Aboriginal status leads to refusal of extradition


dumpthemonarchy
#1
Another young, uneducated aboriginal person going nowhere. This is a benefit I could not receive, so it is not equal or fair. This race based law is detrimental to peace, order and good government. The judge, and judges before him are wrong.

Even many aboriginal women are against healing circles because most of the violence is conducted by men against women and men get off easy. This too is unjust.




Aboriginal status leads to refusal of extradition | The Chronicle Herald


Aboriginal status leads to refusal of extradition



TORONTO — Ontario’s top court ruled Friday that two men should not be extradited to the United States to face drug charges because of their aboriginal status.

“It would be contrary to the principles of fundamental justice” to send the men to the U.S., where their heritage would not be factored in to sentencing, the way it is in Canada, the Appeal Court ruled.

Factors under what is known as the Gladue principle are considered in Canadian law to try to offset systemic discrimination against aboriginal people.

The justice minister didn’t properly take these factors into account when he ordered Zachary Leonard and Rejean Gionet extradited, and for that he was wrong, the court ruled.

Leonard, a young member of the Rainy River First Nations with no criminal record, was arrested at a U.S. border crossing in 2006 when the van in which he was a passenger was found to be carrying 46,000 ecstasy pills.

If he is prosecuted in the U.S. he could face 19 years in prison.

Given his age, lack of a record, peripheral alleged involvement in the crime, his aboriginal status and steps he has taken to rehabilitate himself since then, he might not receive any jail time in Canada, the court said.

Gionet, a member of the Ginogaming First Nation, was allegedly involved in importing oxycodone into the U.S. from Canada in 2003 and 2004.

In the U.S. he would face six or seven years if he pleaded guilty and up to 10 years if convicted after a trial. In Canada, the sentence range is three to five years and he has already spent 3 1/2 years in custody.

Gladue, a Supreme Court of Canada decision from 1999, stated that factors such as dislocation and high unemployment combined with bias and systemic racism have contributed to the “grossly disproportionate” incarceration of aboriginal people.

It does not amount to reverse discrimination in the form of automatically lighter sentences or a “get out of jail free” card, the Appeal Court said.

But the courts in Canada must consider aboriginal heritage as a factor in sentencing because equality does not necessarily mean equal treatment, the court said.

Justice Minister Rob Nicholson “refused to apply the Gladue principle,” the Appeal Court ruled and quashed the extradition orders.
 
PoliticalNick
+2
#2
WTF?

Automatic lighter sentences is not reverse discrimination? Sure sounds like it to me. Equality does not mean equal treatment? Does this moron own a dictionary or thesaurus? This idiot judge has just publicly told all natives its ok to commit crimes because we will just pat you on the head and and give you a free pass.

46,000 ecstasy pills doesn't deserve jail? Sorry judge but 19 years might not be enough. If even 1/2% do harm to the user that's 230 people in hospital or dead even.

I always thought smuggling was one of those crimes that was supposed to get harsh punishment. This is just way too far out there to be funny. They aren't in trouble for shoplifting a hershey bar. This is major drug smuggling.

I'm at a loss. The judge, or panel, might just be in need of a pink slip and a severe beating.

Just dumbfounded! I don't get it.
 
Nuggler
+2
#3
A small tail wags a big dog.
 
CDNBear
+6
#4  Top Rated Post
Quote: Originally Posted by dumpthemonarchyView Post

This race based law is detrimental to peace, order and good government.

Actually, it isn't.

Public interest is still the primary consideration in the Gladue principle.

Since public interest is pretty much the fundamental principle of criminal law, Gladue is following the law.

Criminal justice isn't about revenge, it's about correcting abhorrent behavior and protecting the public. Hence in the publics interest.

Quote:

Even many aboriginal women are against healing circles because most of the violence is conducted by men against women and men get off easy. This too is unjust.

Healing circles are merely one part of entire diversion plan. There are whole lists of requirements for offenders to either participate in or adhere to.

Perhaps you should read about the Glague process before you talk about it.

Quote: Originally Posted by PoliticalNickView Post

Automatic lighter sentences is not reverse discrimination?

No such thing as automatic lighter sentences.

Quote:

Sure sounds like it to me.

Then you should stop reading dumpsters posts and read this...

Supreme Court of Canada - Decisions - R. v. Gladue

Community based justice programs are nothing new. See the Youth Justice Act, the Young Offenders Act, or community service sentences.

Quote:

I don't get it.

