Tolerance

Tecumsehsbones
+1
#1
Inside Britain’s big, dumb halal pizza scandal

Hmmm. . . if Westerners are as tolerant as some folk hereabouts like to claim, why are they organising boycotts of chains that use halal meat? A body might think "tolerant" would be "I won't eat there, but they can do as they please."

"That turns out not to be the case."
--Captain Lord Roderick Blaine, The Mote in God's Eye
 
petros
#2
What a shame.

Cold cut discrimination is absurd.
 
Sal
#3
Quote: Originally Posted by TecumsehsbonesView Post

Inside Britainís big, dumb halal pizza scandal

Hmmm. . . if Westerners are as tolerant as some folk hereabouts like to claim, why are they organising boycotts of chains that use halal meat? A body might think "tolerant" would be "I won't eat there, but they can do as they please."

"That turns out not to be the case."
--Captain Lord Roderick Blaine, The Mote in God's Eye

some are intolerant and others are upset due to the cruelty involved in the slaughter AND the fact that once again people have been eating food which has been prepared in a way that they were unaware of.

I want to know what I am eating so that I make the choice. I do not eat deli meat because it is not the best choice to make from a health perspective (for me). I get to make the choice.

As for the Christian country and they don't want to eat Muslim food...it is fear and until people can be reassured there is no need for that fear there will be intolerance.

Should they be afraid? I don't know.
 
Tecumsehsbones
#4
Quote: Originally Posted by SalView Post

some are intolerant

That's pretty much what I said.
 
Sal
#5
Quote: Originally Posted by TecumsehsbonesView Post

That's pretty much what I said.

yup...same page

my big question would be, is there a need for fear...I am not 100% convinced that there is no need for fear...but then I have friends who refused to war hijabs let alone burkas and there have been "consequences".
 
DaSleeper
#6
Quote: Originally Posted by SalView Post

some are intolerant and others are upset due to the cruelty involved in the slaughter AND the fact that once again people have been eating food which has been prepared in a way that they were unaware of.

I want to know what I am eating so that I make the choice. I do not eat deli meat because it is not the best choice to make from a health perspective (for me). I get to make the choice.

As for the Christian country and they don't want to eat Muslim food...it is fear and until people can be reassured there is no need for that fear there will be intolerance.

Should they be afraid? I don't know.

You had my vote until I got to your usual rant against Christians.....
 
Sal
#7
Quote: Originally Posted by DaSleeperView Post

You had my vote until I got to your usual rant against Christians.....

that is in the article so I commented on it...*shrug*

and it is also the reason for the fear...

did you not read the article?
 
Tecumsehsbones
+1
#8
Quote: Originally Posted by SalView Post

that is in the article so I commented on it...*shrug*

and it is also the reason for the fear...

did you not read the article?

Surely you jest.

Quote: Originally Posted by SalView Post

yup...same page

my big question would be, is there a need for fear...I am not 100% convinced that there is no need for fear...but then I have friends who refused to war hijabs let alone burkas and there have been "consequences".

To use violence against women as a reason to oppose Muslim dietary restrictions is exactly the same thing as using boy-raping priests as a reason to oppose Lenten restrictions.
 
Sal
#9
Quote: Originally Posted by TecumsehsbonesView Post

To use violence against women as a reason to oppose Muslim dietary restrictions is exactly the same thing as using boy-raping priests as a reason to oppose Lenten restrictions.

Okay, point taken. Here' my line of thought on it. I don't care about them using Halal chicken. In Britain they are claiming only 12% of the poultry is not stunned before the bleed out. If true they are likely killing in a more humane manner than many other countries. The 12% can be worked on.

The fear is not about eating the chicken or violence against women although that is a part of the larger picture. They are just afraid of the old fallacy give an inch take a mile.

So my question would be, is that fear valid. If not address that. If it is...well, then there is another problem.

this isn't about the meat, it's about fear...I don't think people are so tolerant... I am tolerant only up until my level of tolerance allows you to take away my freedom. Right now under the Christian regime, I feel pretty free.

Just putting that out there.
 
DaSleeper
#10
Quote: Originally Posted by SalView Post

that is in the article so I commented on it...*shrug*

and it is also the reason for the fear...

did you not read the article?

The single word "Christian" is mentioned "once" in the article.......
 
