Trayvon Martin: civil rights leaders call for Florida police chief to resign


View Poll Results: Should George Zimmerman be arrested???
No. He acted in self defense 4 12.50%
Yes. Then let the legal system play out 8 25.00%
Dunno. No enough facts in this case yet 9 28.13%
The USA is so Fukked up, where is the pop corn. 11 34.38%
Voters: 32. You may not vote on this poll

CDNBear
#31
Quote: Originally Posted by Gavin MorganView Post

A person who is not racist, a person who would prefer to see and appreciate the content of character of a person, rather than the colour of his skin would have said that if he had a son he "would BE like Trayvon Martin".

Given what's available to the public, about Mr. Martin. I think I'd pass on that.
 
Colpy
+1
#32
Quote: Originally Posted by Ocean BreezeView Post


**********should he be arrested??? Well he KILLED a kid. Seems any killing of a human being requires legal action. The courts can then decide if the killing "was justified". and on what basis?

NO

WRONG

ABSOLUTELY the antithesis of the basic premise of English Common Law.

You first must determine that a CRIME has been committed before you prosecute a man. Otherwise it is not prosecution, it is persecution.
 
Ocean Breeze
#33
Quote: Originally Posted by ColpyView Post

NO

WRONG

ABSOLUTELY the antithesis of the basic premise of English Common Law.

You first must determine that a CRIME has been committed before you prosecute a man. Otherwise it is not prosecution, it is persecution.

technically, you are right of course. I do so wish this principle was followed in ALL cases... be they local, national or international.

Not a stretch to think this young man was "assassinated". Given that the US is in favor of such "justice"... this one could be one for the legal scholars ......

Let's do a what if:. what if the young man had shot and killed Zimmerman ?? In self defense of course on the grounds that Zimmerman was a threat and had been stalking him.

what do you think public opinion would be on that?? Would the principles of law that you mention appy?? There is a history of the law being used and abused to favor one or the other depending on the bias of the people doing the judging .
 
Colpy
#34
Quote: Originally Posted by Ocean BreezeView Post

technically, you are right of course. I do so wish this principle was followed in ALL cases... be they local, national or international.

Not a stretch to think this young man was "assassinated". Given that the US is in favor of such "justice"... this one could be one for the legal scholars ......

Let's do a what if:. what if the young man had shot and killed Zimmerman ?? In self defense of course on the grounds that Zimmerman was a threat and had been stalking him.

what do you think public opinion would be on that?? Would the principles of law that you mention appy?? There is a history of the law being used and abused to favor one or the other depending on the bias of the people doing the judging .

I don't know....I would certainly hope that the same rules would apply....but I am completely unsure about this case.
 
Ocean Breeze
#35
Colpy: lets go with your uncertainty. What factors are contributing to it?? thx.
 
Colpy
+1
#36
Quote: Originally Posted by Ocean BreezeView Post

Colpy: lets go with your uncertainty. What factors are contributing to it?? thx.

The clash of stories:

Did Zimmerman run the kid to ground?

Did Zimmerman attack the kid?? Or did the kid attack Zimmerman??

Had Zimmerman drawn a weapon???

Did the conflict take place next to Zimmerman's car?

Was Zimmerman on the ground being beaten??

Did the police decide not to arrest, or the District Attorney (prosecution) decide not to press charges?

Too many conflicting reports, and that makes me unwilling to challenge the decision not to arrest.....
 
Ocean Breeze
#37
Colpy:exellent and very valid questions..
 
Locutus
#38
 
Niflmir
#39
Quote: Originally Posted by ColpyView Post

The clash of stories:

Did Zimmerman run the kid to ground?

Did Zimmerman attack the kid?? Or did the kid attack Zimmerman??

Had Zimmerman drawn a weapon???

Did the conflict take place next to Zimmerman's car?

Was Zimmerman on the ground being beaten??

Did the police decide not to arrest, or the District Attorney (prosecution) decide not to press charges?

Too many conflicting reports, and that makes me unwilling to challenge the decision not to arrest.....

Yeah, but due process says that those are the things a court and a jury is supposed to decide, so that the people can actually know what happened.

