Won't 'sell out' on rights despite China snub: PM
- Thread starter CBC News
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There are times, rare I admit, when I would just like to deep kiss the PM.
In a purely approving manner.
If you know what I mean.
In a purely approving manner.
If you know what I mean.
Whenever destruction comes up in the press, China is there. Whether it's the rape of the oceans (China has the world's largest fishing fleet) or destruction of rainforests (China is the number one importer of illegal timber) or virtually anything involving culling of the earth's resources China has its hand shoulder deep in the pot. It's embarrassing to see Canadian business interests appalled at Harper's stance. Just once - just once - could they display a moral backbone.
Endorsement of our PM.
Hi there,
I need to admit that we have to applaud our government for keeping yhat portion of our values true to what they really are... China is in my mind one of the worst in violation of ALL kinds. Their prisoners human organs harvesting program give me shiver down my spine every times I think of Falung Gong political prisoners being harvested by a criminal regime. I have been informed that China would have a fearful number of spy in Canada.
There is one part in your comment where I disagree: when you praise the conservatives for their good work so far... I'll explain myself.
We should stand firm on environmental issues. Mrs. Ambrose dosen't do any Canadian good by limiting efforts and "Blocking the advancement of the spread of technologies to the porest nations." As reported from groups in Nairobi. Quebecers STRONGLY endorse powerful mesures to combat GLOBAL WARMING (GW) and not "SMOG". (I'll come back to Quebecers satisfaction later)
Everyone's (Signatories of Kyoto) telling us: "We need to act on GW, right now..." But "we, To libel ourselves at the image of our government" think it's air pollution that matter so we blame the Liberals... OMG, what a childish and unrealistic governement would think of "snubbing" the UN and the International Community that bad. I hope they'll forgive our "illness" when we switch back from a forced election...
I need to say, from a Quebecer point of view that Mr. Harper dosen't do enough to fix an imbalance in sharing with the provinces, I am in the heart of what I can consider as a major shift in our faith to trust a Federal government that isn't able to share it's ALWAYS INCREASING SURPLUS.
I just hope that my feelings are wrong as to what a futur referendum may held. I wish Canadians would be more willing to accept that we may be different in many ways, but we share values and this is on what the Prime Minister should look for when he think about CANADA. Guess why PM have often been Quebecers ? Keeping the values in a Federalistic way. I share this value.
Hope I haven't offended anyone. (But the Conservatives) Were "kit"; they just insulted my love for a solution on the GW.
Good nite.
John Muff
Hi there,
I need to admit that we have to applaud our government for keeping yhat portion of our values true to what they really are... China is in my mind one of the worst in violation of ALL kinds. Their prisoners human organs harvesting program give me shiver down my spine every times I think of Falung Gong political prisoners being harvested by a criminal regime. I have been informed that China would have a fearful number of spy in Canada.
There is one part in your comment where I disagree: when you praise the conservatives for their good work so far... I'll explain myself.
We should stand firm on environmental issues. Mrs. Ambrose dosen't do any Canadian good by limiting efforts and "Blocking the advancement of the spread of technologies to the porest nations." As reported from groups in Nairobi. Quebecers STRONGLY endorse powerful mesures to combat GLOBAL WARMING (GW) and not "SMOG". (I'll come back to Quebecers satisfaction later)
Everyone's (Signatories of Kyoto) telling us: "We need to act on GW, right now..." But "we, To libel ourselves at the image of our government" think it's air pollution that matter so we blame the Liberals... OMG, what a childish and unrealistic governement would think of "snubbing" the UN and the International Community that bad. I hope they'll forgive our "illness" when we switch back from a forced election...
I need to say, from a Quebecer point of view that Mr. Harper dosen't do enough to fix an imbalance in sharing with the provinces, I am in the heart of what I can consider as a major shift in our faith to trust a Federal government that isn't able to share it's ALWAYS INCREASING SURPLUS.
I just hope that my feelings are wrong as to what a futur referendum may held. I wish Canadians would be more willing to accept that we may be different in many ways, but we share values and this is on what the Prime Minister should look for when he think about CANADA. Guess why PM have often been Quebecers ? Keeping the values in a Federalistic way. I share this value.
Hope I haven't offended anyone. (But the Conservatives) Were "kit"; they just insulted my love for a solution on the GW.
Good nite.
John Muff
I keep scrapbooks. I find direct links to newspaper coverage best this way. I don't trust the web to warehouse what I need. One of the books is strictly for China. Recent entries profile the country's record on Tibet, where Tibetans have been harassed and then shot by Chinese troops, and China's record on human organ trafficking, where the government seems to be abetting the forced removal of vital organs from members of groups the big boys deem politically incorrect. Nice folks!
