Bush Has a Lot to Answer for on Iraq Torture

You insult, you get insulted. And thar what you will get.
OK, Ill make this easy for you.

YOU started with the personal insults.

Like I said, real naqbah is video, hard drives, and memory. Go back and check it out.

Like I said earlier-- you wanna play, you gotta pay.
Paranoid Dot Calm

I admit that the world is unfair.
I'm not thinking that the U.S. is a bunch of tyrants or whatever.

I just dislike dupicity.
Imagine that American folks are having to compare themselves
to countries such as Sudan in an effort to sanctify their invasion
of Iraq.

When did American Justice become American Just-us?

I really don't lose sleep when America utilizes it's military. I said
very little during their Central America intrusions in the early
But, this invasion into Iraq puts my way of life at risk.
The Americans have insulted the whole Arab world.
And, Bush says "Bring 'em On".
I don't give two hoots what Israel does.
I write about Israel because America needs to begin negotiating
a way out of Iraq.
They can't carpet bomb like Vietnam because they can't destroy
the oil infrastructure. So, it means negotiations with the Arab
world. There is no way that the U.S. can win a war against
billions of Arabs.
Saudi Arabia is goin' down.
It is not safe for any American to walk the face of this earth.
Every person from the West is becoming a soft target.

Negotiations mean taking Israel into the World Court and getting
their asses back to the '67 borders.
Not that this will settle the problem, but at least it will begin to
show "goodwill" on behalf of the West.
Israel is a land of nothing.
It has no natural resources. It does not even have water. The
wall they are building is following water tables, not security.
Anything Jewish folks got, they got off the backs of gentiles.

America can refuse .... but no other country is gonna volunteer
their citizens as cannon fodder for American interests.

Every truth and ideal that America held sacred has been shattered
with this invasion of Iraq. They will never recover from the shame
brought upon their nation. And they are too proud to admit it.
They too are suicidal.

There arent billions of Arabs-- but thats not the point. I do agree that we need to find a better way, but simply negotiating with corrupt regimes hasnt worked in over 50 years-- I dont see how it will wortk now, unless theres real reform in the Arab world.

As for the rest of you rpost, well, I disagree. The west will defend itself.
Paranoid Dot Calm

The propaganda apparatus feeds disinformation
into the news chain. The terror warnings must
appear to be "genuine". The objective is to present
the terror groups as "enemies of America.

globalresearch.ca/articles/CHO405B.html (external - login to view)

I dont see the nexus.

Are you saying the threats to America and Americans isnt real?

Are the threats on the tapes given to Al Jazeera by the terrorists not to be taken seriously?

Was Muqtada Al Sadr also 'diversionary'?
Far too many Americans don't know beans when the bag is opened--and worse, aren't trained to know.

But it's a setup. Americans, from the time they are just little duffers beginning kindergarten, are in the hands of the State. Right from the get-go, what do they learn? The Pledge of Allegiance . Read the words and marvel at their hypocricy. For openers, just cogitate on "with justice and liberty for all." How many books have been written on that phrase alone and how many more could be written? I ask all Americans to explore their system of justice--laws, enforcement, the entire criminal justice system, social programs (for Americans, a contradiction of terms), and whole plethora of social ills. The only conclusion any sane, thoughtful, logical person can possibly arrive at is that "justice and liberty for all" is a complete, utter fabrication for a vast number of Americans. And oh, yeah, let's not forget the Patriot Act....(oh good Lord, let's not go there....well, maybe.....but another time.)

And yet, the Plague--no, I mean, the Pledge is taught as fact in the school system--not only taught, but it is branded into the minds of the nation's unwitting sponges. I conjure up the picture of millions of wee Blacks, Hispanics, Whites--all manner of disenfranchised youngsters from America's inner cities--standing up, facing the stars and stripes and having to learn and endlessly repeat the words including, "with justice and liberty for all." --this while their tummies are rumbling for lack of sufficient food, their minds dazed as a result of poor food and an overall rotten home life so made by government design and neglect of the inner city (stuff of which other books are made--and all too complicated and twisted to deal with in this small offering).

The propaganda train presses on. As the little darlings pass through the school system, they are introduced to history. Not just any history, mind you--but American history. And if the young'uns happen to learn anything about other countries, it is only by happenstance--as in their connection to the U.S. And don't Americans love their history.......skewed.........in their favour.........of course. Yes, the American child learns that the universe--as they should know it--begins and ends at the borders of the U.S. of A. They learn that their country, one nation, under God (oh puhleeeese!) is the saviour of this sad, old world. And why not? Its citizenry is comprised of God fearing, upstanding, understanding, kind hearted, benevolent, giving, morally superior, altruistic human beings. Oh really? And the peoples of all other nations are what, exactly? Chopped liver? Well so it would seem from a typical American's point of view.