Sal
#11
Quote: Originally Posted by DaSleeperView Post

The single word "Christian" is mentioned "once" in the article.......

yes..once

most articles never mention it once UNLESS it is pertinent to story
 
Tecumsehsbones
#12
Quote: Originally Posted by DaSleeperView Post

The single word "Christian" is mentioned "once" in the article.......

Which puts you in an excellent position to attempt to ignore the fact that the UK is officially a Christian country.

Quote: Originally Posted by SalView Post

Okay, point taken. Here' my line of thought on it. I don't care about them using Halal chicken. In Britain they are claiming only 12% of the poultry is not stunned before the bleed out. If true they are likely killing in a more humane manner than many other countries. The 12% can be worked on.

Agreed.

Quote:

The fear is not about eating the chicken or violence against women although that is a part of the larger picture. They are just afraid of the old fallacy give an inch take a mile.

So my question would be, is that fear valid. If not address that. If it is...well, then there is another problem.

No, it isn't. There is no necessary correlation between religion and oppression.

[/quote]this isn't about the meat, it's about fear...I don't think people are so tolerant... I am tolerant only up until my level of tolerance allows you to take away my freedom. Right now under the Christian regime, I feel pretty free.

Just putting that out there.[/QUOTE]
At the moment, I do too. Not so much 40 years ago in the Indian school.
 
DaSleeper
#13
Quote: Originally Posted by TecumsehsbonesView Post

Which puts you in an excellent position to attempt to ignore the fact that the UK is officially a Christian country.

Let's see you compare "tolerance" ...between Christian countries.... and muslim counties.......
 
Tecumsehsbones
+1
#14
Quote: Originally Posted by DaSleeperView Post

Let's see you compare "tolerance" ...between Christian countries.... and muslim counties.......

So, "we don't suck as bad as some others" is your standard for excellence? Outstanding. Set the bar low enough and you can be sure to clear it.
 
captain morgan
+1
#15
Quote: Originally Posted by TecumsehsbonesView Post

Inside Britainís big, dumb halal pizza scandal

Hmmm. . . if Westerners are as tolerant as some folk hereabouts like to claim, why are they organising boycotts of chains that use halal meat? A body might think "tolerant" would be "I won't eat there, but they can do as they please."

I believe that this issues goes much deeper than simple unjustified intolerance.

There is a backlash in a number of European nations directed at Muslims and the common theme relates to a lack of integration and acceptance (read; respect in general) of the mores and customs in their new home.

It's really not surprising to observe this trend
 
Spade
+2
#16
Quote: Originally Posted by DaSleeperView Post

Let's see you compare "tolerance" ...between Christian countries.... and muslim counties.......

You mean like Northern Ireland, Nazi Germany, Austria, Hungary, Serbia, the Ukraine, Croatia, Slovenia, Vichy France, the Good ole USA, Russia, South Africa, Rhodesia, ...
PS
No mention of Canada because we've been truthed and reconciled.

Quote: Originally Posted by captain morganView Post

I believe that this issues goes much deeper than simple unjustified intolerance.

There is a backlash in a number of European nations directed at Muslims and the common theme relates to a lack of integration and acceptance (read; respect in general) of the mores and customs in their new home.

It's really not surprising to observe this trend


But, like you, the thoughtful man contemns it.
 
Tecumsehsbones
+1
#17
Quote: Originally Posted by SpadeView Post

You mean like Northern Ireland,

Good point. Religious tolerance in Northern Ireland is something the entire Christian world can hold up to the Muslim world.
 
Spade
#18
It ain't Chrisjuns, jes' catliks!
 
Sal
+1
#19
Quote: Originally Posted by TecumsehsbonesView Post

No, it isn't. There is no necessary correlation between religion and oppression

If true how do you explain the lack of tolerance for women, the need to cover them, the need to measure the size of the stick for hitting...the blame if they are raped, the stoning if caught in an adulterous relationship...the attitude of our resident ":don't eat pork person"?

If it is not the religion, then what?

Quote:

At the moment, I do too. Not so much 40 years ago in the Indian school.

point taken, it has not always been so...however this country and others in Europe have reached this level of tolerance under the Christian system no?
 
Tecumsehsbones
+2
#20
Quote: Originally Posted by SalView Post

If true how do you explain the lack of tolerance for women, the need to cover them, the need to measure the size of the stick for hitting...the blame if they are raped, the stoning if caught in an adulterous relationship...the attitude of our resident ":don't eat pork person"?