Earlier entries deal with items like the practice of the Chinese at their zoos to throw in live animals for the tigers to devour. They have to have their fun.
I try hard not to buy Chinese. A challenge for sure. But I am so outraged by the practices of the country and so outraged at those western interests that support it that I have to try.
If the West is ever to have a higher moral position to stand on, it has to stop sucking on China's big ass.
Earlier entries deal with items like the practice of the Chinese at their zoos to throw in live animals for the tigers to devour. They have to have their fun.
I try hard not to buy Chinese. A challenge for sure. But I am so outraged by the practices of the country and so outraged at those western interests that support it that I have to try.
If the West is ever to have a higher moral position to stand on, it has to stop sucking on China's big ass.
Tamarin
I attempted to post to this thread earlier this morning but when I logged in the thread was gone...
Or I wasn't looking at it right..
That's why I started the thread that I did on Harper's promises...
If this "promise" actually held any substance then let me ask anyone this question...
When you're shopping in Walmart, have you checked-out how much product comes from China and is marketed through Walmart and other stores?
If Canada actually had a leadership worth calling a "government" that had any integrity to speak of when it comes to taking a stand on human rights ~ China...there'd be a tariff applied to anything entering this country that was manufactured in China...
What would anyone think the U.S. would say if this action were taken by Canada?
You can bet we'd all hear about how our trade policies are in contravention of the NAFTA accord and whines and crying about how unfair Canadian policy is to American corporations making millions by funnelling Chinese merchandise through American corporations....
Principles....yeah sure...
I attempted to post to this thread earlier this morning but when I logged in the thread was gone...
Or I wasn't looking at it right..
That's why I started the thread that I did on Harper's promises...
If this "promise" actually held any substance then let me ask anyone this question...
When you're shopping in Walmart, have you checked-out how much product comes from China and is marketed through Walmart and other stores?
If Canada actually had a leadership worth calling a "government" that had any integrity to speak of when it comes to taking a stand on human rights ~ China...there'd be a tariff applied to anything entering this country that was manufactured in China...
What would anyone think the U.S. would say if this action were taken by Canada?
You can bet we'd all hear about how our trade policies are in contravention of the NAFTA accord and whines and crying about how unfair Canadian policy is to American corporations making millions by funnelling Chinese merchandise through American corporations....
Principles....yeah sure...
"If Canada actually had a leadership worth calling a "government" that had any integrity to speak of when it comes to taking a stand on human rights ~ China...there'd be a tariff applied to anything entering this country that was manufactured in China..."
Mike, I agree. I just don't think there's a lot to be done about it. I think China should be held to account but given its importance to the world economy few seem up to the job. And that's why, in the end, we lose. Not only in important areas like this, but in all areas that involve principle. You either have it or you don't. We don't.
Sadly, no one else does either.
Mike, I agree. I just don't think there's a lot to be done about it. I think China should be held to account but given its importance to the world economy few seem up to the job. And that's why, in the end, we lose. Not only in important areas like this, but in all areas that involve principle. You either have it or you don't. We don't.
Sadly, no one else does either.
Amnesty International's Annual report on China:
Pretty bad.
Canada can criticize China legitimately, but we aren't perfect either:
However, the US has no legitimacy to lecture China on human rights. I would post the AI's human rights concerns regarding the US but because of Guantánamo Bay, Military commissions, Detentions in Iraq and Afghanistan, Detentions in undisclosed locations, Torture and ill-treatment outside the USA, Detention of ‘enemy combatants’ in the USA, Prisoners of conscience, Ill-treatment and excessive use of force, Abuses of lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender people, Death penalty, Child offenders serving life imprisonment and Hurricane Katrina response, the 15,000 word limt wouldn't let me cut and paste it.
I think Canada should take a strong stand on human rights. We can improve and we shouldn't give any nation a free pass.
Pretty bad.
Canada can criticize China legitimately, but we aren't perfect either:
However, the US has no legitimacy to lecture China on human rights. I would post the AI's human rights concerns regarding the US but because of Guantánamo Bay, Military commissions, Detentions in Iraq and Afghanistan, Detentions in undisclosed locations, Torture and ill-treatment outside the USA, Detention of ‘enemy combatants’ in the USA, Prisoners of conscience, Ill-treatment and excessive use of force, Abuses of lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender people, Death penalty, Child offenders serving life imprisonment and Hurricane Katrina response, the 15,000 word limt wouldn't let me cut and paste it.