So what do we have so far? Relentless repetition of a pledge fraught with lies; a history skewdly taught; and finally, ....TA DA........drum roll, pleeeeeease.........chief propaganda promotor.......Yes, America's very own...........CORPORATE MEDIA!! I'm telling you, folks, Joe Average is SNOOKERED!

But it's America's closeness to God that's so truly awesome. I am particularly impressed by Junior's ongoing relationship with God to whom he gives up prayers and from whom he asks forgiveness, following which--but only after--invoking the blessing of God--plunges his country and its citizens into an unprovoked war--as in--------RETRIBUTION is OURS! We shall exact our pound of flesh!!!! Whose flesh is of no import! Let's just say that we're gonna get the show on the road by bombing the hell out of Afghanistan....but.....ppssst to those "in the know".....our real mission is IRAQ!! Oil, ya know. Must control.

But to the great unwashed, Saddam-BAD! Dictatorship-NOT GOOD! U.S.ofA. give FREEDOM to Iraqi people! But, first, kill Iraqis, then free Iraqis. North Korea-----no-kidding-type Weapons of Mass Destruction. Inspectors not needed. No proof required. We got proof. But.....Media no talk about. Big dictator. Huge human rights infractions. Media no talk about. Mission: Iraq.

And so, with the able assistance of corporate media, and with God and Bush nestling in to OBSERVE a fine invasion, the crowd roars its approval and, with patriotic furor, willingly offers up its young for the cause. Figures. The Bible is riddled with stories about human sacrifices.

And so, seven hundred plus--and counting--American bodies later--and untold thousands of Iraqis killed or maimed--and who's counting the myriad casualties from other involved countries (only American bodies count for much--and even then, for Junior, not THAT much), the truth starts to oooooozze out to the consternation of Bush and his not-so-merry gang. Not true, Junoir protests. Not true, echo his corporate media mouth pieces. Lies, lies and more damn lies, screams Cheney. And as the revelations steadily begin to surface--a floodgate that corporate media struggles--still--to control, the Bu****es cry, foul, foul.

And yet, even as the Americans are exposed to the real agenda of the U.S., too many continue to resist recognizing the truth as truth. Notwithstanding that their champion of peace, democracy, good will, etc., has plunged his nation into the depths of degradation at a cost of billions--to say nothing of unspeakable abject human suffering--the American mind is only........weellllll.......divided. My god they should be demanding en masse for Bush's impeachment--at the very least--for he is a liar; a cowardly man; a miserly man; a man void of principles; a truly reviled man; a man who is a disgrace to his country------NAY------a disgrace to humanity. There have always been leaders of evil and there will be more of the same in the future---it is written. What makes this man so despicable is that he acts in a manner which he himself decries in others. Hipocrites are the worst. And yet, even still, the American public is.........divided.

The systemized propagandizing of America is complete. How sad......how very sad.......for the Yanks......and for the world.

Bushanti is my name; Junior is my game.
How exactly different is 'Oh Canada' from the pledge of allegiance?

While it's nice to be able to blame 'corporate America' for all the worlds ills and absolve anyone anywhere of any culpability and thus justify any behavior, well, that just doesnt work in the real world.

It might fly in sophmore poli sci, but for the rest of us, it's not so clear.

I knhow I'm probably wasting my time, but read this.

Can West News Services, owners of several Canadian newspapers including the National Post as well as the Global Television Network commissioned a series of polls to determine how young people feel about the issues that were facing the country’s voters. Dubbed "Youth Vote 2004", the polls, sponsored by the Dominion Institute and Navigator Ltd. were taken with a view to getting more young people involved in the political process.

In one telephone poll of teens between the ages of 14 and 18, over 40 per cent of the respondents described the United States as being "evil". That number rose to 64 per cent for French Canadian youth.

This being Canada, the amount of anti-Americanism that was found is not surprising. What is significant is the high number of teens who used the word "evil" to describe our southern neighbour. As Misty Harris pointed out in her column in the Saskatoon Star Phoenix, evil is usually associated with serial killers and "kids who tear the legs off baby spiders." These teens appear to equate George W. Bush and Americans with Osama bin Laden and Hitler, although it is unknown if the teens polled would describe the latter two as being evil. Whether someone who orders planes to be flown into heavily populated buildings would fit that description would make a good subject for a future poll.