What we have here is a very public event with the judge and jury being the police (I consider a DA to be part of the police) and the investigation was not public. Self defense is a legal defense against homicide; at face value, when a person shoots another person, it is a crime (it is by definition homicide) and the individual must prove that it was in self defense.
 
EagleSmack
+1
#40
Quote: Originally Posted by eh1ehView Post

You know, black people have been afraid of white people in hoods a lot longer than whites have been afraid of blacks in hoods.

What does that have to do with a Latino killing an African-American?
 
DaSleeper
#41
Quote: Originally Posted by EagleSmackView Post

What does that have to do with a Latino killing an African-American?

P C knows no bounds.....
 
Just the Facts
#42
Quote: Originally Posted by Bar SinisterView Post

Tell you what. Why don't we had a little contest? You list the number of confirmed cases of gun ownership actually making the US safer and I will list incidents that show that it is not. Care to take me up on that?

lol that's a fair challenge. The newspapers are chock full of stories about crimes that didn't happen. Also, I'm pretty sure the FBI has an entire division just tracking statistics of criminals just walking by because they saw their potential victim was armed.
 
Colpy
#43
Quote: Originally Posted by Bar SinisterView Post

Tell you what. Why don't we had a little contest? You list the number of confirmed cases of gun ownership actually making the US safer and I will list incidents that show that it is not. Care to take me up on that?

Just the Facts is correct. Defensive use of a firearm is achieved with no shots fired 19 incidents out of twenty, and thus rarely makes the papers.........

But...

Quote:

The National Self-Defense Survey was the first survey specifically designed to estimate the frequency of defensive gun uses. It asked all respondents about both their own uses and those of other household members, inquired about all gun types, excluded uses against animals or connected with occupational duties, and limited recall periods to one and five years. Equally importantly, it established, with detailed questioning, whether persons claiming a defensive gun use had actually confronted an adversary (as distinct from, say, merely investigating a suspicious noise in the backyard), actually used their guns in some way, such as, at minimum, threatening their adversaries (as distinct from merely owning or carrying a gun for defensive reasons), and had done so in connection with what they regarded as a specific crime being committed against them.
The National Self-Defense Survey indicated that there were 2.5 million incidents of defensive gun use per year in the U.S. during the 1988-1993 period. This is probably a conservative estimate, for two reasons. First, cases of respondents intentionally withholding reports of genuine defensive-gun uses were probably more common than cases of respondents reporting incidents that did not occur or that were not genuinely defensive. Second, the survey covered only adults age 18 and older, thereby excluding all defensive gun uses involving adolescents, the age group most...

Quote has been trimmed
Guns and Self-Defense by Gary Kleck, Ph.D. (external - login to view)
 
Locutus
+1
#44
 
Cannuck
#45
Quote: Originally Posted by NiflmirView Post

.... and the individual must prove that it was in self defense.

The individual does not have to prove a thing.
 
CDNBear
#46
Post #1565149 - Re: Trayvon Martin: civil rights leaders call for Florida police chief to resign (external - login to view) Bad Cannuck



Good luck.
 
Locutus
+2
#47
Trayvons' myspace page with links to several outstanding citizen top friends with wannabe gangster/thug poses/guns/hand signs and other good clean fun:

T M (



 
CDNBear
+3
#48
Post #1565631 - Re: Trayvon Martin: civil rights leaders call for Florida police chief to resign (external - login to view) Bad Cannuck



Awww, poor Jimmy, got tired of getting PWND, now resorts to running around handing out neg reps.

Post #1565638 - Re: Trayvon Martin: civil rights leaders call for Florida police chief to resign (external - login to view) Bad Cannuck



LOL, I love it! You got PWND so many times, and this is all you have left.

You take the net to seriously Jimmy. I blame your admitted stupidity.
 
Niflmir
+2
#49
Quote: Originally Posted by CannuckView Post

The individual does not have to prove a thing.

Maybe I should not have used the words "at face value". Look up the meaning of "prima facie" and see for yourself who has to prove what. Self defense is a legal defense but it is up to the individual who wishes to use it to prove it. There is never a presumption of self defense.
 
CDNBear
+2
#50
Quote: Originally Posted by CannuckView Post

The individual does not have to prove a thing.

...

