Canadian soldier killed defending our freedom

JonB2004

Council Member
Mar 10, 2006
1,188
0
36
http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2006/09/29/soldier-afghanistan.html

What a waste. He was out there west of Kandahar not defending our freedom and spreading the Bush doctrine to Afghanistan. Lets bring our troops home. More will die. And it's not to protect us. That soldier did not die for us. If Canada wasn't in this war we would be as safe. Maybe safer. Because now we are making enemies.


Pull troops out of Afghanistan = Plane flying into building, people dying, etc.
 

Curiosity

Senate Member
Jul 30, 2005
7,326
138
63
California
I remember the U.S. were insulted by Canadians for years...for pulling out of Vietnam ...

Now you are suggesting it for your own military?
*******************************************************************

Regrets and sympathy for the fallen soldier - and courage for his loved ones.
 

BitWhys

what green dots?
Apr 5, 2006
3,157
15
38
Pull troops out of Afghanistan = Plane flying into building, people dying, etc.

bull****

Those conditions may be repeated some other time and other place, but not Afghanistan as long as Kabul doesn't fall.
 

mabudon

Metal King
Mar 15, 2006
1,339
30
48
Golden Horseshoe, Ontario
Gotta agree with BitWhys on his evaluation of your comment there, JonB, that is so meaningless it hurts my head thinking about it... it's amazing how many folks have picked up almost subliminally on Dubyas CONSTANT references to "nine-eleven" and how such meaningless platitudes seem to carry such weight with so many folks

And to address the topic of the thread, another pointless waste, I am sorry that there are still more to come and that no matter how many peoples lives we throw on the fire, nothing will be changed.

Reminds me of something a comedian said not too many years ago, about how when WE were young, videos games were just like real life (and in this case, our "mission" in Afghanistan); there's no end to it, no reward, it just keeps getting harder and faster til you lose all your men and die
 

Zzarchov

House Member
Aug 28, 2006
4,600
100
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No troops in afghanistan fighting WAR = No place in NATO

No place in NATO plus small, wealthy country = Conquered or violently pressured by more militarily powerful nations.

Canada is not special, we don't have a magical power to keep us safer than any other group of people in the world. We aren't some genetic super-race impervious to the machinations of others.

We signed onto NATO because it keeps us safe. We can't bail out when its our turn to pay the bill.

Thats like signing up for a carpool then not picking up anyone else on your day.
 

gc

Electoral Member
May 9, 2006
931
20
18
No troops in afghanistan fighting WAR = No place in NATO
Canada is not special, we don't have a magical power to keep us safer than any other group of people in the world. We aren't some genetic super-race impervious to the machinations of others.

If I can play devil's advocate here, who do you think might attack us? And how do you think other nations (or the UN) will respond? Other non-NATO members have been attacked and other countries (including Canada) helped out.
 

Johnny Utah

Council Member
Mar 11, 2006
1,434
1
38
http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2006/09/29/soldier-afghanistan.html

What a waste. He was out there west of Kandahar not defending our freedom and spreading the Bush doctrine to Afghanistan. Lets bring our troops home. More will die. And it's not to protect us. That soldier did not die for us. If Canada wasn't in this war we would be as safe. Maybe safer. Because now we are making enemies.
So, you would rather cut and run having the deaths of the Soldiers before him being in vain? It's pretty easy for you to sit here and blah, blah about how this isn't our War and it's because of the Bush doctrine because you seem to forget Canadians also died on 9/11. The Soldiers who died knew what they signed up for. If Canada wasn't in this War we would be safe? You really have no clue do you? Get a clue because you're opinion would be different if the Liberals were still in power and the United States wasn't in Afghanistan, Afghanistan is a NATO Mission understand?
 
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MattUK

Electoral Member
Aug 11, 2006
119
0
16
UK
So you go with the Bush method then Johnny? If you think someone might attack you or there is a slight chance that someone could cause you harm, you crush them. Well, its about time that we crushed Iran as well then. And what about Israel? If not a military threat, they have a Nuclear reactor that is so old it should have been de-commissioned about 10 years ago. If that goes pop, its a real problem.

And hey, whilst you and Mr Bush are at it, you have various other countries, Jordan and the like, you may even be able to get more oil for your stockpile after you have attacked them.

Of course, non of the inhabitants of these countries are going to hate you for attacking them, which means that you are quite safe for the rest of your life. In fact, they will prbably thank you and Mr Bush for destroying their lives and killing tens of thousands of their countrymen and spread blessings wherever you go.

Wars only start where democracy failes. War is for people who cant fight with their brains. Bush is a perfect example of this.

I ask you a simple question. Who is the most powerful nation in the world? I will give you a clue, its not the UK or Canada and its not the USA.
 

