Canada inches toward private medicine

I think not

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TORONTO - Canadians have long prized their public healthcare system as a reflection of national values, and have looked askance at the inequities of private medical care in the United States.

But now that the Canadian Supreme Court has ruled private health insurers should be allowed to compete with the public system, the future of Canadian healthcare is a question mark.

In the short term, the decision may light a fire under provincial governments to improve chronic problems, especially long wait times for surgeries, tests, and treatments. Some experts believe the ruling could eventually spawn a parallel, private healthcare system here.

"For our government, it's a very strong indictment of the way they've handled the system," says Dr. Albert Schumacher, president of the Canadian Medical Association. "I hope it will move us forward in the debate. 'Private' has always been used by politicians as a very evil word, associated with America and for-profit. But it's not necessarily so."

It all started with a disgruntled doctor, Dr. Jacques Chaoulli, and his patient, George Zeliotis, a retired salesman from Quebec who waited nearly a year for a hip replacement.

In a split decision, the Supreme Court in June found that waiting lists for medical treatments were unacceptably long, causing some patients to suffer or die. The judges struck down a Quebec law banning private health insurance for procedures covered by Medicare. Patients like Mr. Zeliotis should be allowed to go outside the public system and pay for timely medical treatments through private insurance, the court said.

"There are tens of thousands of Mr. Zeliotis out there languishing on waiting lists," Dr. Schumacher says. His patients, for example, go to nearby Detroit and pay out-of-pocket to get CAT scans in six days instead of waiting six months in Canada.

By the end of this year, the federal government has promised to establish benchmarks for "medically acceptable wait times" for treatment of cancer, heart disease, and other ailments. The government is already spending billions to try to reduce waiting lists.

Technically, the court ruling applies only to Quebec, and the court on Thursday granted the government's request to delay its decision for a year. But Chaoulli v. Quebec will eventually ripple through the entire country.

"No minister of health can say, 'We're going to deny you a right that exists in the province of Quebec,' " Monahan says. "As a matter of political reality, it's applicable in all provinces."

The man who sparked this revolution was often dismissed as a gadfly during the years he spent fighting the system. Dr.

Chaoulli once went on a hunger strike to protest fines levied on him for charging fees. Chaoulli represented himself in court, and his rough yet impassioned arguments struck home with the court.

"I am so happy," Chaoulli says. "Sooner or later, the medical monopoly will be stopped."

He predicts the emergence of a private healthcare system existing alongside the public one, as in Australia or New Zealand. Meanwhile, he is busy lecturing conservative US groups about the dangers of socialized medicine.

"Libertarians and conservatives do regard him as a hero," says Michael Cannon, director of health policy studies at the Cato Institute in Washington, a libertarian think tank. "He's going to be a very influential figure moving forward in Canada, in the US, and abroad."

Cannon hopes Chaoulli's victory dampens the ardor for Canadian-style healthcare in the US.

For many Canadians, private healthcare wears the scarlet A - for America.

"There is no political support for American-style healthcare," says Michael McBane, coordinator of the Canadian Health Coalition, a healthcare advocacy group. He says he hopes provinces will toughen laws to prevent private insurers from entering the market.

Allowing people to buy private health insurance violates fundamental rights, McBane says, because not everyone will be able to afford it.

"You can't discriminate based on the size of your wallet on something as important as healthcare," McBane says. "I would say this is an aberration and the democratic process will correct it."

The public appears ambivalent about the ruling. A new poll conducted for the Canadian Medical Association finds that 52 percent of Canadians view the decision "favorably," and even more said it will reduce wait times. But when asked if the ruling would weaken the public system, 54 percent agreed, saying it was "a bad thing."

Allyson Lange, a federal government employee, says she would support a parallel, private health system but doesn't expect dramatic changes.

"There would be too much opposition," Ms. Lange says. "We see a lot of what goes on in the US - people go broke because they have a health issue."
 

Jay

Executive Branch Member
Jan 7, 2005
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It was only a matter of time before common sense leaked into the system....
 

I think not

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Re: RE: Canada inches toward private medicine

Jay said:
It was only a matter of time before common sense leaked into the system....

The people may be given the option to obtain private health care, but for those who do, does it mean a decrease in their taxes? Probably not.

This is the exact same system in Greece, state run medical with the "option" to go private. Because the state run system is so ridiculous, the people who opt to go private end up paying for both, because they are not given the "option" to pay for either or.
 

MMMike

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Mar 21, 2005
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Re: RE: Canada inches toward private medicine

Jay said:
It was only a matter of time before common sense leaked into the system....