If it is not the religion, then what?

I would say the culture. Non-Muslim religions in the Middle East are also not particularly well-known for granting equality to women. A male Orthodox Jew will not touch a woman who is not his wife, sister, or daughter. Not even to shake hands.

I suspect that the main reason Christianity is ahead of many other religions in how it treats women is because Christianity spread to countries where women were treated better by the local cultures, northern Europe in this case. Religion affects culture, but guess what? Culture affects religion too.

Quote:

point taken, it has not always been so...however this country and others in Europe have reached this level of tolerance under the Christian system no?

Part of it is what I said up thar, and another part is that the general recent history of the West has been the professional and middle classes agitating for more power in societies controlled by the aristocracy. So when they get that, it serves as an example to the classes below them (including women and religious/racial/ethnic minorities) of how to improve their lot.

I call it Jefferson's Dilemma. How do you write that everyone is equal and has equal rights whilst holding slaves?
 
pgs
#21
Quote: Originally Posted by TecumsehsbonesView Post

Which puts you in an excellent position to attempt to ignore the fact that the UK is officially a Christian country.


Agreed.


No, it isn't. There is no necessary correlation between religion and oppression.

this isn't about the meat, it's about fear...I don't think people are so tolerant... I am tolerant only up until my level of tolerance allows you to take away my freedom. Right now under the Christian regime, I feel pretty free.

Just putting that out there.[/QUOTE]
At the moment, I do too. Not so much 40 years ago in the Indian school.[/QUOTE]
That Indian school started you on the road to your law degree .
 
Tecumsehsbones
#22
Quote: Originally Posted by pgsView Post

That Indian school started you on the road to your law degree .

Um. . . no, that Indian school was a six-year diversion on my road to my law degrees.
 
Goober
#23
Quote: Originally Posted by TecumsehsbonesView Post

Inside Britainís big, dumb halal pizza scandal

Hmmm. . . if Westerners are as tolerant as some folk hereabouts like to claim, why are they organising boycotts of chains that use halal meat? A body might think "tolerant" would be "I won't eat there, but they can do as they please."

"That turns out not to be the case."
--Captain Lord Roderick Blaine, The Mote in God's Eye

Is Halal just another choice on the menu, then what is that problem.

http://www.halalrc.org/images/Resear...Guidelines.pdf

http://www.ifanca.org/halalfoodserv/...0Operators.pdf
 
JLM
#24
Quote: Originally Posted by SalView Post

I do not eat deli meat because it is not the best choice to make from a health perspective (for me). I get to make the choice.


Yep, deli meat is mostly crap, two exceptions being head cheese and roast beef.
 
Goober
+2
#25
Quote: Originally Posted by JLMView Post

Yep, deli meat is mostly crap, two exceptions being head cheese and roast beef.

No for both.
One is completely disgusting, the other is full of chems added.
 
Spade
+1
#26

Head Cheese - YouTube



Hogs Head Cheese with Delphine and Guests - YouTube

 
gerryh
#27
Quote: Originally Posted by TecumsehsbonesView Post

So, "we don't suck as bad as some others" is your standard for excellence? Outstanding. Set the bar low enough and you can be sure to clear it.


It's your standard for gays. Remember?
 
Blackleaf
#28
Quote: Originally Posted by TecumsehsbonesView Post

Inside Britainís big, dumb halal pizza scandal

Hmmm. . . if Westerners are as tolerant as some folk hereabouts like to claim, why are they organising boycotts of chains that use halal meat?

Why should we be "tolerant" about things which shouldn't be tolerated? Why should we be "tolerant" about halal meat? Why should non-Christians be unknowingly fed Halal meat, even if they don't want to eat it, just to cater for the tiny proportion of the British population - less than 3% - that is Muslim? Why should the 97% eat Islamic food just because 3% are Muslim?

Like I always say - It's another situation of the vast non-Muslim population having to cater for the tiny Muslim population. It's another case of British culture being Islamicised just to cater for a tiny proportion of people who are Muslim. It's wrong.

It's about time Halal was banned in Britain. Countries such as Sweden, Denmark, Switzerland and several other European countries have banned this barbaric practise. It's time Britain followed suit. The EU is wanting to ban Halal it in all its member states.

I'm getting fed up of Britain bending over backwards to "tolerate" foreign cultures. Foreigners moving to Britain should adopt British laws and customs, not vice versa.