CDNBear

Custom Troll
Sep 24, 2006
43,839
207
63
Ontario
http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2006/09/29/soldier-afghanistan.html

What a waste. He was out there west of Kandahar not defending our freedom and spreading the Bush doctrine to Afghanistan. Lets bring our troops home. More will die. And it's not to protect us. That soldier did not die for us. If Canada wasn't in this war we would be as safe. Maybe safer. Because now we are making enemies.

Dude suck it up and give it a rest.

If you really think Canada should be just the way you want, move to Quebec and join the Laurentien Highlanders. You guys can all hug and chant, while hiding your collective heads in the sand.
 

CDNBear

Custom Troll
Sep 24, 2006
43,839
207
63
Ontario
No troops in afghanistan fighting WAR = No place in NATO

No place in NATO plus small, wealthy country = Conquered or violently pressured by more militarily powerful nations.

Canada is not special, we don't have a magical power to keep us safer than any other group of people in the world. We aren't some genetic super-race impervious to the machinations of others.

We signed onto NATO because it keeps us safe. We can't bail out when its our turn to pay the bill.

Thats like signing up for a carpool then not picking up anyone else on your day.

Very well said Zzarchov,

Hey Gonzo, if you can at all let fact, not fiction into your head, allow this piece of sanity in and let it sit around for a while before you flush it. Dismissing it as tripe, as I'm sure you will.
 

MattUK

Electoral Member
Aug 11, 2006
119
0
16
UK
Cant believe you think that either the North Atlantic Treaty, or the United Nations work. You need to let something into your head let it muster, realise you dont understand it, and dismiss it as too complicated.

Iraq was the perfect example of how the UN does not work. UN say no, so its done anyway. Excellent power and control showed by the UN there. And how can any group calling itself the "United" nations allow certain member countries to have a veto to overrule anyone? Its pathetic.

If you think they work, you keep your head down there in the sand mate, its best you dont join the real world.

And no, I am not a liberal leftie loony either. But, until you can explain to me how ATTACKING someone means that they wont want to attack you, I think you are in the wrong.
 

#juan

Hall of Fame Member
Aug 30, 2005
18,326
119
63
We can cut through a bit of the emotional BS here by looking at exactly what is going on in Afghanistan. There is no goal, no boundary we have to reach, no line we have to cross in order to win. There is no winning. Troops will be needed forever to protect the pipeline---remember the pipeline? Canada has served NATO very well, and when this organization was created, it was a gathering of nations, Belgium, http://www.britannica.com/eb/topic?idxStructId=91796&typeId=13Canada, http://www.britannica.com/eb/topic?idxStructId=157748&typeId=13Denmark, http://www.britannica.com/eb/topic?idxStructId=215768&typeId=13France, http://www.britannica.com/eb/topic?idxStructId=281306&typeId=13Iceland, http://www.britannica.com/eb/topic?idxStructId=297474&typeId=13Italy, http://www.britannica.com/eb/topic?idxStructId=352260&typeId=13Luxembourg, http://www.britannica.com/eb/topic?idxStructId=409956&typeId=13The Netherlands, http://www.britannica.com/eb/topic?idxStructId=420283&typeId=13Norway, http://www.britannica.com/eb/topic?idxStructId=471439&typeId=13Portugal, the http://www.britannica.com/eb/topic?idxStructId=615557&typeId=13United Kingdom, and the http://www.britannica.com/eb/topic?idxStructId=616563&typeId=13United States. who had borders on the north Atlantic, joined together for mutual protection. What the hell is the North Atlantic Treaty Organization doing in the Middle East defending American oil interests? The "war on terror" is a fool's game that can't be won, but we will fight it till our country gags on the phoney premise that this war was started on.
 

Tim

New Member
I agree with you Gonzo. Canadians better wake up and smell the coffee real soon. What few freedoms we once had are disappearing fast. Harper is just as much a nazi as Bush is.

Those poor soldiers may think they are protecting us, but nothing could be further from the truth. They are keeping the poppy fields available for the CIA drug trade.
 

MattUK

Electoral Member
Aug 11, 2006
119
0
16
UK
Oddly. Had Bush and Blair said "Hey people of the world, we've kinda heard that this Saddam Hussein bloke is a bit of a ar$e. Kinda horrid to the ordinary peeps of Iraq, and we dont think its right that he should be able to kill thousands of people unchecked, so, as long as you guys dont mind, we are gonna pop over there and help these poor Iraqi blighters out a bit" I would have supported the attack from day one. Should have killed him in GW1.
 

GentleGiant

New Member
Aug 31, 2006
36
0
6
Ottawa Ontario
This issue has nothing to do with Oil or Pipelines. It has everything to do with terrorism and a lack of democracy which the No Democracy Party is a part of.