I think Canada should take a strong stand on human rights. We can improve and we shouldn't give any nation a free pass.
Earth_as_One
It certainly is appropriate to examine each nations record on human rights, if for no other reason than to compare the effectiveness of particular ideological “models”. A comparison in terms of a particular ideology’s contribution, interpretation and actualization of the concept of “human rights” with another nations expression of “human rights”.
Conceptual systems like the United Nations 1948 “Universal Declaration Human Rights” rely for their substance on the will and effort of both government and individual’s in actualizing its principles. No individual can claim familiarity with the concept of “human rights” without having examined their own nation’s legal system and explored the history of how one’s own nation has exercised these principles. Comparing one nation’s or one people’s statement and execution of the concept with a different nation reveals a great deal about the people of any nation.
But one must always keep in mind that what we’re talking about is a conceptual model not a binding system of jurisprudence. While an electoral process might achieve something akin to Article 21’s “will of the people shall be the basis of the authority of government…” that’s hardly reflective of the current body of sentiment regarding a very significant portion of what’s going on in the world at this very moment.
Is there special significance for instance (or perhaps “ought there be”) when examining the constitution of a nation, it’s statements of principles as enshrined in its Bill of Rights in light of that nations behaviour on the world stage? Is it reasonable to expect that if a nation embraces the concept that “human rights” and in particular the United Nations declaration of human rights is one of that nations guiding principles, that it can then claim exoneration from responsibility to those principles under the rubric of a pre-emptive assault against another nation…say in the name of “self-defence”?
Western democracies for instance have so ineptly managed the wealth of nations for decades that the inevitable consequence is that “human rights” suffer. Seldom are these more ineffable ideas like “human rights” identified when a population becomes aware of the enormous waste, mismanagement and corruption discovered in national governments and their bureaucracies. When an enclave of aboriginals or an ethnic minority suffers at the exercise of a governments broken promises for generations can that government despite its espousal of commitment to human rights really be considered to be exercising “human rights”?
When a population tacitly supports erection and maintenance of a system of economics that employs sweatshops and slave labour for profitability for an elite few, are these individuals part of the solution or are they part of the problem?
When a population develops a sense of exclusive entitlement to conspicuous consumption coupled with indiscriminate waste, are these people victims to a sculpted perception of reality i.e. “conditioned to consume” or are they merely comfortably oblivious to their contribution in oppressing the poor of many nations around the world?
Telling one’s government that as an individual he or she is alarmed at their governments flagrant disregard for “human rights” won’t go nearly as far as simply altering one’s consumption and purchasing habits. When self-discipline and “making the right (moral) choice” fail to impact the consuming behaviour is that “governments” fault or are we all as individuals responsible for shirking our commitment in the name of “getting a deal”????
Greetings from China.
On the one hand, it's absolutely foolhardy of the Canadian government to be criticizing Chinese human rights so openly. If it wants to do that, then do so through official channels through the UN. China respects the UN, to some extent anyway. But it certainly doesn't appreciate any nation criticizing it so publicly. This is a cultural issue Canada is obviously unaware of. Even Chinese who don't particularly like their government will back it against criticism from abroad out of offence (they interpret it as colonialist interference in their internal affairs, even if they agree with the criticism in principle). It's really an issue of national pride and face, a very big issue in Chinese culture.
I'm not saying Canada ought not to criticize China. I'm just saying, do so through official channnels only. That's just how things work in the Chinese mind.
As for the 'fallen gang' (I'm in China, so I need to watch my spelling if you know what I mean), I would still be wary of them. On the one hand, the govt has hit them hard, beyond anything reasonable. On the other, from what I understand, the 'fallen gang' has its own agenda in China too, and is not all that innocent either.
As for trade, I think more trade with China would be a good thing as a way to promote more cultural exchanges between China and Canada. Certainly if Canada decides to play hardball with China, China can play just as hard. In that way, Canada would lose any opprotunity to promote more cultural relations. Before China can witness any great economic or political attainments, it must first undergo radical cultural changes. Honestly, the Chinese people are simply not ready, on a cultural level, for the rapid political changes expected of them from the West. Heck, they're still recovering from the Opium wars on a cultural and psychological level, believe it or not. They still have far to go to forgive Japan, and are naturally suspicious of foreign intervention in their nation (it reminds them of their past). From this perspective, when we criticise them, they think of their past, and we look like real hypocrites.
Just my perspective.