We Muslims should be appalled by the sale of halal meat by stealth

9 May 2014
Daily Mail

(By Dr Taj Hargey, Director of the Muslim Educational Centre of Oxford and Imam of the Oxford Islamic Congregation)

When I walk into a restaurant, Iím usually a hungry customer. It shouldnít be important to the waiter what my religion is.

I could be a Muslim, a Christian or a Jedi warrior. Whatever my beliefs, I have a right to enjoy my meal without any hidden agendas.

Pizza Express, one of Britainís favourite food institutions, admitted this week that all the chicken it serves has been killed according to traditional halal methods. The blood was drained from the bird and prayers were recited during the slaughter.


Production line: Chickens after ritual slaughter in a halal abattoir in Burgundy, France

Now it turns out that the meat in many supermarkets is also halal ó though there is no recognisable label to indicate this fact to consumers.

This is covert religious extremism and creeping Islamic fundamentalism making its way into Britain by the back door. It is completely wrong that the food sensitivities of Britainís Muslims ó who amount to just 4.8 per cent of the population ó should take precedence over the other 95 per cent.

Halal meat should never be forced on customers without their knowing, surreptitiously and using clandestine methods. Itís unfair to everyone, non-Muslims and Muslims alike. Itís deception on a grand scale for the former, while it could fuel bitter resentment against the latter.

Of course I understand that many of my fellow Muslims, who are moderates not militants, will feel strongly that they wish to eat meat that has been killed by customary halal methods ó and they have a perfect right to do so.


With halal meat blood is drained from the animals and prayers are recited during the slaughter

But many misconceptions need to be clarified, because I am certain that most people donít understand where these rules about food came from, and who benefits from them.

First of all, if youíve just tucked into a chicken pizza without knowing it was halal meat, it hasnít done you any physical harm. But it hasnít done you any spiritual good, either. Muslims donít believe that religious observance can be used as a holy shortcut or a ticket to paradise.

Furthermore, the idea that Muslims cannot eat non-halal food ó food that is suitable for Christians ó is completely wrong, and it has no theological basis in the Koran, the supreme text of Islam.

Iím a dedicated Muslim, a devout religionist, an imam and intellectual scholar of Islam, but I eat whatever food is placed before me, with the obvious exception of pork. If youíre kind enough to invite me to your home, I would eat whatever meat you chose to serve: turkey, lamb, chicken, beef Ö anything except pork.

This is perfectly permissible in Islam, and the crucial thing is that it doesnít have to be halal meat. No one wants an imam to be quoting chapter and verse of the Koran over the turkey sandwiches, but it is important that everyone understands how clearcut the teaching is.


Chapter five, verse five of the Koran states: ĎThis day all good things are made lawful for you. The food of the People of the Book [meaning the Jews and the Christians] is lawful for you, and your food is lawful for them Öí

There are no ifs and buts about that. The Koran does expect us to be thankful for our food, however.

I teach in Oxford, and when I go to dining halls in the university, I eat what is available. I must say, Iím partial to a slice of steak.

At the point of consumption, before I put the food in my mouth, I give thanks, with a brief prayer that Muslims have been saying for more than 1,400 years.

I say: ĎIn the name of God, the most Merciful, the most Gracious.í Christian readers will recognise what Iím doing ó itís very similar to the concept of saying grace.

The Koran says we cannot eat slaughtered meat unless the name of God exclusively has been pronounced over it, not any other deity or idol.

So, it does not really matter if, when that cow or lamb was slaughtered, the abattoir workers were saying prayers or playing heavy rock music at full blast on their radios. The individual prayer just prior to actual consumption makes the meat fit ó halal ó to eat.



Last edited by Blackleaf; May 10th, 2014 at 05:45 AM..
 
Spade
#29
Kosher and Halal | Meat Science
 
Serryah
+3
#30
Easy solution: have some priest or whoever bless the meat as well, or say a _________ (fill in the religion of choice) prayer over your meal before you eat, to wipe out that Islamic contimination**. It's covered, all good, enjoy a pizza.

Mountain's out of mole hills. Yeesh.

As it is, I don't get it and maybe that's cause I don't really care. Chicken is chicken, I'm not Muslim so doesn't matter to me if it's blessed or not. All I do care about is if the animal suffers more than it should. Until now no one cared, right? So why suddenly is it a big deal?

(** sarcasm is your friend)
 

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