Quote: Originally Posted by NiflmirView Post

Maybe I should not have used the words "at face value". Look up the meaning of "prima facie" and see for yourself who has to prove what. Self defense is a legal defense but it is up to the individual who wishes to use it to prove it. There is never a presumption of self defense.

 
Tonington
#51
Quote: Originally Posted by LocutusView Post

Trayvons' myspace page with links to several outstanding citizen

That Zimmerman sure is a fine upstanding citizen; resisting arrest, assaulting an officer, and two counts of domestic abuse!
 
Locutus
+2
#52
Quote: Originally Posted by ToningtonView Post

That Zimmerman sure is a fine upstanding citizen; resisting arrest, assaulting an officer, and two counts of domestic abuse!

Guess you're the first here to say so.



He was a wannabe cop, a buckaroo. Perhaps even a racist Hispanic who killed a black man.

Let the evidence sort out the results.

But the mainstream media troll that's happening (and happily swallowed and tolerated) is a sad indication of the state of folks' gullibility.

 
Locutus
+2
#53
Quote: Originally Posted by ToningtonView Post

That Zimmerman sure is a fine upstanding citizen; resisting arrest, assaulting an officer, and two counts of domestic abuse!

Guess you're the first here to say so.



He was a wannabe cop, a buckaroo. Perhaps even a racist Hispanic who killed a black man.

Let the evidence sort out the results.

But the mainstream media troll that's happening (and happily swallowed and tolerated) is a sad indication of the state of folks' gullibility.

 
gopher
#54
Quote:

Locutus (external - login to view)Yuuuuuuuuuuuuup


(external - login to view)
(external - login to view)
(external - login to view)
#23Re: Trayvon Martin: civil rights leaders call for Florida police chief to resign

1 day ago

Report: Witness Says Trayvon Martin Attacked George Zimmerman



A new witness to the Trayvon Martin shooting has come forward, claiming the Florida teen did in fact attack neighborhood watch volunteer George Zimmerman, according to media reports.
(Related: Report: New Audio Surfaces of Trayvon Martin Shooter (external - login to view)
Zimmerman has said he shot the 17-year-old in self-defense, though Martin was reportedly carrying only a bag of Skittles and an iced tea when he was killed. Despite a loud national outcry, Zimmerman has not been arrested or charged in Martinís death.
According to Tampa Bay Fox affiliate WTVT-TV (external - login to view), what the witness says he saw could bolster Zimmermanís claim that he shot Martin in self-defense:

The report came from Fox but it has yet to identify the so called witness. Interesting that ABC made an extensive report tonight but it made no mention of this. If this guy is for real, where is he? Let him come forward and this will settle the matter (if it is true and not another Fox network fabrication).
 
Ocean Breeze
#55
Quote: Originally Posted by gopherView Post

The report came from Fox but it has yet to identify the so called witness. Interesting that ABC made an extensive report tonight but it made no mention of this. If this guy is for real, where is he? Let him come forward and this will settle the matter (if it is true and not another Fox network fabrication).

too bad the key witness is dead. Let's consider the possibility that Martin did attack Zimmerman. What was his motive?? What prompted him to do that?? IF he did........Zimmerman would have seen that Martin was unarmed. If he was armed , why didn't he use a gun??? IF he did.....it suggests he would have used his fists. IF so.......that is visual proof that he was not armed. IF that was the case........why didn't zimmerman just use HIS own fists.??? Why shoot him?? That is an action of extreme that does not seem to be warranted.

It almost seems that Zimmerman wanted to use the gun. Didn't realize that neighborhood watch types of organizations carry guns.

OTOH........given the culture of guns and violence that is so florid now......it is almost the "norm".

wonder how many more "witnesses " will come out of the woodwork now. This situation STINKS like a neglected sewer.
 
Colpy
#56
Quote: Originally Posted by gopherView Post

The report came from Fox but it has yet to identify the so called witness. Interesting that ABC made an extensive report tonight but it made no mention of this. If this guy is for real, where is he? Let him come forward and this will settle the matter (if it is true and not another Fox network fabrication).

Not quite.

Considering the fact that Zimmerman has a price on his head (!!!!!!), one can hardly blame a Zimmerman-sympathetic witness for being shy.

Quote: Originally Posted by ColpyView Post

Not quite.

