legal system and Lawyers go mad with their rulings...between stuff like this, a couple years for murder, and everyone feeling the liability over everything....No one needs to take responsibity for any actions a judge will say it's you boss, big business or tobbacco that made you do it...

we really need to put common back in common sence
 

MikeyDB

House Member
Jun 9, 2006
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One way or another most likely with sympathetic friends like Colpy and a few others here, Jews will be telling us not only that we can't have Christmas trees because they're offensive to Jews, but you'll be told what you can and can't say regarding Israel...Oh woops we've got that now...and they'll tell you that generations born after the Holocuast OWE Israel and Jews the duty and responsibility to erect as many Holocaust memorials as can be fitted on one nation...Oh woops we've got that too...

You think the conflict in Israel is the end of the story?

We're just seeing the beginning and luckily supporters like Colpy et al. will happily dance to tune of the OH SO UNFORTUNATE Jews...until he's got some skinheads or White Supremacists to shoot while maintaining good law and Order of course at the behest of the Jews!





'?
 

ottawabill

Electoral Member
May 27, 2005
909
8
18
Eastern Ontario
One way or another most likely with sympathetic friends like Colpy and a few others here, Jews will be telling us not only that we can't have Christmas trees because they're offensive to Jews, but you'll be told what you can and can't say regarding Israel...Oh woops we've got that now...and they'll tell you that generations born after the Holocuast OWE Israel and Jews the duty and responsibility to erect as many Holocaust memorials as can be fitted on one nation...Oh woops we've got that too...

You think the conflict in Israel is the end of the story?

We're just seeing the beginning and luckily supporters like Colpy et al. will happily dance to tune of the OH SO UNFORTUNATE Jews...until he's got some skinheads or White Supremacists to shoot while maintaining good law and Order of course at the behest of the Jews!





'?

You know Mickey, you've got to be the most one tracked person on these threads..outside of maybe Sactum...Beyond that the Judge has a jewish last name..cohen what more was there....This has been an issue with all types of people and seems to be generally carried out by left wing European stock to be worried about offending other sects....

Damn sometimes you sound like Chucky Manson trying to start race riots but killing beautiful women stars..just don't make a whole lotta sence..
 

selfactivated

Time Out
Apr 11, 2006
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Richmond, Virginia
Oh I know better but here I go........

One of two things need to happen. Either set up a universal hoiday or dont put anything up at all. Its way to personal. Maybe some great artist could create an universal symbol that collectively represented ALL holiday symbols of that time of year. Pagans dont care Yall stole all of our symbols ;) :p
 

ottawabill

Electoral Member
May 27, 2005
909
8
18
Eastern Ontario
I understand what your trying to say....but with all due respect I have know Idea who these offended people are...I live and work in a diverse area with a very ethinic makeup and I have met no one who is offended..for that matter I have budist Chinese families who put out Christmas displays...so who are they???
 

selfactivated

Time Out
Apr 11, 2006
4,276
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Richmond, Virginia
I understand what your trying to say....but with all due respect I have know Idea who these offended people are...I live and work in a diverse area with a very ethinic makeup and I have met no one who is offended..for that matter I have budist Chinese families who put out Christmas displays...so who are they???

Around here? A lot of political (the word idiots comes to mind). People in general dont care. But it makes good press and spotlights certain groups that want to be seen as "looking out" for the minority. Thats my opinion anyway.
 

MikeyDB

House Member
Jun 9, 2006
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You know Mickey, you've got to be the most one tracked person on these threads..outside of maybe Sactum...Beyond that the Judge has a jewish last name..cohen what more was there....This has been an issue with all types of people and seems to be generally carried out by left wing European stock to be worried about offending other sects....

Damn sometimes you sound like Chucky Manson trying to start race riots but killing beautiful women stars..just don't make a whole lotta sence..

So have you heard about a simlar event taking place in Seattle? If a Christian or a Moslem told Jews that they can't display the Star of David or a menorah or any other Jewish symbol what do you think the response would be from Jews?

