Spanking case before the courts.

Goober

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Brian Hutchinson: Father worried he’ll be jailed or deported if B.C. court rules spanking daughter was assault | Full Comment | National Post

KAMLOOPS, B.C. — He’s a young man from another country. He’s also a father. He was dating the mother when their child was conceived. Their relationship ended before the baby was born four years ago.

Steven — a pseudonym — didn’t abandon the child. He spent time with her, playing with her in the mother’s home, taking her on brief outings. Last summer, Steven agreed to look after their daughter while the mother spent the night with a friend. Something happened: A fuss was made during a diaper change, and Steven struck the little girl. When she still didn’t comply and she attempted to crawl away, he pinned her on the floor, he says. Red marks were left on her leg, and on her back. While the marks remained visible for several days, she suffered no permanent injury.

Steven was arrested and charged with assault causing bodily harm. He spent four nights in the local jail. He’s now on trial in B.C. Provincial Court; a ban on publication prevents disclosure of his identity, and the names of the mother and child. Steven is anxious, worried that he’ll receive a prison sentence or be deported from Canada. He’s also bewildered: He insists that his relationships with the mother and his daughter are fine, and that no harm was done.

Had he applied reasonable, corrective force as a parent, as Canadian law allows? Others — the RCMP, and the Crown — say he went too far in his attempts to subdue his little girl. Judge Stella Frame must decide.
Corporal punishment in any form is contentious; Canadians remain divided over its use, whether it is ever necessary or defensible. After a legal challenge, the Supreme Court of Canada decided in 2004 that spanking is permissible under certain conditions. The child must be at least two years of age, and no older than 12. The punishment must be administered by hand by the child’s parent; no objects may be applied and no blows may be dealt to the head. The spanking must be corrective; it may not be applied in frustration or anger. The amount of force used must also be “transitory and trifling in nature.” It must never be “harmful.”

Of course, what constitutes “harm” is left to interpretation. In this case, the girl’s mother was obviously concerned that some damage had been done. After returning home and finding marks on the little girl, she took her to Royal Inland Hospital, in downtown Kamloops. The attending physician was concerned enough to call in a social worker, who, in turn, contacted the RCMP.
 

SLM

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It's one of those very contentious topics, hard to pin down what crosses the line between correction/discipline and abuse. Personally, I never raised a hand to either of my children aside from a small tap on the back of the hand from time to time. But I'm also loathe to label any parent who gives their child a swat or two on the rear end as an abuser.

From the description it doesn't sound like it was excessive but, at the same time, you have to wonder how well any kind of 'correction' works with a child that's still in diapers. As far as pinning the child down, I can recall having to put eye drops into my sons eyes at the age of two or just younger, it took two adults to hold him steady, and it had to be done firmly as well. If I'd had to do this on my own, it's likely to have left some kind of mark even if only temporary, would I then be an abuser?
 

Goober

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It's one of those very contentious topics, hard to pin down what crosses the line between correction/discipline and abuse. Personally, I never raised a hand to either of my children aside from a small tap on the back of the hand from time to time. But I'm also loathe to label any parent who gives their child a swat or two on the rear end as an abuser.

From the description it doesn't sound like it was excessive but, at the same time, you have to wonder how well any kind of 'correction' works with a child that's still in diapers. As far as pinning the child down, I can recall having to put eye drops into my sons eyes at the age of two or just younger, it took two adults to hold him steady, and it had to be done firmly as well. If I'd had to do this on my own, it's likely to have left some kind of mark even if only temporary, would I then be an abuser?

And the child can twist and turn and before you know it a broken bone, twisted joint. And you would not be at fault- but sick to your stomach.
 

SLM

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And the child can twist and turn and before you know it a broken bone, twisted joint. And you would not be at fault- but sick to your stomach.

I've heard of children having shoulders dislocated because of being jerked back from the edge of traffic or some other danger they were about to bolt out into. An unintended consequence but damage done none the less. Is that abuse? I would say not.

The context of this situation, as described in the article, doesn't sound excessive or abusive to me.
 

Goober

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I've heard of children having shoulders dislocated because of being jerked back from the edge of traffic or some other danger they were about to bolt out into. An unintended consequence but damage done none the less. Is that abuse? I would say not.

The context of this situation, as described in the article, doesn't sound excessive or abusive to me.

And to me as well- Had contact- supported his daughter- so no rush to judgement- I cannot fault the doctor- But time will tell.
 

SLM

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And to me as well- Had contact- supported his daughter- so no rush to judgement- I cannot fault the doctor- But time will tell.

It's not so much the judgement aspect that I think about, we only ever get a part of any story based on a news article anyway.

But I find myself recalling all the times I had to pin down a squirming child in an attempt to diaper him or her. Because sometime you just have to, lol, they're squirming all over the damn place! It's awkward, it's difficult, you may get frustrated but not really angry, but you need to be firm. Where is this line and when does one know when it's been crossed? I just assume we all, for the most part, know in our hearts what's right and what's wrong and we simply don't go too far. But for someone looking in/on us, are the things we do all the time with our children viewed as excessive, can they be viewed that way? That's the kind of thing these stories make me think of.
 

JLM

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Either prison or deportation would be extreme overkill for sure. It's still hard to make a correct judgment, without a lot more details. What is the typical demeanor and temperment of the man? Obviously the mother thought him fit to baby sit the child. There is a lesson here for everyone, while I agree there are definitely times where corporal punishment is needed you have to be very very careful. I do have one issue with the law......a man's hand is too heavy to be striking a small child, something like a willow switch is more appropriate.
 

Goober

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It's not so much the judgement aspect that I think about, we only ever get a part of any story based on a news article anyway.

But I find myself recalling all the times I had to pin down a squirming child in an attempt to diaper him or her. Because sometime you just have to, lol, they're squirming all over the damn place! It's awkward, it's difficult, you may get frustrated but not really angry, but you need to be firm. Where is this line and when does one know when it's been crossed? I just assume we all, for the most part, know in our hearts what's right and what's wrong and we simply don't go too far. But for someone looking in/on us, are the things we do all the time with our children viewed as excessive, can they be viewed that way? That's the kind of thing these stories make me think of.

A line that can due to circumstances but not deliberately crossed.
 

The Old Medic

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A baby in diapers should NEVER, EVER be spanked. They are far too young to even begin to comprehend what is going on, and all it will do is instill fear.

I diapered my daughters, and they squirmed, as all babies did. I NEVER even thought of the possibility of hitting them as babies.

I did spank them once they reached the age of about 5, and could tell the difference between being naughty and behaving as they should. But, spanking was reserved for major transgressions, and they very, very rarely needed it.
 

JLM

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A baby in diapers should NEVER, EVER be spanked. They are far too young to even begin to comprehend what is going on, and all it will do is instill fear.

I diapered my daughters, and they squirmed, as all babies did. I NEVER even thought of the possibility of hitting them as babies.

I did spank them once they reached the age of about 5, and could tell the difference between being naughty and behaving as they should. But, spanking was reserved for major transgressions, and they very, very rarely needed it.

I understood the child to be four. I guess the law apparently sets the age limit at two.