Israel - The Right to exist as a State?

[Goober]

Israel - The Right to exist as a State? Revised from an older thread

Does Israel have the right to a State that is free from attacks.

Secure borders and free from attack by Islamic Terror Groups that could in all proability have free movement in the West bank or gaza- depends upon wht Govt is elected or takes office by force.
Gaza- Belonged to Egypt- Return it to Egypt

Agreement on over 96 % of the land for Israel- West Bank- Gaza have been negotiated- 4 % left

Should Arab Countries accept a substantial number of the Palestinian ( Refugees-Displaced Persons) I do not consider the vast majority to be qualified as refugees and neither does the UN definition- they are Displaced Persons - many of those present today in these camps, the fathers and mothers left Israel on the advice of Arabs that were planning to destroy Israel and murder Jews.

Stop all funding to Hamas- Until Hamas agrees to recognize Israel and sit at the peace table- If legally elected – And that Palestine has a Democracy with full rights and legal protections for all Palestinians. Rule of Law- Not the Gun – is a necessity.

Jerusalem - Should it be a divided capital - If so why – Jordan lost that right in the 67 War- The Palestinians in my opinion have no right to Jeresaleum as their Capital-

Gaza- Belonged to Egypt- Return it to Egypt

41 Maps Covering 5,000 Years of History - Israeli-Palestinian Conflict - ProCon.org

Map - UN Partition & The First Arab/ Israeli War 1947 - 1948 - 175 - Israeli-Palestinian Conflict - ProCon.org
Israel - Pre 1967 War
Map - Israel, Egypt & Jordan 1957 - 1967 - 175 - Israeli-Palestinian Conflict - ProCon.org

Map - 2000 - Close-up of West Bank & Gaza - Israeli-Palestinian Conflict - ProCon.org
Israel - 2000

United Nations Security Council Resolution 242 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

List of United Nations resolutions concerning Israel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Palestine 1918 to 1948

Timeline of British Rule in Palestine (1918-1947)

palestine 1918 - Google Search

Mandatory Palestine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The British Mandate for Palestine

Palestine During the British Mandate

The Arabs in Palestine

Arab citizens of Israel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Balfour Declaration - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Arab-Israeli conflict - Basic facts

Israeli History/Six-Day War, Yom Kippur War, Settlements - Wikibooks, open books for an open world

Palestinian refugee - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Goober]

For those that think Israel should not retaliate against attacks. Please read this article.

These freaks want one thing- Destroy Israel- Kill Jews and Muslims as well. Yes many are uninformed on the ME and it is the far Left wing and some others. They need a reality check.

As the Sinai Goes, So Too the Golan Heights? | World | TIME.com

The air strikes by the Egyptian military against rebels based on Egyptian territory in Sinai overnight Wednesday will have alarmed Israeli security chieftains, confirming that Cairo has lost control of the desert territory over which the two countries fought three wars, and is now mounting a full-blown military campaign to reassert its authority. Egypt’s military — which operates independently of its elected civilian government — was spurred into action after border posts were targeted in a series of attacks on Sunday and Tuesday by what are believed to be jihadist groups looking to stage attacks on Israel, and to undermine the authority of both the Egyptian military, the fledgling government of President Mohamed Morsy— a longtime Muslim Brotherhood leader— and of the Hamas administration that runs the adjacent Palestinian enclave of Gaza.

 

[Spade]

I think, Goober, you have confused many of us with those who care.

 

[The Old Medic]

Unfortunately, as Spade says, all too many people simply do not care. The only thing they REALLY care about is their own self. To a lesser degree, they care somewhat about family, country, etc.

It is EXACTLY those kinds of people that allowed World War II to occur. They didn't give a damn about what the Germans were doing, and virtually no one cared about the Jews, Gypsies, Homosexuals, Physically and Mentally Disabled, etc., etc.

They don't give a gnats fart if the Iranians get a Nuclear Bomb; or close the Straight of Hormuz, or anything else, until it directly affects them.

BUT, once it does, the are the types that scream the loudest about Justice, "bomb the dirty bast*rds back to the stone age", etc., etc.

They never seem to be able to figure out that they, and the many just like them, are exactly what allowed the conditions for a major war to develop.