That's nothing new.
Last edited by CDNBear; Sep 25th, 2012 at 06:03 PM..
 
dumpthemonarchy
#5
Another bad piece of law from the bench.

We just keep letting aboriginals commit crime after crime and it's okay, because they are given more consideration by the justice system that is lost in the woods. This is not a good principle.
 
earth_as_one
+1
#6
Healing Circles = Good
Sharia Law = Bad

IMO, we either have one criminal justice system that applies to everyone equally, or the rules that allow First Nation criminals to face justice by a healing circle should also apply to other groups with their own justice system like Muslims with their Sharia Law.

For the record, I support one criminal justice system that applies to everyone equally regardless of race or religion. First Nation criminals can go through the healing circle process after they've been processed by Canada's criminal justice system.
 
karrie
+4
#7
Quote: Originally Posted by earth_as_oneView Post

Healing Circles = Good
Sharia Law = Bad

IMO, we either have one criminal justice system that applies to everyone equally, or the rules that allow First Nation criminals to face justice by a healing circle should also apply to other groups with their own justice system like Muslims with their Sharia Law.

For the record, I support one criminal justice system that applies to everyone equally regardless of race or religion. First Nation criminals can go through the healing circle process after they've been processed by Canada's criminal justice system.

The Gladue principle does not apply to whether or not you are found guilty of any given offense. It effects only sentencing. Sharia is a different set of laws. They aren't the same thing, even remotely.

As well, the Gladue principle is a direct result, whether we want to say it outright or not, of the fact that the Canadian government has perpetrated, in the eyes of the world, genocidal acts upon its first nations peoples, and having a statistically larger prison population of natives underscores the history of race inequality.

Canadian law is not based on retribution and doing a person maximum damage, it is based on rehabilitation and keeping the populace safe. Applying the Gladue principle to offenders doesn't negate that, and it's also not out of step with the way many white people are sentenced anyway.

Our prison systems long reflected the fact that without a prior history, with a community support system in place, and without posing a huge risk to the public, judges would trust white people to serve a variety of sentences...community services, rehabs, etc. We didn't need it spelled out in the law. This principle merely asks judges to consider a potential imbalance when sentencing.
 
The Old Medic
#8
Canada has done virtually everything possible to exterminate it's Native people's. They have attempted to destroy their cultures, they have literally destroyed their ancestral lands and rights, and they still discriminate against all of the native peoples of Canada.

Even following Supreme Court decisions, the Government still refuses to recognize any rights to the Métis, because they maintain that when they "granted" Manitoba Script" (which was worthless) to the Métis, they extinguished all rights they may have had as a people. The Federal Government, and almost all Provincial governments still fight against establishing any rights to the Métis.


Part of the Treaty of Paris, which ended the Revolutionary War, and established the USA and Canada as separate entities, was that all aboriginal peoples would have the right to cross the borders between the two areas, without passports and without taxes on their goods and chattels. This was reestablished in the treaty ending the War of 1812.

Canada absolutely refuses to honor those clauses. No American "Indian" is allowed to enter Canada freely, to seek work, etc. without a permit and a passport. They are taxed on any goods brought into the country. Any Canadian Indian that purchases goods in the USA and returns to Canada is also assessed duties.

The USA still honors those rights for Canadian Indians however, so long as they are 50% or more native. They can come to the USA, get a Social Security Card and work, without ever getting a "Green Card". They can also move all of their household possession into the USA without any duties. The Canadian Supreme Court has held that those treaties are meaningless, since the Canadian government never established any specific legislation implementing ay of the clauses. [By their interpretation, a State of War still exists between the USA and Canada.]

But, if Natives move back to Canada, they are assessed duties on those same household goods, unless they can prove that they were bought in Canada!

These are just TWO of the many areas where Canada still exercises massive discrimination against its Native peoples.
 
Goober
+2
#9
Quote: Originally Posted by dumpthemonarchyView Post

Another bad piece of law from the bench.

We just keep letting aboriginals commit crime after crime and it's okay, because they are given more consideration by the justice system that is lost in the woods. This is not a good principle.

You speak of principles yet have a well known hatred for First Nations. What a Wanker.
 
CDNBear
+2
#10
Quote: Originally Posted by dumpthemonarchyView Post

Another bad piece of law from the bench.

The "bench" doesn't create law.

Quote:

We just keep letting aboriginals commit crime after crime and it's okay...

No it isn't.

Quote:

This is not a good principle.

It's an excellent principle that non natives have had access to for centuries, and still do.

Just because you're poorly educated on what is available in the criminal justice system, doesn't make the Gladue principle 'not good'.