Considering the fact that Zimmerman has a price on his head (!!!!!!), one can hardly blame a Zimmerman-sympathetic witness for being shy.



Soooo much going on!

I don't know what the truth is.......

But I seriously am beginning to doubt the MSM.
 
damngrumpy
#57
I was torn between yes arrest him and wait for all the facts in the case. All we really know
is something happened and a kid is dead. There has been no release of serious evidence
and there has been no trial. If democratic societies are governed by laws we have to wait
for an explanation of what authorities believe happened.
I for one do not like the elected judicial system because it lends itself to a rush to judgment
and worse being forced to take action in the face of pressure groups. The truth will come
out.
My own opinion on what i have heard is the law is the biggest problem here as it allows any
number of actions based on one's personal opinion or feeling. I always thought the law
should be about facts not feelings. Shooting people, especially if they are unarmed is not the
answer. If both had a gun that is different. in this case the dead kid doesn't appear to have
had a gun, but someone felt threatened so they killed him. Even if the defendant got a little
bruised up, if the kid had no gun shooting him is not an option and we don't know what
prompted the deceased to do what he did either.
All in all, there is a big gap in the factual information that has not been heard.
 
Colpy
#58
Quote: Originally Posted by damngrumpyView Post

I was torn between yes arrest him and wait for all the facts in the case. All we really know
is something happened and a kid is dead. There has been no release of serious evidence
and there has been no trial. If democratic societies are governed by laws we have to wait
for an explanation of what authorities believe happened.
I for one do not like the elected judicial system because it lends itself to a rush to judgment
and worse being forced to take action in the face of pressure groups. The truth will come
out.
My own opinion on what i have heard is the law is the biggest problem here as it allows any
number of actions based on one's personal opinion or feeling. I always thought the law
should be about facts not feelings. Shooting people, especially if they are unarmed is not the
answer. If both had a gun that is different. in this case the dead kid doesn't appear to have
had a gun, but someone felt threatened so they killed him. Even if the defendant got a little
bruised up, if the kid had no gun shooting him is not an option and we don't know what
prompted the deceased to do what he did either.
All in all, there is a big gap in the factual information that has not been heard.

I agree with most of your post.....but for one thing....if you attack and grapple with an armed man you DO have a gun.....his.

Many many police officers have been shot with their own guns, and I sincerely doubt Zimmerman has either a snatch-proof holster nor training in weapons retention.

Playing the Devil's Advocate here......
 
Colpy
#59
Very interesting....

Michael Smerconish: Tale of the Trayvon Martin Case 911 Calls (external - login to view)
 
Tonington
+1
#60
Quote: Originally Posted by LocutusView Post

Guess you're the first here to say so.

Well it's interesting, Trayvon's friends posting pictures with guns...who cares? That's a total distraction, and not remotely relevant.

And as for Zimmerman's bloody nose, it's funny that Zimmerman get's to use the stand your ground law, but what about Trayvon, the one who was chased down walking home in his own neighbourhood?

Media trolls...yeah right.
 
Locutus
+1
#61
Quote: Originally Posted by ToningtonView Post

Well it's interesting, Trayvon's friends posting pictures with guns...who cares? That's a total distraction, and not remotely relevant.

And as for Zimmerman's bloody nose, it's funny that Zimmerman get's to use the stand your ground law, but what about Trayvon, the one who was chased down walking home in his own neighbourhood?

Media trolls...yeah right.


I don't care if they hang this Zimmerdood if he's actually guilty of something. So far they have eyewitnesses. If he makes it out clean, so be it. If not, I still don't care very much.

As for the angelic little boy. Right. Probably smoked some weed, maybe sold a bit for cash. Big whoop. But also hung out with others in his posse as teens do to belong, to look cool, tough. But maybe he wasn't sweetie either. Either way, outdated school pics pasted on every news outlet slant things in that fresh faced boy vs. hardened criminal kinda way. Might as well show him as baby in his mommas' arms. Fair is fair when it comes to our buckaroo too.

The media (and the usual suspects) portrayal of the Hispanic guy as the nasty orange jumpsuit convict and the nice young teen boy (6'3") as a babyfaced victim is a troll. Plain and simple. News, and trash news sells.

So does racial divisiveness and social discord. Those that blindly buy into that are simply stupid and easily manipulated.
 
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