The Liberal government came into power in 1993 gushing anti-Americanism. Former Prime Minister Jean Chrétien’s communications director, Francoise Ducros, made headlines when she referred to President Bush as a moron. Liberal MP Carolyn Parrish was picked up on a boom microphone saying, "Damn Americans — I hate those bastards". Not only did Parrish not apologize for her remarks, but she later appeared on a television show hosted by alleged comedian Mike Bullard and laughed about the incident. Parrish played to the anti-Americanism of the youthful studio audience by saying that she couldn’t guarantee that she wouldn’t do it again.

Not only did then Prime Minister Jean Chrétien not take any action against his staff or caucus members, he himself engaged in America-bashing. The depth of his anti-Americanism surfaced shortly after the 9/11 attacks when he blamed the arrogance and greed of the West (read the United States) for those attacks.

When Paul Martin assumed office last December, the childish cheap shots ended but, if anything, anti-Americanism became stronger.

Anti-Americanism played a prominent role in the election strategy of the Liberals. Paul Martin portrayed himself as the saviour of Canadian medicare while saying that if Stephen Harper and the Conservative Party of Canada came to power they would introduce "American-style" health care. Martin was happy to take credit for cutting taxes and eliminating the deficit during the 1990s when he was Minister of Finance, but he referred to tax cuts included in the Conservative Party platform as being "American-style tax cuts". Canadians who favour lower taxes or the private delivery of health care services or smaller governments or anything similar to what is found in the United States were called "un-Canadian" by Paul Martin.

It is therefore not surprising that a high percentage of Canadian youth think that the United States is evil. Nor is it surprising that this feeling is more pronounced in Quebec where Bloc Quebecois leader Gilles Duceppe said that he would rather live under the United Nations than the Stars and Stripes. The left wing Canadian political parties, aided by their supporters in the elite media don’t seem to be able to say anything positive about Canada without denigrating the United States in the process.

The poll results reflect that anti-Americanism will be solidly entrenched in future generations of Canadians. As well as listening to the propaganda espoused by their political leaders and the media, these kids have no experience with what constitutes real evil. They live in a country that much like pre-9/11 America, thinks that terrorist attacks are something that happens in other countries. And as the World War II veterans slowly die off, they have no conviction of the evil that the allies risked their lives to defeat.

With anti-Americanism playing such a prominent role in this past election campaign, it is no wonder that the United States was viewed in such a negative light.
Quote: Originally Posted by researchok

I knhow I'm probably wasting my time, but read this.

You have been wasting your time since day one. Are you going to convince the masses with your Bushy trash?
Did you read it?
Ohh I've read that article already... Quite good might I add. Though, I wonder what word they used for evil in french. Anti-Americanism, is higher here, then anywhere else in Canada. Not only among the youth, but pretty much everyone. I remember so many hockey games, in montreal, where the American National Anthem was booooooooooed... Why? Not out of sheer ignorance, please. But, out of protest, for their unjustified wars, and double standards.


How exactly different is 'Oh Canada' from the pledge of allegiance?

I know in Québec, no one learns it in school... Actually, I don't even know the pledge of allegiance. Never heard it, or bothered to hear it. Don't know for RoC though.


While it's nice to be able to blame 'corporate America' for all the worlds ills and absolve anyone anywhere of any culpability and thus justify any behavior, well, that just doesnt work in the real world.

I blame them for brainwashing most americans... You guys have one of the lowest percentage of post-secondary diploma holders in the western world. Take the shoes of your average American, who holds only his American history class (I still don't understand why Americans, don't get a Global History class in high school), and no further understand of the world around him.


It might fly in sophmore poli sci, but for the rest of us, it's not so clear.

For me, it is. And I did a minor in poli sci, at McGill mind you


I knhow I'm probably wasting my time, but read this.

What ever other people might say, I doubt your wasting your time. I might not agree with your point of you, but I respect it.
Thanks for your pst, numure.

My remarks were addressed to someone else.

You are in a different position, in that Quebecois fall into a third category, if you will- that of being on the inside out and the outside in all at once.

My referance to Oh Canada was in response to an earlier poster who had complained about the US pledge of allegiance-- whose words are equivalent to Oh Canada. No more, no less.