For years Afghanistan was the main location for terrorist training camps and drug lords. The stupid Lieberal Government in Canada allowed thousands of these terrorists and drug lords into our country without any security or background checks. Canada is now on the list of targets by terrorists and soon it will occur here.

In the meantime our brave men and women who signed up to become military personnel KNOW that no matter where they are posted or whatever their mission is their lives are on the line. This has everything to do with the safety and security of our nation and others which the lefty's do not believe in. The NDP believes in women and children being beheaded on Saturday mornings on soccer fields in Afghanistan. That is what the Taliban did and the NDP supports that by their idiot leader Osama Bin Layton.

Canada is an integral part of NATO and it is NATO, NOT the USA, who is making these kinds of decisions in AFghanistan. Anyone who states that it is George Bush who by the way is a pretty good President unlike Billy Clinton who believes in cowardly activities and lying along with sex with any female, sanctioned this activity and criticizes him for it is 100% wrong. I do not always agree with GW Bush but he is the number one Police Chief on this planet and without him and his fellow Americans Canadians would be getting up every morning standing up and shouting " HEIL HITLER" and speaking German.

Far too many folks just don't and won't ever get it right.

Blah Blah Blah is all they do based on nothing.

Ho Hum we are stuck with them.
 

CDNBear

Custom Troll
Sep 24, 2006
43,839
207
63
Ontario
Cant believe you think that either the North Atlantic Treaty, or the United Nations work. You need to let something into your head let it muster, realise you dont understand it, and dismiss it as too complicated.

Iraq was the perfect example of how the UN does not work. UN say no, so its done anyway. Excellent power and control showed by the UN there. And how can any group calling itself the "United" nations allow certain member countries to have a veto to overrule anyone? Its pathetic.

If you think they work, you keep your head down there in the sand mate, its best you dont join the real world.

And no, I am not a liberal leftie loony either. But, until you can explain to me how ATTACKING someone means that they wont want to attack you, I think you are in the wrong.

I will agree that the UN is a toothless kitten, with the workings of a broken watch. But, as a member of NATO, we have a DUTY to fulfil our obligations, period. As has been pointed out several times now, NATO is incharge in Afganistan. All you BUSH haters latch onto is American involvement,, ooo, bad.

Just because you don't like the States, is not a reasonable excuse to not be involved.

You think I should remove my head from the sand, I say you should keep yours right where it is, tucked up tight to your prostate, it's muffling the sounds of you cowardly wimperings. I find nothing complicated in fulfilling our international obligations, it's honourable and in the end will put some credablity back in our nation.

Thank god we ousted your ilk in the last election.

Shouldn't you be at the Piere Elliot memorial, mess up Canada convention, instead of here, trying in vain to sound intellectually pacifistic.
 

Curiosity

Senate Member
Jul 30, 2005
7,326
138
63
California
CDN

Canadians are happy Bush is in office - when I first started posting on forums, Canadians had nobody to rest their anger on - Bubba was busily travelling around the world playing the Bubbla Loves You Game...and
all Canadians could tell me why they hated the U.S. was "your foreign policy" and other such unexplained vague generalizations not bearing much fruit ...

So little George of nook-yew-lar fame choked on a pretzel, had an much touted alcohol and coke problem in college won the election (both of them even though Canadians argue that as well), and off we were to read all of the recycled hate only now there was a target square in the middle of the hate board.

I honestly believe if Canada continues down this path of deep divide, it will happen, and for that very reason, I am concerned for the future of Canada unless they can rustle up some wealthy trading partners
for their wonderful natural resources and manufacturing products.

Think doing business with the evil USA is bad? Name another country of preference...hmmmmmmm.

Canadians did not join the U.S. in Vietnam, in fact made an issue of how bad the U.S. was during that conflict, yet continued to do business with the evil empire. Yet continued harping to this day about VietNam mistakes.

Canadians could opt out of their commitments in Afghanistan as well. Canada is an autonomous country and it is governed by the wishes of the people (isn't it?).

Cut and run sounds unlike Canada, but it has changed in recent times.
 

CDNBear

Custom Troll
Sep 24, 2006
43,839
207
63
Ontario
I agree with you Gonzo. Canadians better wake up and smell the coffee real soon. What few freedoms we once had are disappearing fast. Harper is just as much a nazi as Bush is.

Those poor soldiers may think they are protecting us, but nothing could be further from the truth. They are keeping the poppy fields available for the CIA drug trade.

Tim, you have absolutely no f**king idea what a nazi is. You and your ilk, that throw that title around, without the slightest thought as to its relevance. Do yourselves a disservice. It only goes to prove the old saying...

It is better to be thought a fool, then to open ones mouth and remove all doubt.