Quote: Originally Posted by earth_as_oneView Post

Healing Circles = Good
Sharia Law = Bad

Ummm...

Quote: Originally Posted by CDNBearView Post

Healing circles are merely one part of entire diversion plan. There are whole lists of requirements for offenders to either participate in or adhere to.

Beyond that, comparing a Healing Circle to Sharia Law is idiotic.

Quote:

IMO, we either have one criminal justice system that applies to everyone equally, or the rules that allow First Nation criminals to face justice by a healing circle should also apply to other groups with their own justice system like Muslims with their Sharia Law.

I know you have trouble with reality, especially when you think you can get a dig in on me. But the fact is, as stated above.
Quote:

For the record, I support one criminal justice system that applies to everyone equally regardless of race or religion.

No you don't.

Quote:

First Nation criminals can go through the healing circle process after they've been processed by Canada's criminal justice system.

I guess it's safe to say this is another topic you know little about, lol.
 
dumpthemonarchy
#11
Quote: Originally Posted by GooberView Post

You speak of principles yet have a well known hatred for First Nations. What a Wanker.

Hatred of FNs? Not so. We're judge getting made law on this issue because the lawyers see money here. An endless subsidy like many other businesses get in Canada.
 
CDNBear
#12
Quote: Originally Posted by dumpthemonarchyView Post

Hatred of FNs? Not so.

Yes so, lol.

Quote:

We're judge getting made law on this issue because the lawyers see money here.

Really? I can and have argued in front of a Judge, invoked Gladue and didn't charge a cent.

You really need to get out more.

Quote:

An endless subsidy like many other businesses get in Canada.

LOL, you really are stretching now.
 
Goober
+1
#13
Quote: Originally Posted by dumpthemonarchyView Post

Hatred of FNs? Not so. We're judge getting made law on this issue because the lawyers see money here. An endless subsidy like many other businesses get in Canada.

Oh we are well aware of what your idea is of Treaties that Canada and First Nations have signed. EAO hates Jews - you hate Aboriginals.
 
CDNBear
#14
Quote: Originally Posted by GooberView Post

Oh we are well aware of what your idea is of Treaties that Canada and First Nations have signed. EAO hates Jews - you hate Aboriginals.

EAO hates Aboriginals too, when he thinks it will get under my skin, lol.
 
PoliticalNick
+1
#15
Quote: Originally Posted by CDNBearView Post

Yes so, lol.

Really? I can and have argued in front of a Judge, invoked Gladue and didn't charge a cent.

You really need to get out more.

LOL, you really are stretching now.

So just where do you stand on someone involved in smuggling 46,000 ecstasy pills? Gladue still ok for you there or would you maybe think a little jail time is in order. Remember now if it was a bad batch that could be a lot of dead bodies.
 
dumpthemonarchy
#16
Quote: Originally Posted by GooberView Post

Oh we are well aware of what your idea is of Treaties that Canada and First Nations have signed. EAO hates Jews - you hate Aboriginals.

To be more precise, I hate laws that are unequal. The country does not need laws like this. We already have Occupy because of financial inequality, adding political equality for me is a non-starter.

I don't have to like anyone. Those who say, "You're a hater." I find so lame, so weak. Always trying to shut down a discussion that makes your head spin. Can't participate? Just shout hate. Will work against you. The Human Wrongs Tribunals are fading away. Lawyers like fear and ignorance. Keeps the money flowing.
 
earth_as_one
#17
Not only don't I hate anyone based on race or religion, I find the concept difficult to understand. How can anyone hate someone based on race or religion? That baffles me. I can understand how you can hate or dislike someone based on their actions. I support freedom of religion and multiculturalism. I've never written a negative comment about any race or religion.

I admit I don't like individuals who commit war criminals and commit crimes against humanity. I don't think Canada should treat one group of war criminals differently than another but we do... based on race/religion.

I wouldn't say I hate any First Nation person. I would say there is only one First Nation person that I don't like ...but it has nothing to to with them being First Nation people and everything to do with them being a rude and nasty ******* who slanders others with false accusations and deliberate lies in an attempt to pin defamatory labels on them... Is that too subtle???

Regarding healing circles... I am against substituting a healing circle punishment for one handed out by the criminal justice system. First Nation criminals can submit themselves to a healing circle after they've done their time in the criminal justice system.

But if you accept that healing circles can hand out punishment, then you should also accept that Muslims can also get punishment based on Sharia law.