Now, I will agree with you that the economic system-- pointedly, any economic system-- has influence beyond its boundries in the educational system. I think thats where a vibrant and healthy scepticsm come in, to find the right balance.

However, I do maintain that simply placing the onus on one single source for all that isnt well is simplistic.

You studied poli sci-- you know that the world we live in is a reflection of speed chess played on many levels in real time. However tempting it is to reduce that to a simple message, it is a mistake.

Anyway, I pointedly left out remaking on the US educational system-- because no doubt it needs fixing badly, in many areas-- but by the same token, it is also very alive and vibrant at the research stage, etc. I know you understand where Im going with that. Id like to pick it uo with you at a later point.

Je vous remerci, mon copain-- c'est vraimant un plaiser de bavarder avec quel q'un que comprendre les nuances de notre monde...

Anyway, je reve de Chalet BBQ.....!
Paranoid Dot Calm
Norway reacts to torture of children
As a reaction to the alleged torture of children,
Norwegian authorities state they will address
the US both politically and diplomatically and clearly
state that it is not tolerated.

pub.tv2.no/nettavisen/english/article249696.ece (external - login to view)

According to a 1998 report by Mr Flyer, one third of
military recruits had arrest records. A 1995 report
found that a quarter of serving army personnel had
committed one or more criminal offences while on
active duty. In his 2003 study, Mr Flyer said that
military personnel officers had been reluctant to
toughen up screening procedures, fearing
that the result would be a failure to meet
recruitment goals.

www.commondreams.org/headlines04/0705-01.htm (external - login to view)

From the Chicago Sun Times:
General to pilot: 'You acted shamefully'
July 7, 2004
BY FRANK MAIN Staff Reporter

An Illinois Air National Guard fighter pilot acted shamefully and arrogantly when he ignored an order to hold fire and dropped a bomb that killed four Canadian soldiers in 2002, an Air Force general has ruled.
Maj. Harry Schmidt was found guilty of dereliction of duty in the friendly fire disaster in Afghanistan. Lt. Gen. Bruce Carlson, the 8th Air Force commander at Barksdale Air Force Base in Louisiana, issued a scathing reprimand of Schmidt and ordered him to forfeit two months' pay -- $5,672.
"You acted shamefully on 17 April 2002 over Tarnak Farms, Afghanistan, exhibiting arrogance and a lack of flight discipline," Carlson wrote in the reprimand, released Tuesday.
The general blasted Schmidt, a former Navy Top Gun instructor, for failing to heed another pilot, his ''flight lead,'' who warned "make sure it's not friendlies." Schmidt also ignored an Airborne Warning and Control System aircraft controller's direction to "stand by" and later to "hold fire," Carlson said.
Four Canadians were killed and eight were wounded when Schmidt radioed that he was rolling his F-16 in self-defense and dropped a 500-pound laser-guided bomb on the troops as they conducted a live-fire exercise at night. Schmidt argued that he was not briefed that Canadians were practicing war maneuvers outside Kandahar and that he thought they were enemies firing at him and his flight leader, William Umbach.
Umbach resigned last June and was given a letter of reprimand for command failures.
Schmidt, 38, appeared before Carlson last Thursday to present his case, but the general was unconvinced. The written materials the pilot gave the general only served to "illustrate the degree to which you lacked flight discipline," he wrote.
The general also accused Schmidt of lying about the reasons he engaged the target after he was told to hold fire.
"You had the right to remain silent, but not the right to lie," Carlson wrote.
And the general criticized Schmidt for failing to express remorse about the deaths of the Canadians, whom Carlson described as "our staunch allies."
"In fact, you were obviously angry that the United States had dared to question your actions," he said.
Schmidt even launched his own Web site, harryschmidt.org, defending his actions and urging supporters to demand that their elected representatives ''stand up for Major Schmidt.''
Schmidt and his lawyer, Charles W. Gittins, could not be reached for comment. Schmidt was given until next Monday to appeal the punishment.
Last month, Schmidt entered a deal with the Air Force allowing him to appear before Carlson in a non-judicial hearing instead of going before a more serious court-martial. He was allowed to serve in the Illinois Air National Guard for three more years until he retires, but he cannot fly. Yet he will continue to receive his flight-grade pay, his attorney has said.
Joyce Clooney, the grandmother of Pvt. Richard Green of Nova Scotia, said she was pleased with the discipline.
"I can look at Ricky's picture on the wall and say, 'Ricky, justice was done,'" she said.
Clooney did not want Schmidt to serve any time behind bars, but was glad he will no longer fly for the military.
"I feel he got a good going over and he deserves it," she said. "He was trying to put the blame on someone else."
your point?
Paranoid Dot Calm

Hey! ResearchOK

I wasn't trying to make any particular point.
Perhaps I posted these two links of interesting stories
to the wrong conference?
I'm new here .... is there a separate Iraq War conference?