It's too bad that so many Canadians are more concerned with political correctness and "respecting" the rights of everyone from Moslems to Jews to anyone else who gets offended by X Y or Z... than they are with standing up for a tradition that has existed for Christians and Non-Christians wishing to celebrate this time of year for generations...

Do you really think that Anti-Semites, the Ayan Brotherhood and dozens of other groups won't use this demonstration of Jewish authority and obvious influence to legitimize defacing a synagogue or two, or painting swastikas on the homes of "them"....?

How long will it take for North Americans to understand that the criminality of 9/11, the falderal around cartoons making fun of Moslems and the recent order by a judge in Toronto and the efforts of a man in Seattle to have Christmas trees removed from public display are all related and interrelated?

If I suggested that we burn crosses on African American's front lawns, that would be perfectly OK so long as there wasn't any remote chance that a Jew or a Moslem would be offended....

These people don't want peace they want control over the way everyone thinks talks and behaves and are willing to not only use the influence of highly placed people in the judiciary and government but violence and whatever else may be necessary to bring the whole world under control.

WAKE UP!
 

MikeyDB

House Member
Jun 9, 2006
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http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/home/
Monday, December 11, 2006 - 12:00 AM
Permission to reprint or copy this article or photo, other than personal use, must be obtained from The Seattle Times. Call 206-464-3113 or e-mail resale@seattletimes.com with your request.

Airport's trees stoking "war on Christmas"
By Stuart Eskenazi
Seattle Times staff reporter

The departure of Christmas tree displays at main passageways at Seattle-Tacoma International Airport — the Port of Seattle's response to a local rabbi's insistence that an electric menorah also be put up — is accelerating into an international spectacle in the so-called "war on Christmas."
And that is not what Rabbi Elazar Bogomilsky wanted.
"I am devastated, shocked and appalled at the decision that the Port of Seattle came to," he said Sunday. As news coverage about the airport's trees spread from CNN to ABC to the Paris-based International Herald Tribune, Bogomilsky on Sunday began to receive hateful messages from people holding him responsible for the removal of the trees.
Harvey Grad, the rabbi's attorney, said the vitriol against Bogomilsky is misplaced, emphasizing that the rabbi neither objected to the trees nor said he found them offensive.
"The last thing we need is anyone thinking that Jews want to end the celebration of Christmas on public property," Grad said.
Bogomilsky is spending today on the TV talk-show circuit, continuing a media frenzy that began Saturday.
Around 4 a.m. Sunday, Port Commissioner Patricia Davis was on the phone with CNN for a live interview, joined by Bogomilsky, who works at Chabad Lubavitch, an education foundation in the University District.
This morning at 5, Davis was to be interviewed on Fox News. The controversy likely will add fuel to what Fox talk-show host Bill O'Reilly and some Christian groups have deemed a "war on Christmas," — a secularization of the traditions and name of Christmas.
By 9 p.m. Sunday, www.seattletimes.com had received about 800 comments to a story that, in print editions, topped the front page.
The displays were removed from the airport's main arrival hall and various entries overnight Friday.
Port staff members were first contacted in October by Mitchell Stein, a consultant to the Port for the past five years, who wanted to install a menorah this year. Stein is also affiliated with Chabad.
"We thought the Port was going to make the right decision to support diversity and Hanukkah," Stein said. "The lawsuit was only a way to get their attention."
Davis said Port commissioners, however, first heard of the issue on Thursday — a day before Grad's deadline for filing a lawsuit.
Airport spokeswoman Terri-Ann Betancourt said the Port's decision was not as simple as whether to put up a menorah.
"Our thought was if we remove the trees and stave off this decision until after the holidays, which is our busiest season of the year, then we can give more careful thought and discussion to this," she said.
The airport has no policy governing the longtime holiday display because no one has ever challenged it before, Betancourt said.
"What we have are holiday trees," she said. "If we are going to display symbols representing other cultures, we have to think what that means and what's respectful and what would make a good display. Maybe it would be 'Holidays of the World.'
"Or maybe it's snowmen."
Grad was set to file a lawsuit Friday morning on behalf of Bogomilsky if the Port did not agree to let him put up the menorah. Grad said he believes that the law is clear regarding Christmas displays in public places — anyone wanting to put up an alternative display must be accommodated.
"There is no debate on this anymore," Grad said. "The menorah is something the Port is legally obligated to put up. But the Port was either unwilling or incapable to do so and instead folded its tent."
Betancourt said that while Port attorneys believed the rabbi has some sound legal points, Port officials did not believe they had the time or budget to put up a culturally sensitive and inclusive holiday display.
Betancourt said the Port "didn't want to be in litigation with the Jewish community."
Grad said he cautioned officials that they were about to make a mistake by removing the trees.
"I told them that this story would have legs, that it would go national," Grad said. The publicity fallout is regrettable, Davis said.
"I'm sorry this has happened, but I hope people will take time to understand the dilemma we were in," she said. "Unfortunately, I don't think most people understand. That's why I think we're getting such an emotional reaction from across the spectrum."
Bogomilsky said he wants the Port to apologize for statements on Saturday that he says passed blame to him.
"I would hate to think it was just a way for them to cover up their poor call," the rabbi said. "This was totally a Port of Seattle decision. The Port should step up and say that."
Stuart Eskenazi: 206-464-2293 or seskenazi@seattletimes.com
Copyright © 2006 The Seattle Times Company
 

