Is this a Hate Crime? Really???

[Goober]

Pride flags burned at Fort McMurray’s first gay pride event, RCMP investigating | National Post
Based on security camera video viewed by LGBTQmunity vice-president Michael Kenny, around 11 p.m. the theft of one of the flags is visible. The incident occurred in the parking lot outside of the pub. Kenny said that once the burning took place, security guards approached those involved and asked them not to return to the pub. Kenny has since turned the videos over to the RCMP, who are reviewing them.

As someone who has grown up in Fort McMurray, Parsons said that the city has been “moving in the right direction” when it comes to accepting the LGBTQ community.

“I have been watching Fort McMurray change and grow,” Parsons said. “But there are still changes that have to happen within the community.”

At at this time, Kenny said they are viewing the incident as a hate crime, but he believes issues such as these are more about awareness than hate.

 

[karrie]

Was it meant to be a fuzzy bunny crime?

I think anytime you go ahead and burn a symbol, you're sending a pretty loud and clear message to those who associate themselves with what that symbol represents. Anyone with any knowledge of any history in this world, anywhere, knows the significance of such an action.

 

[SLM]

Any less than burning a cross on someone's lawn? It's about the symbolism isn't it?

Having said that however, I'm not a huge fan of the "hate crime" label but mostly because I think too many people over use it and abuse it. But that doesn't mean it's not a real thing.

 

[DaSleeper]

And burning the Canadian flag is hunky dory.........got it

 

[Goober]

Was it meant to be a fuzzy bunny crime?

I think anytime you go ahead and burn a symbol, you're sending a pretty loud and clear message to those who associate themselves with what that symbol represents. Anyone with any knowledge of any history in this world, anywhere, knows the significance of such an action.

Not defending the theft. So we do not have to bring that in.
People burn Religious texts all the time. Many burn their National Flag. Each act sends a significant message, yes.

 

[karrie]

And burning the Canadian flag is hunky dory.........got it

well, burning a country's flag carries a different symbolism, historically speaking. Is it good? No. But it doesn't spark the same fears in a citizenry as this would spark for gays in Fort Mac, right?

 

[SLM]

And burning the Canadian flag is hunky dory.........got it

I'm not a fan of flag burning, I think it's a rather lame way to express yourself. But, and this is just off the top of my head, if you have Canadian's burning the Canadian flag, it's people protesting using a symbol that represents them. If you have a group burning the Pride flags, they're burning a symbol that doesn't represent them, so it seems more, I don't know, targeted. Does that make any sense?

Again, not a fan of flag burning or particularly of the term 'hate crime' but really why else would someone burn the Pride flag, in a parking lot outside a pub? I mean, people can talk all they want about 'self expression' but we know it's a bunch of drunken yahoos who just don't really like them homos. Well, we can presume that anyhow, chances are.

I see it as more like a Neo-Nazi group burning a Jewish flag, it would be an act of animosity, hatred, etc.

 

[Goober]

well, burning a country's flag carries a different symbolism, historically speaking. Is it good? No. But it doesn't spark the same fears in a citizenry as this would spark for gays in Fort Mac, right?

U.S. Afghanistan commanders condemn Florida church’s Koran-burning plan | FaithWorld

 

[DaSleeper]

well, burning a country's flag carries a different symbolism, historically speaking. Is it good? No. But it doesn't spark the same fears in a citizenry as this would spark for gays in Fort Mac, right?

Stealing the flag is theft......but hate crime....

If the firebugs had bought the flag and burned it in public.....would it be considered a hate crime?

If protesters in Toronto would do that during the gay pride parade.....could they be charged with a hate crime?

U.S. Afghanistan commanders condemn Florida church’s Koran-burning plan | FaithWorld

Condemning something is not charging them with a crime.

 

[karrie]

I'm with SLM about the slippery nature of hate crime laws, but.... on first impressions, these 'firebugs', were sending a pretty clear message to a group of people directly at hand, not to a religion a world away, not a country, to a small group of their neighbours.

