Jesus Died of a Deep Vein Thrombosis?

mps

New Member
Jun 6, 2005
44
0
6
Nova Scotia
They didn't really prove anything, they just said what may have happened in a given situation. The claims were based on what evidence they could gather from scripture and then fitting that together with what they now know about blood clots.

I doubt that the intention was, first and foremost, a religious one, but rather and cheap way to draw attention to the doctor's work.

Long aside: Whether Jesus physically existed is not a pressing issue for me. I have no reservations about accepting that a dude quite similar to him lived in Mesopotamia around 2000 years ago, and was killed for rambling some pretty crazy lines (at the time).

What is pressing though, and outright false, is the god-man status. The council of Nicea, a few hundred years after his supposed execution, decided then and there that he was god incarnate.

Did he exist? Yeah, probably.

Was he god-incarnate? Probably not.
 

Vanni Fucci

Senate Member
Dec 26, 2004
5,239
17
38
8th Circle, 7th Bolgia
the-brights.net
If he did exist, and I don't believe he did, then the lack of evidence of his existence would suggest that he was far more mundane than the scriptures portray him. More likely, he was part of a Jewish insurgency against the Romans, and that he was executed for treason and subsequently martyred by his fellow insurgents.

The Pharisees, seeing their own position in the community threatened by a Roman backlash, gave their assent to his arrest, trial and crucifixion. The insurgents, after the mythologization of their movement, would have villified the Pharisees, and is the very rift between Judaism and Christianity that is still prevalent to this day.

I read somewhere, and I'll have to research the reference again, that from Roman records of execution, historians know that crucifixion was not common in the Roman Empire. There were only a couple offences that warranted execution. One was treason, and I believe the other was murder of a state official. That the thieves were executed with Jesus is highly unlikely, as theft was not a crime punishable by crucifixion.
 

I think not

Hall of Fame Member
Apr 12, 2005
10,506
33
48
The Evil Empire
Crucifixion appeared to be quite common:

Crucifixion is an ancient method of execution, in which the victim was tied or nailed to a large wooden cross (Latin: crux) and left to hang there until dead. It was a common form of execution from the 6th century BC to the 4th century AD, especially among the Persians, Egyptians, Carthaginians, and Romans. Crucifixion has gained notoriety in Christianity as a method used by the Romans to put Jesus to death, and the cross has become the main Christian symbol.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crucifixion
 

Vanni Fucci

Senate Member
Dec 26, 2004
5,239
17
38
8th Circle, 7th Bolgia
the-brights.net
Roman Crucifixion

Some interesting reading at this site...not cite... :wink:

One point of interest would be that according to the Gospels, Jesus was tried by the Romans, and Pontius Pilate proclaimed that Jesus had committed no crime...bowing to pressure from the Sanhedrin, he convicted Jesus, and sentenced him to crucifixion according to Roman law. This seems unlikely in that the Romans considered the Jews of the time to be a conquered people and a procurator of the Roman Empire would not have been pressured to do anything...
 

I think not

Hall of Fame Member
Apr 12, 2005
10,506
33
48
The Evil Empire
Well there you have it. Two links to "facts".

Next time anyone links a website and considers it a fact, I'll remember this, on any topic.

We can't even get history straight.
 

Twila

Nanah Potato
Mar 26, 2003
14,698
73
48
RE: Jesus Died of a Deep

Well there you have it. Two links to "facts".

Next time anyone links a website and considers it a fact, I'll remember this, on any topic.

We can't even get history straight.

I hate when this kind of thing happens. Now I have to go and sit and question everything I thought I knew......
 

mps

New Member
Jun 6, 2005
44
0
6
Nova Scotia
Vanni Fucci said:
If he did exist, and I don't believe he did, then the lack of evidence of his existence would suggest that he was far more mundane than the scriptures portray him. More likely, he was part of a Jewish insurgency against the Romans, and that he was executed for treason and subsequently martyred by his fellow insurgents.