gopher

Hall of Fame Member
Jun 26, 2005
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Actually, the Bible condemns the use of green trees in worship as it is construed as pagan idolatry:

Jeremiah 10:1-9


and those who persist in idolatry of this kind will suffer great retribution:

Jeremiah 11:21, 22



Therefore, removing the Christmas tree is, technically speaking, a biblical mandate.
 

sanctus

The Padre
Oct 27, 2006
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www.poetrypoem.com
Actually, the Bible condemns the use of green trees in worship as it is construed as pagan idolatry:

Jeremiah 10:1-9


and those who persist in idolatry of this kind will suffer great retribution:

Jeremiah 11:21, 22

.

Phew, talk about pulling a few verses from the Scriptures and using them out of context! But even so, nobody is using a Christmas tree in worship services. I hardly doubt that the courthouse is the scene of much religious activity which would involve worshipping around the ole Christmas tree.
 

sanctus

The Padre
Oct 27, 2006
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So have you heard about a simlar event taking place in Seattle? If a Christian or a Moslem told Jews that they can't display the Star of David or a menorah or any other Jewish symbol what do you think the response would be from Jews?

It's too bad thatWAKE UP!


The PC agenda reminds me very much of an Orwellian "1984" situation, where big Brother corrects our speech and thinking to accomodate the "correct" view.

A few years ago, in the city I live in, I was invited to open a session of our city council with prayers. This is common in this city, where various clergy go onto a roster to take turns opening council sessions in prayer.

When I turned up at city hall, some officious fellow met me and handed me a sheet of paper which he asked me to read and abide by. He was very polite, but rather annoying.

The paper was a list of PC correct prayers that removed any mention of Jesus or the Trinity. Generic references to "The Creator", etc.,etc.

I was a bit taken aback to my honest with you.

When my turn to pray came up, I walked up to the podium and began my prayer with "In the name of the Father, and the Son...." ,making the sign of the corss as is our custom in Catholic worship. I than prayed the Lord's prayer, joined by several of the councillors.

As I left the podium, this officious jerk came up to me, extremely p++sed.

"Hey Father," he said, "didn't you understand that you shouldn't have said that kind of prayer in the council chambers."

My reply, "Next time you don't want Christian references in a prayer, I suggest you don't ask a priest to lead those prayers."

Needless to say, but I have not been invited back:)
 

sanctus

The Padre
Oct 27, 2006
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Every year at this time the same stories surface. Always they involve removing nativity scenes or Christmas trees from public buildings, the same buildings often dedicated to God when they were built.

A case in point, Windsor, my city, has a city hall built in the 1950's. On the front of the building is a Bible passage. Can't recall off-hand which one, but it is set in stone on the face of the building.