I don't agree with GW's foriegn policy or crusader like attitude, nor Harpers stance on Native issues and marrital rights, etc. But to call someone a nazi, for the reasons you dislike either man is absolutely ridiculous.
 

earth_as_one

Time Out
Jan 5, 2006
7,933
53
48
Except of course that would be a lie too. Not Hussein being an ar$e, but the perception that before the war, Hussein was busy killing thousands of innocent Iraqis each year.

The fact is before the war, Iraq was relatively peaceful. Sure it was oppressed and run by a brutal dictator, but as long as Iraqi citizens didn't get involved in conspiracies to overthrow Hussein, they were left alone.

The worst Hussein ever did was in response to insurgent revolts at the end of the Iran/Iraq war and right after the end of Gulf War I.

America's reaction to Iraq's use of chemical weapons to crush a Kurdish rebellion in 1988, was to make speeches in the UN defending Hussein and continued trade in CW technology. Europe imposed an arms embargo, which the US ignored.

At the end of Gulf War I, many Shiite and Kurdish soldiers returned to their villages, heavily armed and unhappy with Hussein. The American government told these people they would support their efforts to overthrow Hussein.

When revolts broke out, the US, UK and France did supply air cover for the Kurds by imposing a nothern no-fly zone in violation of international law since it was not authorized by the UN. In the south, the world stood on the sidelines as Hussein crushed the Shiite revolt.

Invading Iraq during these times could have been justified on humanitarian grounds. But these events took place in the 1980's and early 90's.

Propaganda during the run up to the war often referenced these events out of context to manufacture a perception that Hussein was busy killing fellow Iraqi's up until the US led invasion. Anyone who has this perception should re-examine what you think you know about Iraq and Hussein.

The fact is, Iraqi's are much worse off now after the US led invasion/occupation. That's not a statement in praise of Hussein, but an observation on how bad the Iraq war has been on innocent Iraqis.

Look at this Whitehouse Press release:

Fact Sheet
Office of the White House Press Secretary
Washington, DC
April 4, 2003

Life Under Saddam Hussein: Past Repression and Atrocities by Saddam Hussein's Regime

122 political prisoners were executed at Abu Ghraib prison in February/March 2000;
23 political prisoners were executed at Abu Ghraib prison in October 2001; and
At least 130 Iraqi women were beheaded between June 2000 and April 2001.

http://www.state.gov/p/nea/rls/19675.htm

Read that press release and after cutting through all the BS about events which occurred more than three years before the US led invasion, the provable facts are that during the three years preceding the US led invasion, Iraq maybe executed about 175 people, most of whom were convicted of capital crimes.

Go back another 6 years and the number rises to about 2500 people. Most of these people were killed as a result of their involvement in a failed American plot to overthrow Hussein in 1998.

Since the US led invasion:

About 30,000 Iraqi soldiers died defending their country from foreign invaders

Collateral damage, increased violence and civil war claimed the lives of at least another 100,000 innocent Iraqi civilians.

More Americans have died in this war than were killed in 9/11.

Iran has filled the power vacuum left by Hussein.

Anyway you look at this the Iraq war has created far more problems than it solved, for Iraqi's and the rest of the world.

Back on topic, how does this relate to Afghanistan?

Many Muslims saw the original Afghanistan operation as justified. The Taliban were given a chance to hand over the people responsible for 9/11, but refused. The resulting invasion/occupation of Afghanistan was not seen as an attack on Muslims, but a form of justice.

But most Muslims see the atrocities committed by the west against their fellow Muslims in Iraq as an unjustified attack on innocent Muslims. As a result they want to take up arms against the foreign invaders they believe have raped, tortured and murdered their fellow Muslims in Iraq.

The Iraq war has completely changed Muslim perceptions about foreign military forces in Afghanistan. As a result, the make up of the insurgents in Afghanistan has become more international. Likely nations like Iran and Syria who see their security dependant on keeping foreign militaries bogged down in Iraq and Afghanistan, have been clandestinely arming anti-foreigner insurgent movements in Iraq and Afghanistan.

So the question now is why is Canada in Afghanistan?

Is this war still about 9/11 and reconstruction or has this war evolved into a war without end for the purposes of wearing down western military might?

If this war is about wearing down our military, then we should definitely limit the scope of our involvement.

If this war is about winning hearts and minds, then Canada should take care not to offend Muslims and make certain that any Canadian soldier who violates the rules of war is brought to justice. We should also take extreme care to keep collateral damage to an absolute minimum.


Our participation in Afghanstan should be sen as support for Afghan civilians, not American foreign policy. I do not want Muslims to think Canada's involvement in Afghanistan as support for what the US has done in Iraq or its violations of international law, human rights and Geneva conventions.

Since our leaders refuse to condemn what the US has done, its a safe bet most Muslims think we support American war crimes and atrocities.