A little background info: Jesus was a nazorene. That usually get's mistranslated and people say Jesus of Nazareth, but Nazareth wasn't established as a town until a close to 200 AD.

The nazorene's were a devout sect of Jews who lived in caves in Mesopotamia. They had an internal prophecy that two messiahs would come and restore them to glory: a kingly messiah and an earthly messiah. The kingly messiah of the nazorene's was the man we call Jesus, as he descended from the line of David, and the earthly messiah was James, his brother.

When the two messiahs are in place, I think it was called Shallom, which means something akin to unity or harmony. Each messiah represented a pillar, and Shallom represented an archway that connected the two of them.

So again, Jesus = King Messiah, James = Earth Messiah.

That's the commonly held belief anyway.

Where it gets muddled is when one of those two messiahs tried to usurp the title from the other. Obviously an archway will not stand if one pillar is trying to support two sides, and that's pretty much what happened. The man named Jesus claimed himself both the King messiah descended from David, as well as the Earth messiah (which was also known as the Priestly messiah). Dissention rose within the other nazorene's, and the rest is misrecorded history.

What's interesting to note though is who Jesus was crucified in favour of. The Bible states that the crowd was asked whether they wanted to kill Jesus, the King of the Jews, or Barabas. Oddly enough, Barabas translates as "Son of God", which also means Earthly Messiah.

When these events finally got written down, they were likely skewed. That's why the best source of this information is the Apocrypha of the New Testament. It's also more fun to read then the gospels that they left in the Bible. The apocrypha paints Jesus as a kid who would kill children just so he could bring them back to life. Fucked up stuff for sure, but interesting nonetheless.
 

Vanni Fucci

Senate Member
Dec 26, 2004
5,239
17
38
8th Circle, 7th Bolgia
the-brights.net
mps said:
Vanni Fucci said:
If he did exist, and I don't believe he did, then the lack of evidence of his existence would suggest that he was far more mundane than the scriptures portray him. More likely, he was part of a Jewish insurgency against the Romans, and that he was executed for treason and subsequently martyred by his fellow insurgents.

A little background info: Jesus was a nazorene. That usually get's mistranslated and people say Jesus of Nazareth, but Nazareth wasn't established as a town until a close to 200 AD.

The nazorene's were a devout sect of Jews who lived in caves in Mesopotamia.

Interesting...but I thought it is commonly held that the sect that Jesus belonged to was the Essenes...for those that wish to believe he existed, that is...

For my part, I believe that Jesus was a fictitious character in an epic poem, like Gilgamesh of the Babylonians...that first poem, which has subsequently been lost, was expanded upon by various authors and the Synoptic Gospels were born...
 

Reverend Blair

Council Member
Apr 3, 2004
1,238
1
38
Winnipeg
RE: Jesus Died of a Deep

I think he was an amalgam of several different people that got all wrapped up in a single story...with plenty of borrowing of morality myths from nearby cultures.
 

mps

New Member
Jun 6, 2005
44
0
6
Nova Scotia
Seems a bit complex to me; and unnecessary. I mean, given your position, how does one account for the Council of Nicea? Did the emperor call it to settle the divinity of an imaginary person; or was that too a work of fiction?

By all accounts, a man names Jesus, or Iesus, lived around 2000 years ago, but what is entirely deniable is his supposed divinity. He was a man, and it was a council that elevated him to something else.

I just don't understand the "He never existed at all" position. So elaborate, if you feel the need to.
 

Reverend Blair

Council Member
Apr 3, 2004
1,238
1
38
Winnipeg
RE: Jesus Died of a Deep

He would have been in the union...he wa obviously a leftist. ;-)

I just don't understand the "He never existed at all" position. So elaborate, if you feel the need to.

He was spiked up as a revolutionary by the Romans...they kept records of everything. Yet there is no reference to Jesus in their history or records.