 

[Goober]

I think, Goober, you have confused many of us with those who care.

Perhaps you are right- and judging from what I see I fear you are correct. And that means more killing.

 

[Uranass]

Israel - The Right to exist as a State? Revised from an older thread

Does Israel have the right to a State that is free from attacks.

Secure borders and free from attack by Islamic Terror Groups that could in all proability have free movement in the West bank or gaza- depends upon wht Govt is elected or takes office by force.
Gaza- Belonged to Egypt- Return it to Egypt

For one, tying Israel's so called right to exist to the current situation is disingenuous, there was no Hamas 50 years ago and even if it did exist that wouldn't actually justify Zionism or make it somehow a right, so what "right" either moral or even legal had Zionist leaders in choosing an area that was largely inhabited by natives who were very openly against it, to create their little colonial state?

Agreement on over 96 % of the land for Israel- West Bank- Gaza have been negotiated- 4 % left

If Israel has a right to exist, And it seems your position is that Palestinians should recognize this right of Israel to colonize their lands, then it is of extreme hypocrisy for you be anti settlement (I am making the assumption that you are, as the average "moderate" pro Israeli is, thought they are a minority today) and I would argue it is very discriminatory of you to deny Israel's right to continue colonizing the West Bank or as Jews call it (Judea and Samaria) which has much more significance to Jews as its name implies than say Tel Aviv which was almost built from scratch, you've already said Israel should not give up its other colonies in Jerusalem so why stop at that? if Israel has a right to 1% then it can claim under that same justification am yet to hear, the entire 100% of Eretz Yisrael.

Should Arab Countries accept a substantial number of the Palestinian ( Refugees-Displaced Persons) I do not consider the vast majority to be qualified as refugees and neither does the UN definition- they are Displaced Persons - many of those present today in these camps, the fathers and mothers left Israel on the advice of Arabs that were planning to destroy Israel and murder Jews.

This is also interesting only to highlight hypocrisy on Zionism's part, there is currently a law in Israel almost as old as the state itself that is called the "Law of Return", basically as you've guessed already it allows any Jewish person anywhere in the world to "return" and become an Israeli citizen. The Israeli national anthem speaks about hope of such return to Zion and Jerusalem. So considering that this hope and this right is given to people who weren't even considered displaced for the past what, thousand years? then how can the Palestinian demand be ridiculous when its 60 years old, with actual refugees still alive, and the families of those who died still inheriting their parents' and grandparents' property? (in the form of land deeds), proof for a claim the 2000 year old counterpart of which can't possibly be able to produce, you can't have one but not the other...

Stop all funding to Hamas- Until Hamas agrees to recognize Israel and sit at the peace table- If legally elected – And that Palestine has a Democracy with full rights and legal protections for all Palestinians. Rule of Law- Not the Gun – is a necessity.

While of course I hope that happens, it conveys nothing as to Israel's right to exist, Hamas is simply a predictable reaction to Israel's forced existence.

Jerusalem - Should it be a divided capital - If so why – Jordan lost that right in the 67 War- The Palestinians in my opinion have no right to Jeresaleum as their Capital-

I think I've covered that

 

[MapleDog]

Right to exist yes but not to do to others what Adolph A-Hole did to them.

 

[earth_as_one]

I was looking for the check box for "Palestinians have a right to a state with secure borders"...

 

[The Old Medic]

The Palestinians had the opportunity to have a State, with secure borders, and they refused to accept it.

This was in 1947, when the partition of the British Mandate in Palestine was approved by the United Nations.

From 1948, when the Muslims attacked the new State of Israel, until 1967, when they lost the entire West Bank, Gaza, the Golan Heights and all of Egypt east of the Suez Canal, the West Bank and Gaza were under the total control of the "supporters" of the Palestinians. They adamantly refused to allow the creation of the State of Palestine.

The Israeli's have been repeatedly attacked by their neighbors, and have lost thousands of their citizens to murder by bombs, bullets and even drivers that deliberately target women, children and the elderly. Fatah, Hezbollah and Hamas all still call for the total destruction of Israel in their charters.