Regarding historical and present injustices suffered by First Nation people. I support fair and just compensation for past wrongs as well as settling land claims in a fair and just manner. I support free post secondary education, subsidized housing, free health and dental care, preferential hiring (all other factors equal, the First Nation candidate gets the job) and other incentives to help raise First Nations people with potential who deserve assistance out of poverty. But I don't support giving First Nation criminals preferential treatment, lighter sentences or the ability to opt out of the criminal justice system.
Last edited by earth_as_one; Sep 27th, 2012 at 08:20 AM..
 
Goober
#18
Quote: Originally Posted by earth_as_oneView Post

Not only don't I hate anyone based on race or religion, I find the concept difficult to understand. How can anyone hate someone based on race or religion? That baffles me.

I can understand how you can hate or dislike someone based on their actions. I wouldn't say I hate any First Nation person. I would say there is only one First Nation person that I don't like ...but it has nothing to to with them being First Nation people and everything to do with them being a rude and nasty ******* who slanders others with false accusations and deliberate lies in an attempt to pin defamatory labels on them... Is that too subtle???

Regarding healing circles... I am against substituting a healing circle punishment for one handed out by the criminal justice system. First Nation criminals can submit themselves to a healing circle after they've done their time in the criminal justice system.

Not according to the SCoC of Canada. The Gladue ruling does not apply to any other the First nations persons.
Then you state that First nations must be punished twice - First by the Justice System and then be First Nations-
Read the ruling- It states why quite clearly -
 
DaSleeper
+1
#19
What about "Treaty Rights"?????

Treaty and Aboriginal Rights - JusticeBC - Criminal Justice Information and Support - Province of British Columbia

RESTORATIVE JUSTICE: A NATIONAL CONSULTATION - A Consultation Paper


They were here first......Not so with sharia law
 
earth_as_one
#20
I read the summary, I get the idea and I disagree with it.

My understanding is that Gladue has nothing to do with First Nations people being here first. It has to do with the damage the Canadian government caused by historical and current injustices. That may be true, but I disagree with this as an excuse or cause for leniency regarding criminal activity ie: smuggling drugs, assaulting someone, stealing, rape...

This ruling gives preferential treatment to First Nation criminals. I agree with judges taking into account the circumstances of First Nation criminals as well as any criminal that they sentence. That's why they are called Judges... and I support Judges being able to use judgement...

I only support preferential treatment of First Nations people who have demonstrated potential (by getting through high school) and respect the law. I disagree with race/religious based parallel justice systems. The law (including appropriate sentences from crimes) should apply to everyone equally.
Last edited by earth_as_one; Sep 27th, 2012 at 08:33 AM..
 
DaSleeper
+1
#21
Quote: Originally Posted by earth_as_oneView Post

I read the summary, I get the idea and I disagree with it.

Whooptee-do...that's just tough ain't it???

Lots of law I don't like.....live with it...or petition to change it....and quit crying.
 
karrie
+4
#22
Quote: Originally Posted by earth_as_oneView Post


This ruling gives preferential treatment to First Nation criminals. I agree with judges taking into account the circumstances of First Nation criminals as well as any criminal that they sentence. That's why they are called Judges... and I support Judges being able to use judgement...
.

As has been pointed out.... Gladue is a principle to remind judges to consider race issues when sentencing, but it doesn't mean they have to sentence differently. Petros posted an article not long ago about first nations grandparents in Regina who were told 'tough luck' when they attempted to invoke their background at their trial for abusing their granddaughter. The Gladue principle does not stop judges from giving appropriate sentences, it does not stop judges from being the deciding factor.
 
petros
+1
#23
Personally, I'd stay the hell away from a sentencning circle if convicted of a crime. They look at intent and circumstances first and foremeost. If I crossed the line my intent of doing harm would be full blown. They sentence by what their gut tells them not black and white like what a judge has to go by.
 
PoliticalNick
+1
#24
Whatever happened to the basic principles like Justice is Blind, and 'everyone is equal under the law'.

Ever loook at a statue of lady justice (the chick holding scales) she is blindfolded. This is so she cannot look at you and allow your age or race or gender to influence any decisions.
 
karrie
+1
#25
Quote: Originally Posted by PoliticalNickView Post

Whatever happened to the basic principles like Justice is Blind, and 'everyone is equal under the law'.

Ever loook at a statue of lady justice (the chick holding scales) she is blindfolded. This is so she cannot look at you and allow your age or race or gender to influence any decisions.

What happened is it became clear that judges aren't blind. They were less likely to give natives sentencing deals than they were people of their own skin colour.
 
earth_as_one
#26
Cultural sensitivity training as well as peer review of their decisions would have been better ways to deal with that issue.
 