I don't fault the police for wanting to look into exactly what message was being sent, and if there is something they need to do beyond charge some drunks with stealing a flag.

 

[SLM]

Personally instead of Hate Crime Laws per se, I'd much prefer to see provisions for special circumstances where a crime has been particularly heinous or a specific group has been targeted.( We all know that it does happen.) The laws we have are pretty much sufficient on their own and I believe this might cut down on abuse/misuse.

At the same time though, I have to wonder about why, in these specific circumstances, they chose to do what they did. Does it represent hate, animosity? Is it just a bunch of drunken yahoos, essentially harmless? I don't think you can count on the later, and you really do need to be wary of the former. It's the kind of scenario that could brew and lead to things like what happened to Mathew Sheppard.

 

[Goober]

I'm with SLM about the slippery nature of hate crime laws, but.... on first impressions, these 'firebugs', were sending a pretty clear message to a group of people directly at hand, not to a religion a world away, not a country, to a small group of their neighbours.

I don't fault the police for wanting to look into exactly what message was being sent, and if there is something they need to do beyond charge some drunks with stealing a flag.

A couple of idiots left a bar, stole and burned the flag.

Personally instead of Hate Crime Laws per se, I'd much prefer to see provisions for special circumstances where a crime has been particularly heinous or a specific group has been targeted.( We all know that it does happen.) The laws we have are pretty much sufficient on their own and I believe this might cut down on abuse/misuse.

At the same time though, I have to wonder about why, in these specific circumstances, they chose to do what they did. Does it represent hate, animosity? Is it just a bunch of drunken yahoos, essentially harmless? I don't think you can count on the later, and you really do need to be wary of the former. It's the kind of scenario that could brew and lead to things like what happened to Mathew Sheppard.

Theft they can be charged with. How would that extend to demonstrations where some break the law?

 

[karrie]

A couple of idiots left a bar, stole and burned the flag.

Likely. But.... do you want to be the cop that ignored it and has someone turned up curb stomped for being gay?

 

[Goober]

Likely. But.... do you want to be the cop that ignored it and has someone turned up curb stomped for being gay?

I never stated ignore it. Charge them with theft. Who knows who they are, who know why they did it.
Even if they detest Gays, it is not a hate crime.

 

[gerryh]

I never stated ignore it. Charge them with theft. Who knows who they are, who know why they did it.
Even if they detest Gays, it is not a hate crime.

If they "detest" Gays and they burned the flag as a way of showing what they would like to do to Gays...then it's a hate crime.

 

[Nick Danger]

Even if they detest Gays, it is not a hate crime.

In Canada hate crime is defined as "A crime motivated by racial, sexual, or other prejudice, typically one involving violence." Should punishment be mitigated just because the crime might have been perpetrated by a drunken bonehead who had no clear understanding of what he was doing ?

 

[gerryh]

In Canada hate crime is defined as "A crime motivated by racial, sexual, or other prejudice, typically one involving violence." Should punishment be mitigated just because the crime might have been perpetrated by a drunken bonehead who had no clear understanding of what he was doing ?

Should being drunk be a mitigating factor in any crime?

 

[Nick Danger]

Should being drunk be a mitigating factor in any crime?

You're right, I unnecessarily confused the question. Let's go this route: Should punishment be mitigated because the perpetrator didn't consider the full implications of his actions? Perhaps didn't fully understand the legal implications ? Should he be able to use a "bonehead" defense the way some have tried to use the "drunk" defense?

 

[gerryh]

You're right, I unnecessarily confused the question. Let's go this route: Should punishment be mitigated because the perpetrator didn't consider the full implications of his actions? Perhaps didn't fully understand the legal implications ? Should he be able to use a "bonehead" defense the way some have tried to use the "drunk" defense?

Ignorance of the law is not a defense.

 

[Nick Danger]

Ignorance of the law is not a defense.

Then he's toast. Freedom of sexual orientation is guaranteed by Canada's Charter of Rights and Freedoms. What he did was an act of prejudice against people he didn't know based solely on their sexual orientation, I do believe that fits the legal definition of a hate crime.