That's debatable. Despite this court ruling and the reasons for this ruling, Canadas health minister & most provincial health ministers are still maintaining the status quo, with the requisite swipes at "american-style" healthcare.

I don't see much common sense there. Even Ralph Klein has been a dissapointment, underwhelming with his announced changes to the provincial medicare system.
 

Reverend Blair

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Apr 3, 2004
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RE: Canada inches toward

It isn't common sense though, Jay. It's pure, unadulterated bullshit. They underfunded the public system...from educating health-care providers to the administration at the very top...and now that it has fallen apart (or at least is perceived to have fallen apart, largely due to op-ed columns like this one) they want to kill public health care once and for all.

Look at the per capita cost for delivering health care though. The US is the highest in the world. Even the publically provided facets of their system (those paid for out of your taxes) are several times higher than ours. Now look at the quality issues. Poor people in the US get substandard care. 40 million Americans have no insurance and no, it isn't because they choose not to.

Provisions in NAFTA will force us to adopt a US-style system if we go down this road. Once health care becomes a commodity, it is no different than any other commodity.

In the end, it will cost you more, Jay. A lot more. The care you get may or may not improve, depending on your financial situation and the benefits package your employer gives you. For millions of Canadians, the quality of care will sink even further though.
 

MMMike

Council Member
Mar 21, 2005
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Re: RE: Canada inches toward private medicine

Jay said:
It was only a matter of time before common sense leaked into the system....

That's debatable. Despite this court ruling and the reasons for this ruling, Canadas health minister & most provincial health ministers are still maintaining the status quo, with the requisite swipes at "american-style" healthcare.

I don't see much common sense there. Even Ralph Klein has been a dissapointment, underwhelming with his announced changes to the provincial medicare system.
 

Jay

Executive Branch Member
Jan 7, 2005
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Reverend Blair said:
It isn't common sense though, Jay.

Yes it is.
Reverend Blair said:
It's pure, unadulterated bullshit.

No it's not.

Reverend Blair said:
They underfunded the public system...from educating health-care providers to the administration at the very top...and now that it has fallen apart


Proving (once and for all) the government can not be trusted to run health care. Simple.

Reverend Blair said:
(or at least is perceived to have fallen apart, largely due to op-ed columns like this one) they want to kill public health care once and for all.

The perceptions aren’t article based; they are real life situations faced by everyday people. Right now in London, we have 20 000 people without family doctors...the solution announced today...they are adding 2 more doctors to the pool....that is about 4000 patients, the rest of us get the walk-in clinics.....to bad so sad they say, so screw them. I don't need or want this system, like I don't want a car that only runs sometimes, and can't be trusted to get me to work.

Reverend Blair said:
Look at the per capita cost for delivering health care though. The US is the highest in the world. Even the publically provided facets of their system (those paid for out of your taxes) are several times higher than ours. Now look at the quality issues. Poor people in the US get substandard care. 40 million Americans have no insurance and no, it isn't because they choose not to.

A blended system is the best approach...it keeps costs down for governments, and gives choice to consumers.

If poor people get substandard healthcare, it's a better start than everyone getting substandard care….I have faith that this isn’t a “the sky is going to fall” situation, it really depends on how the government decides to help poor people manage their healthcare needs.

Reverend Blair said:
In the end, it will cost you more, Jay. A lot more. The care you get may or may not improve, depending on your financial situation and the benefits package your employer gives you.

And people accuse me of only caring about money....geesh.

I don't mind paying more for good healthcare, and paying taxes to help the poor.


Maybe everything is great in Manitoba, but it isn't here in Ontario, and I'm convinced that if Ontario was allowed to run its healthcare like it is supposed too, we wouldn't have a socialist system, we would have a blended system. Things are not good in the system, so we are changing it....big deal.

Maybe ITN could help us, and let us know what his healthcare insurance costs him, or give us an idea of how much it costs the average house hold in NY State to pay for their private insurance....
 

Reverend Blair

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Apr 3, 2004
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Proving (once and for all) the government can not be trusted to run health care. Simple.

Actually they were bowing to pressure from privatye health care interests in the US.

The perceptions aren’t article based; they are real life situations faced by everyday people. Right now in London, we have 20 000 people without family doctors...the solution announced today...they are adding 2 more doctors to the pool....that is about 4000 patients, the rest of us get the walk-in clinics.....to bad so sad they say, so screw them. I don't need or want this system, like I don't want a car that only runs sometimes, and can't be trusted to get me to work.

The panic they seek to spread comes right out of the right wing, corporate controlled press, Jay. They aren't looking for real solutions. If they were, they wouldn't be afraid of real discussion of the Romanow Report. That report provides real solutions within a public system that would still keep costs lower then per capita costs in other countries.