PoliticalNick
#27
Quote: Originally Posted by karrieView Post

What happened is it became clear that judges aren't blind. They were less likely to give natives sentencing deals than they were people of their own skin colour.

That is an issue with the judges, not the law. The issue should have been addressed at the source of the problem. Fire a few judges and the rest will smarten up.
 
karrie
+1
#28
Firing a few judges for being too hard on natives, setting up native sentencing review panels.... yeah, that's not special racial treatment. seriously, people are splitting hairs here.
 
L Gilbert
+1
#29
Quote: Originally Posted by PoliticalNickView Post

That is an issue with the judges, not the law. The issue should have been addressed at the source of the problem. Fire a few judges and the rest will smarten up.

Good luck with that; http://www.canlaw.com/judges/conduct_judges.htm
 
CDNBear
+2
#30
Look people, Justice has to be in the publics interest...

Look it up. I'm not here to educate the weak minded.

Gladue, is all about meeting the publics interests.

This comes from the theory behind sentencing, found in Section 218 of the CCoC.

If you can't wrap your heads around that, no one can help you.

Quote: Originally Posted by PoliticalNickView Post

So just where do you stand on someone involved in smuggling 46,000 ecstasy pills?

It's a crime.

Quote:

Gladue still ok for you there or would you maybe think a little jail time is in order.

Gladue is still OK with me. I've seen it work way to well to think any differently.

Oh, did I mention I work with at risk Native youth, the bulk of which are in the court system, in one way or another, and Gladue is most definitely involved?

Quote:

Remember now if it was a bad batch that could be a lot of dead bodies.

I don't deal in maybe's.

Quote: Originally Posted by dumpthemonarchyView Post

To be more precise, I hate laws that are unequal.

Then start bitching about parental rights laws, youth justice laws, house arrest sentencing and so on.

Quote:

Those who say, "You're a hater." I find so lame, so weak.

I actually agree, if it were the first thing thrown out at you.

But it wasn't.

I tried in vain to reason with you, showed you countless factual documents, you ignored each and every one of them.

You're a hater. Only haters ignore reality, for their own perverse version.

Quote:

Can't participate?

No, you can't. You hate to much.

Quote: Originally Posted by earth_as_oneView Post

Not only don't I hate anyone based on race or religion, I find the concept difficult to understand.

But you do it so well.

Quote:

How can anyone hate someone based on race or religion?

You tell us, you hate Jews.

Quote:

I would say there is only one First Nation person that I don't like ...

I appreciate that.

Quote:

...but it has nothing to to with them being First Nation people and everything to do with them being a rude and nasty ******* who slanders others with false accusations and deliberate lies in an attempt to pin defamatory labels on them... Is that too subtle???

Nope, but it is an excellent example of an internet bully, lol.

Quote:

Regarding healing circles...

Healing Circles are not the only part of a Gladue process. This is the second time you've been told that.

Quote:

But if you accept that healing circles can hand out punishment, then you should also accept that Muslims can also get punishment based on Sharia law.

Only if you're retarded.

Quote: Originally Posted by earth_as_oneView Post

This ruling gives preferential treatment to First Nation criminals.

No it doesn't, lol.

Quote:

I agree with judges taking into account the circumstances of First Nation criminals as well as any criminal that they sentence. That's why they are called Judges... and I support Judges being able to use judgement...

That is exactly what happens in the Justice system, everyones past is considered.
Quote:

I disagree with race/religious based parallel justice systems.

That's good, because this isn't a parallel justice system. You should read more, since you have no idea what you're talking about, lol.

Quote:

The law (including appropriate sentences from crimes) should apply to everyone equally.

It does.

Quote: Originally Posted by karrieView Post

As has been pointed out.... Gladue is a principle to remind judges to consider race issues when sentencing, but it doesn't mean they have to sentence differently. Petros posted an article not long ago about first nations grandparents in Regina who were told 'tough luck' when they attempted to invoke their background at their trial for abusing their granddaughter. The Gladue principle does not stop judges from giving appropriate sentences, it does not stop judges from being the deciding factor.

It also won't stop the misinformed from making things up as they go along.

Quote: Originally Posted by karrieView Post

Firing a few judges for being too hard on natives, setting up native sentencing review panels.... yeah, that's not special racial treatment. seriously, people are splitting hairs here.

Some people can't see the forests for the trees, lol.
Last edited by CDNBear; Sep 27th, 2012 at 05:27 PM..
 

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