In this same building, nothing "Christ-like" is permitted for fear of offending people.

On the same topic, recently Windsor held its annual Christmas parade...a parade in which the bands and performers were instructed NOT to perform Christian Christmas carols because a local Muslim group finds them offensive. Two exceptions, one band performed "O Come All Ye Faithful", and another "Joy to the World". Naturally, both were local Catholic High School bands. Some people were literally besides themselves with anger at this "violation". A Muslim cleric I know said it was an outright outrage that these two bands performed Christian hymns.

I said, "Oh come on A----, they're Catholic High School bands, what the hell else would you expect them to perform?"
 

ottawabill

Electoral Member
May 27, 2005
909
8
18
Eastern Ontario
it's funny how the hope of a multi-cultural society has turned to being a homogenis society anyways...instead of allowing different faith points of view, we are to show none...

How many times have I heard " faith should be kept in the Church and home" It is not faith if it is kept there, it's just something to do on a Sunday morning... We are to live the faith not just hear about it then go on in a secular world.

As I have repeated on this and other threads..the only people offended are people of no faith....the general population has no problem with each others faith, symbols or festivals...just a few noisy pissy leaders
 

sanctus

The Padre
Oct 27, 2006
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How many times have I heard " faith should be kept in the Church and home" It is not faith if it is kept there, it's just something to do on a Sunday morning... We are to live the faith not just hear about it then go on in a secular world.
Exactly. Faith just on Sunday is not faith at all. In fact, I'd go so far as to suggest that the main reason the Church is in decline the past 30 years is the lack of faith of its membership who see their local parish as some sort of social club. They go there on Sunday, all dressed up, kids sparkling and clean. They join in the prayers and litanies, sing the hymns and than go for coffee in the parish hall. Afterwards they go home and clearly not one word of the Gospel has reached their hearts. Not one word of the homily has drifted into their minds.

They complain, of course, about Father preaching about things they find distasteful to consider. That seems the only time they pay attention!

They will proudly tell you they go to this or that parish. They will tell you how "nice" the Mass is, or they will complain because of the usage of incense, or not using incense; using Latin or not using Latin; altar girls or no altar girls...etc..etc...etc. They will moan when they are asked to contribute to a fund to maintain the very building they should be paying for anyway. They think the parish is some sort of magic place that is self-sustaining financially.

When the Diocese mentions the possiblity of closing the parish, oh how they bitch at that time! They complain because they have memories in the building. They complain because they had events in the building...etc...etc....etc..Heaven Forbid they financially contribute to keep the building open!

But live the faith of the parish they attend..God forbid they should do such a thing. One of my most annoying experiences is going to visit with people who proudly show me their "family" Bible which they have had for years and years and years. It saddens and annoys me because almost always the Bible looks brand new despite its age...

And the reasons people have for not being faithful in their Sunday attendance..sheesh. I could write a flipping book just on the excuses I've heard!!

So why is the Church in decline....because the people of the Church are in decline with their daily faith...

sorry to go off...a sore point with me:)
 

Curiosity

Senate Member
Jul 30, 2005
7,326
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My grandparents and my parents and uncles and aunts all celebrated part of Christmas....

....with an Open House..... I mean a really Open House. During the early 40s, many refugee Jewish families who had been brought to Canada were also included and they had a wonderful time .... even brought some of their own treats in case there were no "kosher" offerings ....

Nobody was offended .... the trees in the houses and the lights just made a pretty picture to everyone ... and in those days there weren't many gifts to hand around so the tree was it....and the people were far more important than what was under the tree.

I find it offensive when people start roping off "Christmas" because it means so many things to our western world.... and most of it is quite good if people will allow it to happen instead of trying to take
the spirit and walk all over it.

We do not have enough sharing and celebration, all-inclusive and as Self wrote earlier ... maybe we need a day on our calendar which celebrates Love and Kindness.....

About the tree in the courthouse - I believe in separation of church and state and in this case perhaps that is what the judge considered. I am not excusing him but there is a fine line we should not cross....