A blended system is the best approach...it keeps costs down for governments, and gives choice to consumers.

Ask somebody in the US locked into a bad HMO because of their employer how much choice they have.

As it is, and I realise that you don't really understand this, we already have a blended system. Most doctors are in private practice. What we have is a single payer system...the government pays.

And people accuse me of only caring about money....geesh.

The US system is unsustainable because of its cost though. It's been an issue in the US for years.

Maybe ITN could help us, and let us know what his healthcare insurance costs him, or give us an idea of how much it costs the average house hold in NY State to pay for their private insurance....

Maybe ITN could provide per capita numbers instead of cherry-picking what he (and you) considers to be the most favourable for his argument.
 

Vanni Fucci

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Dec 26, 2004
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Re: RE: Canada inches toward

Reverend Blair said:
In the end, it will cost you more, Jay. A lot more. The care you get may or may not improve, depending on your financial situation and the benefits package your employer gives you. For millions of Canadians, the quality of care will sink even further though.

...and I can hardly wait until companies start to lay people off because they can't afford to pay for their employees' healthcare insurance...

...man oh man, won't that be a f*cking treat... :evil:
 

I think not

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Reverend Blair said:
Maybe ITN could provide per capita numbers instead of cherry-picking what he (and you) considers to be the most favourable for his argument.

Actually ITN doesn't give a flying f*ck, because whatever ITN says it will fall on socialist deaf ears. Please continue.
 

Jay

Executive Branch Member
Jan 7, 2005
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I doubt ITN has a favourable argument for a system that has no effect on him....

I still think he should help me out with those numbers though.... :wink:
 

I think not

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Re: RE: Canada inches toward private medicine

Jay said:
I doubt ITN has a favourable argument for a system that has no effect on him....

I still think he should help me out with those numbers though.... :wink:

I pay $187.34 a month, being single, a family would pay about $570.00 a month for the type of insurance I have. That's PPO, you go anywhere you want to go across the US, covers international travel with a $500 deductible.

What it doesn't cover is dental and eyeglasses.
 

Jay

Executive Branch Member
Jan 7, 2005
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Thanks.

Our universal system doesn't cover dental or eyeglasses either.
 

mrmom2

Senate Member
Mar 8, 2005
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:lol: :lol: 570 a month 8O Feck thats damn near my mortgage payment a month :x I could see a lot of people going without health coverage 8O Throw that on what we pay in taxes and were nothing but slaves for the goverment :evil:
 

I think not

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mrmom2 said:
:lol: :lol: 570 a month 8O Feck thats damn near my mortgage payment a month :x I could see a lot of people going without health coverage 8O Throw that on what we pay in taxes and were nothing but slaves for the goverment :evil:

That's if you buy the insurance on your own, and it's tax deductible of your gross pay anyways. And thats for New York. It's less elsewhere, not that I am saying it isn't much. Whereas I may not consider it much for others it is a small fortune in other parts of the country. And I get $6,500 a year back from taxes because of the interest deduction on my mortgage and real estate taxes. So as far as I am concerned, it's free.
 

no1important

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Jan 9, 2003
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RE: Canada inches toward

I read some insurance companies in Alberta were ready to sell priviate insurance. But its all on hold for a year now. I wonder if the feds will try to do anything in that year?
 

Reverend Blair

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Vanni said:
...and I can hardly wait until companies start to lay people off because they can't afford to pay for their employees' healthcare insurance...

Companies in the US, most notably GM, have already cited the cost of private health insurance as a reason for losses and resultant lay-offs. Canada's health care system is an economic advantage in such instances.

ITN said:
I pay $187.34 a month, being single, a family would pay about $570.00 a month for the type of insurance I have. That's PPO, you go anywhere you want to go across the US, covers international travel with a $500 deductible.


Wow, that's really steep. How much more would it cost somebody with a pre-existing medical condition? Would that person be able to get coverage that included their condition at all? How many instances are there of people being dropped from plans due to medical conditions?

Now can you give us the figures on how many Americans are underinsured or uninsured? Feel free to toss in the numbers for people pushed into bankruptcy by medical bills.
 

I think not

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Reverend Blair said:
Wow, that's really steep. How much more would it cost somebody with a pre-existing medical condition? Would that person be able to get coverage that included their condition at all? How many instances are there of people being dropped from plans due to medical conditions?

Now can you give us the figures on how many Americans are underinsured or uninsured? Feel free to toss in the numbers for people pushed into bankruptcy by medical bills.

I'll be happy to, as soon as you tell me how many people die on your waiting lists.