Maple Dog, you are 100% wrong. The Israeli's have never attempted to exterminate the Palestinians. However, former SS leaders from Germany are known to have been in senior advisory positions with a number of the Muslim States surrounding Israel, and to have been highly placed in the various Palestinian factions.

Yes, the Palestinians have the right to their own State, with secure borders. BUT, they do not have the right to create a state with the primary aim of the destruction of Israel, and the murder of all of the Jews.

 

[earth_as_one]

Unfortunately, as Spade says, all too many people simply do not care. The only thing they REALLY care about is their own self. To a lesser degree, they care somewhat about family, country, etc.

It is EXACTLY those kinds of people that allowed World War II to occur. They didn't give a damn about what the Germans were doing, and virtually no one cared about the Jews, Gypsies, Homosexuals, Physically and Mentally Disabled, etc., etc.

They don't give a gnats fart if the Iranians get a Nuclear Bomb; or close the Straight of Hormuz, or anything else, until it directly affects them.

BUT, once it does, the are the types that scream the loudest about Justice, "bomb the dirty bast*rds back to the stone age", etc., etc.

They never seem to be able to figure out that they, and the many just like them, are exactly what allowed the conditions for a major war to develop.

Actually most people are well aware of threats to Israel. What most people don't consider is that the good people of Tehran, Beirut, Amman, Cairo, Damascus... have lived under the constant threat of nuclear annihilation since the 1970's. Yet our news portrays Israel as threatened by Iranian nukes, even though it should be clear to everyone by now that if Iran wanted nuclear weapons, they'd have built and tested a nuke by now. Most of news portrays Israeli as victims and Palestinians as terrorists. Few Canadians are aware of the oppression and injustice suffered by the people who had the misfortune of living on land Zionists believe gave to Jews.

Last week's news that didn't make our news:

This Week in Palestine week 32 2008
Friday August 08
This Week in Palestine week 32 2008 - International Middle East Media Center

Israeli soldiers attacked a funeral procession and killed a 17 year old youth.

Israel soldiers attacked the weekly non-violent protest at the workplace of shame (construction of the concentration camp wall going up around the peaceful village of Nil'in), using tear gas, rubber bullets and feces, injuring injuring three and abducting two others.

In Gaza, as the unilateral Palestinian ceasefire enters its 7th week, the Palestinian death toll hits 227 as a cancer patient dies as a direct consequence of Israel's humanitarian aid blockade which blocks medical supplies from entering Gaza and prevents sick people from leaving Gaza to get medical treatment.

In the West Bank, Israeli gunfire killed a Palestinian civilian and wounded two others. Also Israeli soldiers made 38 invasions kidnapping 49 Palestinians, including 3 children. (An arrest would involve charges and a timely appearance in court, but since these people are never charged and held until Palestinian officials meet Israeli demands, they are technically kidnappings and abductions. Children of people of interest are routinely abducted and maltreated until the person of interest turns themselves in in exchange for the release of their children - aka a hostage) 1718 Palestinians including children are currently held in Israeli dungeons without charges. Some of these people are militants, but many are civilians, related to people of interest and political prisoners.

Israeli settlers in illegal Jewish only colonies in the West Bank continued to throw stones at Palestinian cars. They also broke into and trashed several Palestinian homes and laid a severe beating on an eighty year old man, who remains in hospital with non-life threatening injuries. No charges have been laid against against the Israeli settlers responsible for these crimes.

Would you like to know what happened the week before last?

This is the Palestinian experience since the Zionists showed up and starting cleansing the holy land of non-Jews. Our leaders defend Israelis and our news reports the Israeli version of events. But for the most part both ignore the suffering of Palestinians, just like they ignore Jewish suffering in Europe during the 1930's. So yes I agree that more people should speak up against oppression and injustice... even if the victims are Palestinians...

 

[Goober]

I was looking for the check box for "Palestinians have a right to a state with secure borders"...

That was overlooked but it goes without saying- Palestine has a right to secure borders and the ensure that attacks against Israel- Jews- their own people stop- Same with Jews attacking Arabs that are citizens of Palestinian or Israel - same with both sides living side by side with each other.
Also the Rule of Law- Now the West Bank and Gaza do not really have the rule of law- The institution's are corrupted - Hamas - well they took power using the Gun.