On the one hand, it's absolutely foolhardy of the Canadian government to be criticizing Chinese human rights so openly. If it wants to do that, then do so through official channels through the UN. China respects the UN, to some extent anyway. But it certainly doesn't appreciate any nation criticizing it so publicly. This is a cultural issue Canada is obviously unaware of. Even Chinese who don't particularly like their government will back it against criticism from abroad out of offence (they interpret it as colonialist interference in their internal affairs, even if they agree with the criticism in principle). It's really an issue of national pride and face, a very big issue in Chinese culture.
I'm not saying Canada ought not to criticize China. I'm just saying, do so through official channnels only. That's just how things work in the Chinese mind.
As for the 'fallen gang' (I'm in China, so I need to watch my spelling if you know what I mean), I would still be wary of them. On the one hand, the govt has hit them hard, beyond anything reasonable. On the other, from what I understand, the 'fallen gang' has its own agenda in China too, and is not all that innocent either.
As for trade, I think more trade with China would be a good thing as a way to promote more cultural exchanges between China and Canada. Certainly if Canada decides to play hardball with China, China can play just as hard. In that way, Canada would lose any opprotunity to promote more cultural relations. Before China can witness any great economic or political attainments, it must first undergo radical cultural changes. Honestly, the Chinese people are simply not ready, on a cultural level, for the rapid political changes expected of them from the West. Heck, they're still recovering from the Opium wars on a cultural and psychological level, believe it or not. They still have far to go to forgive Japan, and are naturally suspicious of foreign intervention in their nation (it reminds them of their past). From this perspective, when we criticise them, they think of their past, and we look like real hypocrites.
Just my perspective.
Cultural traditions like the avoidance of naming an injustice for what it is in the name of assuring one's own well-being within the social structure being criticized is one thing, but scurrying under a banner raised to cultural tradition is quite similar to the Islamist view of cartoons and interpretations of the Quran that offend....
The western mind prizes the material, objectifies values in symbols that are bought sold and traded without appreciating the significance of this behavior. Westerners are guilty of many grave injustices to the planet and the people of many nations who've never known a degree of prosperity or "freedom" that the westerner takes for granted. Part of that freedom is naming an injustice as an injustice. Is the cultural "value" the "currency" of propriety a means to enhancing or erroding the perceptions of Chinese folk when they compare east and west? If a nation of people realize an increase in their individual well-being and quality of life through adopting western trade and commerce, doesn't it seem appropriate that the manifestation of "freedom" that comes with self-reliance through trade is capable of establishing includes reevaluating some cultural traditions?
The western mind prizes the material, objectifies values in symbols that are bought sold and traded without appreciating the significance of this behavior. Westerners are guilty of many grave injustices to the planet and the people of many nations who've never known a degree of prosperity or "freedom" that the westerner takes for granted. Part of that freedom is naming an injustice as an injustice. Is the cultural "value" the "currency" of propriety a means to enhancing or erroding the perceptions of Chinese folk when they compare east and west? If a nation of people realize an increase in their individual well-being and quality of life through adopting western trade and commerce, doesn't it seem appropriate that the manifestation of "freedom" that comes with self-reliance through trade is capable of establishing includes reevaluating some cultural traditions?
I never said I agreed with this Chinese perspective. I'm a Canadian myself. I'm simply saying that it's there. Obviously if our way of handling Islamists promotes bombings, then perhaps we ought to re-evaluate how we approach them. Same applies with China. If our way of handling China in the last few decades has achieved little, then why re-invent the wheel. Let's try something else! Sure, criticize China, but do so through official channels. In this way, China could listen to Canada without having it's dirty laundry broadcast across town'. It will be more willing to listen, and this will probably achieve greater resulsts in the long run. If necessary, Canada could even try to pass UN resolutions against China. But if opposed, then Canada should not face China unilaterally. In so doing, it comes across as an arrogant, loud, obnoxious western foreigner trying to meddle in the affairs of China.
Whether we agree with this is irrelevent. This is how it's done on this side of the Pacific. Sorry, but we're not on your side of the Pacific here, and when in Rome... pardon the clishe.
It would be interesting to weigh the consequences of a total ban on Chinese goods. No traffic either way for Canadians or Canadian companies. I know China is flooding the world with cheap textiles, sporting goods, electronics, furniture and more. A lot of this is closing down domestic enterprise everywhere. If we took a stand on principle and kicked China out of our marketplace would it be an overall win for the Canadian economy?
I agree, if you want to criticize China's human right, do it in constructive way that promotes improvement.
Harper's criticism of China isn't based on a legitimate concern for human rights, otherwise he would be criticizing the American government too which has a far worse record right now than China.