Not that Im aware of, but you could start a new thread.
Quote: Originally Posted by researchok

Yes, the marxist websites are a bastion ot truth and reality.

No doubt the citizens of the former USSR and Eastern Europe miss their old regimes and reliable 'news sources'.

It matters not a whit how Iraq got paid for its oil-- euros or dollars. Learn about it-- called 'spot prices'.

By the way, no Iraqi oil reserves have been privatized.

Look that up, too.

Actually, Marxist.com, is mostly North Americans, and Western Europeans. I was a marxist-leninist in my days of University
LOL....Im really laughing hard now-- when I was in school, I toyed with marxism too....ah to be young!

My turning point was a trip to eastern Europe.

Lets just say I discovered cold water.
heh I went to Eastern Europe as well. Liked it though Wasnt in the days of Communism I must say... Though I went to Yugoslavia before it became democratic. Great people... incredibly racist though :S

I'm a socialist now a days. A great man once said - "The most compasionate people, we're Marxists when young adults". Makes more sense in french, still holds its meaning in english
yes, it does hold its meaning.

I was in eastern europe both before and after 91...

cant speak for yugoslavia-- I wasnt there. I can agree though that racsicm was pretty common throught the region.

I am probably more liberal on social issues, more conservative on fiscal issues.

Foreign policy wise, Id have to say Im a realist, in the sense that with little exception, confrontation and adversarial positions rarely work.

Plus ca change, plus ca reste la meme...
"My referance to Oh Canada was in response to an earlier poster who had complained about the US pledge of allegiance-- whose words are equivalent to Oh Canada. No more, no less."

Duh, RESEARCHOK, that would be me.

Would you mind too terribly if I referred to you as a tad myopic or obtuse or both? Judging from your inane (not to be mistaken for funny--you are NEVER funny) responses, I can clearly understand your proclivity for the American way. You don't read, and what you read, you clearly do not understand. But, let me repeat what I alluded to in an earlier post. You've clearly made the right decision to live in the United States where you are so eminently qualified to reside. Now, of course, you CAN return to this country, but I entreat you on my bended arthritic knee, stay put. Rejoice in your obtuseness. You're precisely the type that Junior is counting on. Don't let the boy down. Tell me, do you qualify for the draft? I do so hope that one day you'll be able to have that total American experience. Ooooooo, doesn't it just send Stars and Stripes shivers up your spine :]

I have to admit I like your style when posting. Keep it up. We need a little humor in here. I also agree that Researchoj is very obtuse and hope they one day draft him to see the horror of war. Amen.

I don't read.

Well, if you're referring to reading mindless drivel, you're right. I avoid it like the plague.

I find it interesting that you insist on ad hominum attacks rather than discuss the issues. One can reasonably surmise your're ill equipped to discuss the issues.

Then again, I cant really say Id expected anything else.

People in this forum are, for the most part, thoughtful and civil.

By your words and demenaor, you deem yourself ill informed and irrelevant to meaningful exchange.
Quote: Originally Posted by moghrabi


I have to admit I like your style when posting. Keep it up. We need a little humor in here. I also agree that Researchoj is very obtuse and hope they one day draft him to see the horror of war. Amen.


Thats good, moghrabi.

I know I am brilliant. You need a little of that my son.

youre too funny! really!!

But its a good trait tobe able to poke fun at yourself--really!
thanks for saying Thay I am really funny. We agree there. But somehow you missed the point. I was making fun of you.


So now you have Bushanti to make her believe in your version of world events. I wish you luck. I don't think you are gioing to convice a lot of people.
Actually, you misread my post. You missed the point.

When you referred to yourself as brilliant.

I said you knew how to poke fun at yourself.
I do not miss your posts. I look forward to them and read them. This way I see how ignorant you are.
Well, Im glad.

No doubt about it, youre an expert on ignorant.

Similar Threads

Bush will veto torture ban
by dancing-loon | Mar 11th, 2008
Torture in Iraq worse than under Saddam
by Jersay | Mar 2nd, 2006
The Zionists and Torture in Iraq
by moghrabi | Sep 20th, 2004
no new posts