 

[TenPenny]

Unfortunately, as Spade says, all too many people simply do not care. The only thing they REALLY care about is their own self. To a lesser degree, they care somewhat about family, country, etc.

Or, when both sides are demonstrably evil, many people can't be bothered to figure out which side is the lesser evil.

 

[Goober]

Or, when both sides are demonstrably evil, many people can't be bothered to figure out which side is the lesser evil.

Well on the Israeli side you have the hard line and they have the right to a greater Israel- which will not happen- then you have the majority that want peace and free from attacks- The Arabs also have moderates but they alos have those that base their existence on destroying Israel-

And moderate Arabs- Palestinians have been targeted by these groups from threats to death.

 

[MapleDog]

Maple Dog, you are 100% wrong. The Israeli's have never attempted to exterminate the Palestinians. However, former SS leaders from Germany are known to have been in senior advisory positions with a number of the Muslim States surrounding Israel, and to have been highly placed in the various Palestinian factions.

From things i've heard and read,the israeli army used illegal weapons,and apparently told any nation criticising them to STFU.
would be simpler for them to find another promised land,than stay surrounded by nations that hates them.

 

[lone wolf]

I always figured Britian had a much right to give away Cyprus as it did the site of PalIzzyHezbolZion.

 

[Uranass]

Well on the Israeli side you have the hard line and they have the right to a greater Israel- which will not happen- then you have the majority that want peace and free from attacks- The Arabs also have moderates but they alos have those that base their existence on destroying Israel-

And moderate Arabs- Palestinians have been targeted by these groups from threats to death.

which again says nothing about Israel's supposed right to exist. Israel refuses Palestinians the right of return saying (and I might add very correctly) that such a right would destroy Israel as a Jewish state. The statement of course is supposed to evoke shame at the one making it but in reality all it accomplishes is to highlight how much "right" the state has for existence, that doing the 'just' thing in having the kicked natives and their families return means the end of this supposedly brilliant exemplary democracy which is light unto the nations. Lol.

 

[Niflmir]

I don't think anybody has a right to draw a line in the sand and say, "I will shoot or imprison you if you cross that line without getting my permission first."

I feel badly about my own country's borders first, though. Of course, by right I mean the sort of inalienable human right sort of right. If might is right, than everybody has that right... So yeah, I guess everyone has that right who can back it up.

 

[damngrumpy]

You have to remember this is a family feud that goes back to the Old Testament.
Do you really see and end to it?
It goes back to a leading religious leader having sex with a slave girl and the wife
getting upset to the point where the girl and the child are booted out of the home.
Sometimes the Bible is a good read (tongue in cheek)
and we should understand
its about revenge, rejection and fear.
Nothing keeps a quarrel going like those ingredients.
First the hatred can only be lessened with some form of reconciliation that had
begun under the Camp David Accord. and drifted away shortly after due to the
assassination of Anwar Sadat of Egypt.

We will not see a peaceful solution in our lifetime period. Israel will take on the
Arabs when ever and where ever they feel threatened and that is simply how it
is.

 

[Goober]

which again says nothing about Israel's supposed right to exist. Israel refuses Palestinians the right of return saying (and I might add very correctly) that such a right would destroy Israel as a Jewish state. The statement of course is supposed to evoke shame at the one making it but in reality all it accomplishes is to highlight how much "right" the state has for existence, that doing the 'just' thing in having the kicked natives and their families return means the end of this supposedly brilliant exemplary democracy which is light unto the nations. Lol.

How many left at the direction of the Arab leadership. Substantial- Others (much smaller number) were forced out to prevent attacks on shaky and easily cut Israeli supply lines and Jews. UNWRA is a waste of time - money-

Israel has to be pulled, pushed, persuaded and told to make a deal-

And the ROR will not happen- Can anyone fault Israel for that.

 

[earth_as_one]

The Arab authorities advised women, children and the elderly to evacuate the war zone. I guess you still haven't absorbed what the New Historians proved. You really should read this interview of Benny Morris:
An Interview with Benny Morris » Counterpunch: Tells the Facts, Names the Names

FYI: Civilians who flee war zones have a right under international law to return to their homes and claim their property. Claiming that civilians who flee war zones rather than staying are choosing to give up their homes defies common sense.