Harper is making what he believes to be political hay. I'm happy to see such an insincere and hypocritical effort fall flat.
I can also tell from the responses here, who actually knows something about China and who doesn't. Machjo's comments are about how to approach China are bang on.
Harper's criticism of China isn't based on a legitimate concern for human rights, otherwise he would be criticizing the American government too which has a far worse record right now than China.
Harper is making what he believes to be political hay. I'm happy to see such an insincere and hypocritical effort fall flat.
I can also tell from the responses here, who actually knows something about China and who doesn't. Machjo's comments are about how to approach China are bang on.
It's great to see Harper take the stand. Anyone who knows anything about China is aware of the longstanding and growing international concerns about what it does at home and what it encourages abroad as far as human rights are concerned and resource management. China needs to be curbed. I wonder what Harper has up his sleeve. To publicly pull the tail of the tiger is seemingly risky business. There's more here afoot than meets the eye.
Earth_as_One
So if cultural imperatives like “One shouldn’t speak out about human rights abuses by the communist regime in Beijing… “because we must always show reverence and respect for our nation’s leaders……” are the rule of the day when it comes to China, how does one let an oppressive regime know that its human rights record is unsatisfactory?
Quietly whispered in the washroom at the U.N.”?
We’ve been conditioned to accept that criticism leveled at the oppressive regime in Jerusalem is the same as anti-Semitism….so the effectiveness of declaring displeasure at disproportionately brutal responses to rocket attacks and Israelis kidnapped by Palestinian’s “quietly” continues while people die….
Does the same rule apply here Earth_as_One?
“Oh no we can’t have any overt criticism of the government in Jerusalem spoken aloud, that would be offensive and counter-productive since our criticism will be dismissed as anti-Semitism….”
Kindly cease and desist posting your negative criticisms regarding the Israeli government…you’re not working to solve the problem only inflaming the situation….
I suppose we could all just be quiet about human rights abuses and let the abusive dynamic unfold however the strongest and most prepared to oppress and abuse have their way, then when there aren’t any more rights to protect for anyone we can be self-satisfied that we didn’t offend anyone….
Am I on the right track here Earth_as_One?
We can continue to empower the abusers by providing them the resources needed to reinforce and entrench the systemic flouting of human rights…i.e. we can continue to play the “trade-game” with China and we can happily accept the continued arming and financing of Israel by the U.S.?
Are you suggesting that saying something is counter-productive in eliciting self-evaluation by the abusing regime and besides there’s benefits that accrue to those in support of oppressive regimes like mounting wealth (China) and consolidating the Jewish vote come election time (America)….
If not saying something is the more diplomatic route, then surely the investment dollars anxiously waiting in the coffers of the Beijing government should be welcomed in Canada (Athabaska Tar Sands) despite the fact that this money might well have been better spent in China to ease the suffering of those languishing under a totalitarian regime.
We certainly wouldn’t want to say … “Nope sorry China, we won’t conduct business nor permit investment from your nation due to your continuing intransigence regarding human rights….”
How could that be interpreted as anything other than a “cultural-slight”?
Our criticisms should be couched in fluffy clouds of rhetoric that have no sharp edges, best expressed through a nod and a glance but better yet left completely unspoken?
While people die at the hands of murderous oppressors the world over we simply shrug our shoulders roll our eyes and look the other way?
What is the magical nuance that differentiates a criticism of human rights abuses by any government as a cultural insult on one occasion but renders that criticism acceptable on some other occasion?
Or if you’re suggesting we just say and do nothing why do you bother attempting to incite passion regarding the Palestinian situation?
Machjo: “It's really an issue of national pride and face, a very big issue in Chinese culture.”
If saving face as cultural imperative supersedes the importance of rights in Chinese culture then why is anyone bothering with discussing this issue?
Just ignore it all…..
In other words in order for institutions like the UN to function, everyone has to be pulling in the same direction. Obviously the UN has cooperation problems which has rendered it ineffective.
The US just started a war based on lies and deceptions. It now routinely violates Geneva conventions, international laws... The UN could issue a condemnation if the US doesn't veto it. I guess that's China's out card too.
Yes China has its problems, but as far as human right's is concerned, its moving in the right direction, albeit at a snail's pace. That's one of the benefits of rapid economic growth.
China's rapid industrialization creates new problems. Sweatshops, pollution, mass extinction event... But Canada is also contributer
to these problems.
I would like to know how is it Harper can see China's flaws so clearly yetunable to see America's. To what standard do we hold other nations?